Can use some guidance on best DIY venders for a 10-15 kW grid-tied system

[mswlogo]

Howdy folks,

Hope I've come to the right place.

Little bit of background. I had solar installed by a local company in MA ~5 years ago.
7.6kw LG Panel with SolarEdge Optimizers and Inverter.
It produced about 8 MWh and just about covered all usage. No battery with 80% Net Metering
20-25 year warranty on everything parts and labor.

Moved into a new home in NH. Knowing I will go solar I went all electric. GeoThermal, Electric Hot Water, Induction Stove, Electric Dryer.

This house is a little tricky to get solar on for a few reasons.
Has a porches around most of it with metal roof and low pitch.
Fair amount of trees. Some can be pruned. It's near water and there are strict rules.
I had large eves put on the house.
It's a Post & Beam (no attic and SIP panels for the roof (solid foam)).

I don't have a great picture but I want to use the detached garage for some of it. 24' x 20' with 12 : 12 roof (faces south).
First photo faces East (note garage on the right that I'd like to use)
Second photo faces West

I've got an estimate from SunRun $32k for 9 KW (no battery). 23 390 watt panels.
They put 15 on the Shed Roof and 8 on the garage.
I'm very concerned about punching holes through roof, and exterior pipes.
If I do it, I'll take my time and find a way to do it with taste. I might even go inside and open/create a chase for conduits.

Pretty pricey for 9 KW, 10 year warranty and below avg customer rating and below par warranty.
Tesla canceled me, twice. First time because house wasn't complete.
Second time, I'm not sure. I know it won't be the most efficient location. So ROI will be way out there, that's ok.
Another local company, wanted like $52K for 12KW system.

So now considering DIY. I have done a far amount of electrical work over the years pools, full services, all passed inspection.

What are the known good DIY companies to work with? Mostly concerned about quality of Panels/Inverters
I'd like to get the pure black panels.

With the garage detached I thought it would be easier to go with two inverters. Rather than run DC underground to the house.
There are already two 2" PVC pipes available for what's needed.
Have a Leviton 200A Panel with 225A buss plenty of room.

Currently using 1800 kWh in Jan (not very cold winter) but I have some more insulating to do.

With 440 watt panels I can get 10 KW

Inspections are pretty thin here. All they inspected for the entire house was the leach field.
I'd really like to push what I can to the limit (within reason) on the garage.

Min 10 Kw, would love 12 Kw and be in heaven with 15 Kw.

SunRun looked at ground based and they said no way. Too much shade.

Garage is old but sound, but roof needs some beefing up. True 2x6 rafters on 2ft centers.

 

[DIYrich]

alte store. They are online, and have a store in boxborough, ma.

 

[Think About It]

That's a beautiful house. Based on the pictures, I think it's going to be a challenge. It seems like even roof mounted panels would have a lot of shading and a ground mount is not doable. Also, the tilt angle and azimuth will dramatically effect the panels performance. I would check and see if Google Project Sunroof knows your address. If you have a drone, you could take aerial photos at different times of the day to determine how much shading and sunlight you have. You have many different roof planes. You should find out from your local AHJ what type of fire access paths they require. Then figure out the best size panels to use, both physical size and wattage. Use PVWatts calculator to get an idea of how much power you can produce. The downside of PVWatts is that it only allows all panels to be at the same tilt angle and azimuth, so you may have to run it several times for each roof plane and add the results. I have found this tool to be very accurate.

I did my complete system myself, including design and install. Just for kicks, I called two of the largest Solar companies and had them come out and give me a quote. They were clueless. Neither of them could tell me how much power I was expected to produce, just how many KW of panels they proposed to install. I installed more panels and larger wattage panels than either of them said that they could. I've heard many stories where solar companies installed systems and the homeowner never produced anywhere near the amount of power the Solar company told them they would produce.

The point here is that a good solar system starts with a good design. Your system presents many challenges so the design is even more important. There are some reputable DIY Solar and other companies (search) that will assist you with your design. Don't take everything they tell you as fact. Ask plenty of questions. If you're not confident with what they are proposing, ask about it on this forum. This community has many very knowledgeable members that are willing to help.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Do you mean a supplier that will take a ‘survey’ to spec and provide equipment? Or a mail order company?

Where in NH? Mass to NH, especially above Laconia, there’s a lot of difference in sun hours, cloudy periods, and every inch of latitude N is an effect on performance.

I’d be inclined to maximize the garage, first. With series panels the DC to the house is a non-issue.

Knowing I will go solar I went all electric

Well you are built and site work ship has sailed; but you have the empty conduit; good. Putting the equipment adjacent to your service and subpanel may even save some money and certainly save logistical effort and time.

What I would do is place panels on the garage at the ~15* to optimize for winter with maybe the rack mounts built to allow tilt for summer. Snow IS an issue so vertical panels would avert that with a bit less production available but no endless days of zero production.

Buy a brand of equipment that would facilitate adding a second SCC/AIO in parallel and start with the garage.
Why? Because the house is going to be complicated. Nice house but architecture of the roof is limiting for both space and it’s easterly facing. You can observe and plan in the next five months and figure out your best practice and esthetic compromises.

As far as perforation of the roof: that looks to be asphalt shingles. Plus the usable space is at issue.
First choice would be ground mount imho. Cleaning out some of that second growth and facing southerly or SW is ideal.
Roof mounting: if you plan a mounting system and have it welded up out of aluminum you can provide optimal mounting for the shingles to not be compromised and polyurethane sealant will outlast the shingles. What would worry me on that (?5/12?) pitch is ice damming under the panels. But I couldn’t live with the suboptimal compass facing AND the snow accumulation issue. That’s me. Grew up in NH live in Vermont now; northern New England sensibilities are deep in me.

As far as companies to supply equipment- well that depends on whether you want Mercedes/Cadillac-tier equipment, or if Chevy/Hyundai-level equipment is acceptable. I’d probably not buy top tier, but no way I’d buy merely on low price. Buy a stable brand that integrates well and scales without consulting a rocket scientist.
Don’t neglect to remember these national installers and many design/sell equipment vendors, and a lot of local ‘installers’ are at 40 margins on up to 70-80 margins in some cases, and virtually none of those companies have sustainable business models once new installs decline in volume: the warranty you pay dearly for with their markups may not exist down the road.
Being in and around the ‘sales’ field in the residential construction sector for most of my life I’ve been prospected a few times by installer outfits, several national. The robust commissions, bonus programs and cushy management perks provide little to no consumer benefit when their entire business model is new-installation centric. That’s why you get those $50k quotes.

DIY means buying equipment with no volume discount, but the backloaded savings on install, labor, and overhead are substantial- which is why diy makes sense to so many people.

My opinions. YMMV

 

[mswlogo]

Great responses and many comments are inline with my thinking. Yes, maximize garage first. I may move the garage, but logistics on that are complex. I’ll do what ever I can get done as the opportunity presents itself. My time, finding the right people and tax incentives.

I do have drone shots, but I don’t like sharing my public location and didn’t have time to strip GPS Meta data out.

Because of so many trees I thought optimizing performance for when sun is high I thought the shed roof portion might have a decent bang for the buck. Would be almost out of view too. Probably 10AM to 2PM

I expect less than great output due to location constraints. I can take some trees, but it’s a balance of privacy and you may laugh, getting too much sun. Location has a beautiful balance right now, of sun, shade, breeze. I need to be careful I don’t mess that up. Gorgeous sun sets 10 months of the year with out getting fried.

I’d love a ground based setup and have not completely ruled that out.

I’m in central NH, lakes region. I found output so low even in MA during the winter that worrying about snow cover is not worth it. I had western exposure there. Just add more panels (if I can find the space).

Anyone know of a good free planner tool for layout that I can swap sizes? And it figures in proper spacing etc.

We had literally no inspections on the house. Not sure if Solar will be different. I assume electric company Eversource does some level of inspection. Why I’m asking is I really want to push garage to the limit. Even let them hang a few inches over the edge if I can cram on another row or column. Large companies are really conservative on that.

In MA I think an inspector might not allow anything on garage. I’m 99% sure it will be fine. I do plan to beef it up some. But I’m not gonna go crazy. They went a little overboard on beefing up my roof in MA. If anything, panels reduced snow load because snow eventually slide off.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

found output so low even in MA during the winter that worrying about snow cover is not worth it.

I’m getting 25-30% of typical max output right now. Hazy partly sunny skies, 20mph winds, -13*F. Vertical panels. Northern Vermont
My uncle in Chelmsford Mass gets average 40% over the winter, less Nov-Dec, and has only had two billable months in 12 years of solar. One of those months they were in Florida and panels didn’t get snow raked.
Optimizing reception of the sun’s broadcast will let you hear sun-radio more clearly…

If anything, panels reduced snow load because snow eventually slide off.

The calc of psf for your zone should account for snow load, then add the dead load psf of the panels, and factor a bit for uplift. You’ll want at least L/360 equivalent and often you can just place a couple lvl’s midway of the rafter run to effectively shorten the span mathematically rather than squeezing in sistered rafters.

In MA I think an inspector might not allow anything on garage

If you accommodate the 85psf (or whatever your latitude and elevation call for) the advantage is that if you have an ‘event’ your insurance won’t cancel you.

thought the shed roof portion might have a decent bang for the buck

Can’t be sure from the pics but I’m guessing that it’s flat enough that you’ll be giving up nearly the same amount of watts as vertical panels but eh- I don’t know.
Nevertheless that will be a very low visual impact.

central NH, lakes region

I grew up in Loudon, Concord. Have family in Chichester, Haverhill, and Woodsville area. It’s gotten a little too citified around Tilton, Sanbornton, Laconia for me?

 

[Solar Guppy]

That is not a home for DYI, you need a pro for at least the installation, the roof angles and envelope construction creates some special considerations.

I would suggest you find a local installer that has done homes similar construction before and not a SunRun type installer, they are the minimum quality, highest markup types.

First place you start is with the Electric company and then work back from there, here is their netmeter page and they may have recommendations on local installers

 

[12VoltInstalls]

That is not a home for DYI, you need a pro for at least the installation,

???

So… with over thirty years in the construction industry I don’t know what a ‘pro’ would do any differently other than write a bill.

When I do stuff myself (diy) I have the same or better results than a pro, in general. A lot of the time it’s faster, too, but when “pro” takes less time than I I get concerned with what shortcuts they took.

The only thing I might do is have the sip manufacturer provide load and uplift data and write a $150-$200 check to an engineer to confirm panel mounting is fine.

 

[Solar Guppy]

???

So… with over thirty years in the construction industry I don’t know what a a ‘pro’ would do any differently other than write a bill.

If your 30 years were writing the bills, were your customers wrong for having you do work?

What is wrong with paying someone to install a top quality Solar system if you have the funds? I would stay away from the Sunrun / Tesla high mark-up options, but pay a local pro isn't a bad choice when you know nothing about racking, codes doing site analysis in a difficult multi shaded lot.

All trades deserve respect for what they do and when you hire one and get a quality out come, for most is the right choice.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

All trades deserve respect for what they do and when you hire one and get a quality out come, for most is the right choice

Not going to disagree, but this is a diy forum after all.

If your 30 years were writing the bills, were your customers wrong for having you do work?

Sometimes- people get to choose how to spend their money.
Nevertheless my biggest mistakes were not going after bigger jobs and hiring 2-3 crew, and thinking big; doing every aspect of the back office myself, and number one: not charging near enough. In hindsight probably I’ve averaged 50% or less in billing what I should have. I didn’t respect the stuff I did that was ‘easy’ for me.

In the context of diysolarforum I’m not concerned if he diy’s his system. It’s not that complicated and the OP is aware of code and loading and wiring parameters and seems to be filling in the blanks.

If he can spend the money but saves $20k maybe he can benefit a local food shelf, a foster care program, house fire victims, or an alternative unwed mothers program or something with some of the savings.
It’s a winner as far as I can tell.

 

[Solar Guppy]

Anyone know of a good free planner tool for layout that I can swap sizes? And it figures in proper spacing etc.

This uses Google Earth, one can add obstacles with user defined heights and see shading at any date/time. The image is my home today and I made a group of the trees set to 45ft that are to the south east. Move the sun and see how the shadows cast. This will quickly give to ideas for any location ( lat / long ) in Google Earth




Another one, just put an your address from Google Project Sunroof my help but if new construction may not

 

[mswlogo]

???

So… with over thirty years in the construction industry I don’t know what a ‘pro’ would do any differently other than write a bill.

When I do stuff myself (diy) I have the same or better results than a pro, in general. A lot of the time it’s faster, too, but when “pro” takes less time than I I get concerned with what shortcuts they took.

The only thing I might do is have the sip manufacturer provide load and uplift data and write a $150-$200 check to an engineer to confirm panel mounting is fine.

I totally agree. The Pro’s totally did crap on electrical, plumbing, roof, siding, construction, painting, you name it. I stopped them and made the redo things over and over. You’re doing it wrong pal. Reworked a ton myself and I need to redo a lot more.

On average DIY will do the job better than a “Pro”. Because it’s their home and time/profit isn’t conflicting with quality.

I would have loved to build the whole house my self but I just didn’t have that luxury to not work in my own profession to pay for it.

And don’t get me started on how much gouging is going on with the “pro’s”.

Since the house is unique, the local guys are just as clueless at handling it as the big companies. At least the large companies aren’t gouging.

I’ve probably dealt with 5 Solar companies. None give me confidence they know what they are doing. One local company wanted $52K for a 10kw setup.

 

[mswlogo]

If your 30 years were writing the bills, were your customers wrong for having you do work?

What is wrong with paying someone to install a top quality Solar system if you have the funds? I would stay away from the Sunrun / Tesla high mark-up options, but pay a local pro isn't a bad choice when you know nothing about racking, codes doing site analysis in a difficult multi shaded lot.

All trades deserve respect for what they do and when you hire one and get a quality out come, for most is the right choice.

I have less respect for trades than I ever have. The only thing that was done well was excavation and geo thermal. Both of which I directly subcontracted. Also paid a fortune for. $72k for a closed loop 4 ton geo thermal. I don’t think I could do my own drilling But I did have to do a little rework there too.

 

[mswlogo]

This uses Google Earth, one can add obstacles with user defined heights and see shading at any date/time. The image is my home today and I made a group of the trees set to 45ft that are to the south east. Move the sun and see how the shadows cast. This will quickly give to ideas for any location ( lat / long ) in Google Earth


View attachment 133043

Another one, just put an your address from Google Project Sunroof my help but if new construction may not

Anything that uses satellite is useless. Since a lot was cleared recently and new construction. Because of the complications with the roof my options are limited.

I just want a tool to experiment with layout on the roofs I plan to use. Something that knows standard panel sizes, spacing requirements and maybe even national code requirements (e.g. how close to the edge you can go).

 

[Think About It]

I just want a tool to experiment with layout on the roofs I plan to use. Something that knows standard panel sizes, spacing requirements and maybe even national code requirements (e.g. how close to the edge you can go).

Let me know if you find it. I had similar challenges. Endlessly researching panel sizes to maximize space.

 

[Ampster]

If you do not need over the counter advice, I have had luck with Greentech Renewables. They cater to the trade so you have to know what you are looking for but their prices are very good and being able to pick up racking, inverters and solar panels from stock in hand is worth the drive to their nearest facility.

 

[Ampster]

I would stay away from the Sunrun / Tesla high mark-up options

I agree about Sunrun, but the Tesla solar quote I got was very competitive. It may depend on the the local market and in many jurisdictions they are only quoting Solar combined with solar. There are other issues about service and timing with Tesla if you do not have a cookie cutter install.

 

[mswlogo]

I agree about Sunrun, but the Tesla solar quote I got was very competitive. It may depend on the the local market and in many jurisdictions they are only quoting Solar combined with solar. There are other issues about service and timing with Tesla if you do not have a cookie cutter install.

This is not a cookie cutter install for sure and that's the problem with Tesla. Tesla prices are really good.

 

[Ampster]

This is not a cookie cutter install for sure and that's the problem with Tesla.

I got an online quote two years ago just before they stopped linking solar installs with Powerwall sales. I knew I needed to change out and move my service panel so I opted to hire a good friend to do the service panel work because he had good connections with PG&E. Another acquaintance did the roof work and I wired the micros from there to my two new subpanels which I did the work on to pick which circuits to swing to which sub panel. I did use the Tesla quote as a benchmark and I did come under that doing most of the work myself. It was a new home purchase for us and with two EVs my usage was $200-300 per month and I wanted to manage the process to get it installed a quickly as possible. The panel change out and move would have made it a frustrating process with Tesla and added a significant change order for the service panel and the new sub panels.

 

[42OhmsPA]

Anything that uses satellite is useless. Since a lot was cleared recently and new construction. Because of the complications with the roof my options are limited.

I just want a tool to experiment with layout on the roofs I plan to use. Something that knows standard panel sizes, spacing requirements and maybe even national code requirements (e.g. how close to the edge you can go).

Have you looked at the ironridge design tool? I used that to get an idea then bought Tamarack racking ?