diy solar

diy solar

EG4 6000 XP - Clarification on "RECOMMENDED MAXIMUM SOLAR INPUT - 10,000W"

itech20

New Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2023
Messages
20
Location
Michigan
Greetings all. I’d again like to appeal to the wider group here to get some informed technical feedback about the 6000XP.

For this particular question, I’m actually tempted to tag one of our friends from Signature Solar, whose presence on these boards I’m grateful for.

Here is the situation in a nutshell.

I have an existing garage with a large roof surface. It’s not ideally oriented but it exists. It’s part of an off grid property near Manistee Michigan.

With the right panels, I can fit about 12 kW of solar on this garage roof surface. Because of the sub-optimal orientation, pvwatts tells me these will never produce more than about 9800 watts of actual output, and will only rarely go above the 6000 XPs rated “maximum usable power” of 8000 watts.

I’m perfectly happy with this. Panels and mounting hardware are relatively inexpensive compared to the effort, expense and property disruption of creating a ground mounted array with a more favorable orientation. I'd prefer to have the extra capacity to stretch my potential production as much as possible.

My string calculations also fall within the voltage and current limits listed in the 6000 XP specs.

There is one confusingly worded portion of the inverter specs that is giving me pause. The line reads:

“RECOMMENDED MAXIMUM SOLAR INPUT 10,000W”

There is no further mention of this limit that I can find elsewhere in the manual.

I can, on the one hand, assert that my array, although it will have a nameplate capacity of 12,000W actually satisfies this restriction, given that its actual max input based on geography and orientation will remain below 10,000W. I am further comforted by the fact that the string calculations are within spec.

However, I have some nagging concern that this 10,000W limit derives from some other poorly explained characteristic of the hardware.

Any informed opinions here? Am I good to go given the actual array or should I worry about the excess nameplate capacity?
 
Given that the short circuit input current peaks at 25A and the maximum DC input is 480V, the MPPT could technically reach a maximum of 12,000W per MPPT. Nevertheless, it would only be capable of utilizing 4,000W per MPPT.
 
Given that the short circuit input current peaks at 25A and the maximum DC input is 480V, the MPPT could technically reach a maximum of 12,000W per MPPT. Nevertheless, it would only be capable of utilizing 4,000W per MPPT.
Many thanks for the reply Jared.

I'm interested in this both from a very specific/practical "not damaging the equipment perspective" but also from a "listed equipment must be installed in line with the manufacturer's instructions" perspective.

In that spirit, I'm curious to know if, speaking with your EG4 hat on, would you support this statement (or something similar):

"An array with string voltage and current within the stated limits, and with an expected output based on location and orientation that will not exceed 10,000W, satisfies the recommendation as written in the manual, even if the theoretical/nameplate production is higher."
 
For what it's worth I am in the Midwest (OH) with a 9KW Bifacial Array.

Anything more than 3800w per PV input (200-230v) the 6000xp will switch to grid bypass and I receive "Fault E024: PV short".

After a few minutes the 6000xp will recover, switch back to Solar/Batt, then fault again a few minutes later.

I removed several panels from PV inputs until the 2nd 6000xp arrives.
 
For what it's worth I am in the Midwest (OH) with a 9KW Bifacial Array.

Anything more than 3800w per PV input (200-230v) the 6000xp will switch to grid bypass and I receive "Fault E024: PV short".

After a few minutes the 6000xp will recover, switch back to Solar/Batt, then fault again a few minutes later.

I removed several panels from PV inputs until the 2nd 6000xp arrives.

Would you be able to post a few pictures of this? I believe there may be a problem with the MPPT or a short in the PV connections. A few things to try would be removing each PV input and testing on each MPPT.
 
Sure,

Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Issue only happens during full sun, cloudy days I can run all panels.

2x 5S2P - 450w

Each 5x Series is fused then parallel in combiner boxes. I am able to switch off either string and charge without issue.

Maybe it is due to SOC of batteries?

I have a 2nd 6000xp on order and previously ran a pair of EG4 6500's.

Thanks,

1711468776505.png

TimeStatusvpv1vpv2vpv3vBatsocppv1ppv2ppv3pChargepDisCharge
2024-03-17 12:32:180xC0204198.6411.654.283%
2682​
3457​
0​
5793​
0​
2024-03-17 12:35:210xC0200197.8411.454.284%
2833​
3444​
0​
5923​
0​
2024-03-17 12:38:220xC0198.3198.1411.554.285%
3001​
3476​
0​
6129​
0​
2024-03-17 12:41:240xC0193198.8411.354.386%
3102​
3461​
0​
6219​
0​
2024-03-17 12:44:300xC0202.6197.3411.254.387%
3198​
3432
0​
6256​
0​
2024-03-17 12:47:310xC0198.9194.341154.287%
3165​
3384​
0​
6178​
0​
2024-03-17 12:50:330xC0204.5199.5422.254.388%
3295​
3379​
0​
6293​
0​
2024-03-17 12:53:350xC0199.2197.1411.254.289%
3412​
3430​
0​
5470​
0​
2024-03-17 12:56:400x11233.2234.7292.953.789%
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
2024-03-17 12:59:410xC0203.1200.3406.254.290%
3565​
3236​
0​
6287​
0​
2024-03-17 13:02:460xC0222.5224.6406.453.890%
1892​
954​
0​
2533​
0​
2024-03-17 13:05:490xC0206.2203421.854.391%
3441​
3242​
0​
6291​
0​
2024-03-17 13:08:510xC0208.4203.3421.254.491%
3353​
3252​
0​
6293​
0​
2024-03-17 13:11:550xC0204.1199.4422.154.292%
3102​
3463​
0​
6243​
0​
2024-03-17 13:14:560xC0209.6202.8421.554.593%
3356​
3247​
0​
6292​
0​
 
Last edited:
Sure,

Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Issue only happens during full sun, cloudy days I can run all panels.

2x 5S2P - 450w

Each 5x Series is fused then parallel in combiner boxes. I am able to switch off either string and charge without issue.

Maybe it is due to SOC of batteries?

Thanks,

View attachment 204868

TimeStatusvpv1vpv2vpv3vBatsocppv1ppv2ppv3pChargepDisCharge
2024-03-17 12:32:180xC0204198.6411.654.283%
2682​
3457​
0​
5793​
0​
2024-03-17 12:35:210xC0200197.8411.454.284%
2833​
3444​
0​
5923​
0​
2024-03-17 12:38:220xC0198.3198.1411.554.285%
3001​
3476​
0​
6129​
0​
2024-03-17 12:41:240xC0193198.8411.354.386%
3102​
3461​
0​
6219​
0​
2024-03-17 12:44:300xC0202.6197.3411.254.387%
3198​
3432
0​
6256​
0​
2024-03-17 12:47:310xC0198.9194.341154.287%
3165​
3384​
0​
6178​
0​
2024-03-17 12:50:330xC0204.5199.5422.254.388%
3295​
3379​
0​
6293​
0​
2024-03-17 12:53:350xC0199.2197.1411.254.289%
3412​
3430​
0​
5470​
0​
2024-03-17 12:56:400x11233.2234.7292.953.789%
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
2024-03-17 12:59:410xC0203.1200.3406.254.290%
3565​
3236​
0​
6287​
0​
2024-03-17 13:02:460xC0222.5224.6406.453.890%
1892​
954​
0​
2533​
0​
2024-03-17 13:05:490xC0206.2203421.854.391%
3441​
3242​
0​
6291​
0​
2024-03-17 13:08:510xC0208.4203.3421.254.491%
3353​
3252​
0​
6293​
0​
2024-03-17 13:11:550xC0204.1199.4422.154.292%
3102​
3463​
0​
6243​
0​
2024-03-17 13:14:560xC0209.6202.8421.554.593%
3356​
3247​
0​
6292​
0​

If you don't mind DMing the serial number for the inverter, I can take a look at all the data.
 
Doesn’t the MPPT of the 6000xp only support something like 17a? Would that imply that for most higher wattage/amperage panels, parallel strings are essentially a ton of wasted energy?
 
@EG4_Jared - Do you have any insight into where the 10 kW max input recommendation (as distinct from the 8 kW usable limit, and distinct from the limits implied by max voltage and max usable current) comes from?

I've had some interesting discussions on a small chat forum about why this might be.
 
Sure,

Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Issue only happens during full sun, cloudy days I can run all panels.

2x 5S2P - 450w

Each 5x Series is fused then parallel in combiner boxes. I am able to switch off either string and charge without issue.

Maybe it is due to SOC of batteries?

I have a 2nd 6000xp on order and previously ran a pair of EG4 6500's.

Thanks,

View attachment 204868

TimeStatusvpv1vpv2vpv3vBatsocppv1ppv2ppv3pChargepDisCharge
2024-03-17 12:32:180xC0204198.6411.654.283%
2682​
3457​
0​
5793​
0​
2024-03-17 12:35:210xC0200197.8411.454.284%
2833​
3444​
0​
5923​
0​
2024-03-17 12:38:220xC0198.3198.1411.554.285%
3001​
3476​
0​
6129​
0​
2024-03-17 12:41:240xC0193198.8411.354.386%
3102​
3461​
0​
6219​
0​
2024-03-17 12:44:300xC0202.6197.3411.254.387%
3198​
3432
0​
6256​
0​
2024-03-17 12:47:310xC0198.9194.341154.287%
3165​
3384​
0​
6178​
0​
2024-03-17 12:50:330xC0204.5199.5422.254.388%
3295​
3379​
0​
6293​
0​
2024-03-17 12:53:350xC0199.2197.1411.254.289%
3412​
3430​
0​
5470​
0​
2024-03-17 12:56:400x11233.2234.7292.953.789%
0​
0​
0​
0​
0​
2024-03-17 12:59:410xC0203.1200.3406.254.290%
3565​
3236​
0​
6287​
0​
2024-03-17 13:02:460xC0222.5224.6406.453.890%
1892​
954​
0​
2533​
0​
2024-03-17 13:05:490xC0206.2203421.854.391%
3441​
3242​
0​
6291​
0​
2024-03-17 13:08:510xC0208.4203.3421.254.491%
3353​
3252​
0​
6293​
0​
2024-03-17 13:11:550xC0204.1199.4422.154.292%
3102​
3463​
0​
6243​
0​
2024-03-17 13:14:560xC0209.6202.8421.554.593%
3356​
3247​
0​
6292​
0​
What are the specs of your panels?
 
@EG4_Jared - Do you have any insight into where the 10 kW max input recommendation (as distinct from the 8 kW usable limit, and distinct from the limits implied by max voltage and max usable current) comes from?

I've had some interesting discussions on a small chat forum about why this might be.

I will see if I can find documentation on this.
 
@G00SE panels are: 20x 450w ZNShine Solar ZXM6-NHLDD144-450/M

5S2P per PV input.

Unable to copy specs from sheet into forum, will try again later..1000000049.jpg
 
Last edited:
@G00SE panels are: 20x 450w ZNShine Solar ZXM6-NHLDD144-450/M

5S2P per PV input.

Unable to copy specs from sheet into forum, will try again later..View attachment 205007
If the MPPTs can only take 17a and a parallel string puts you north of 20, would that be the plausible reason you are seeing this production curtailed?
If you are running 5s2p on a VOC of ~50v then your string voltage must be somewhere around 200-250v.
200vx17a=3400w. X2 MPPT =6800w

Does that seem like a possibility @EG4_Jarrett
 
If the MPPTs can only take 17a and a parallel string puts you north of 20, would that be the plausible reason you are seeing this production curtailed?
If you are running 5s2p on a VOC of ~50v then your string voltage must be somewhere around 200-250v.
200vx17a=3400w. X2 MPPT =6800w

Does that seem like a possibility @EG4_Jarrett
I'll be interested in anything @EG4_Jared has to say here as well.

To add some detail from the manual.


Under PV INPUT DATA on Page 5

Max Usable Current - 17A (the number you share above)
Max Short Circuit Input Current - 25A

Page 16 shows these values again but adds the following elaborated text

Max Usable Current - 17A - "The MPPT will operate most optimally at this amperage"
Max Short Circuit Input Current - 25A - "The MPPT can accept up to this amperage(clipping will occur past this value)"

I've found the Short Circuit comment confusing, as I had interpreted "Max Short Circuit Input Current" as a hard design limit, whereas the text makes it sound like a soft limit past which clipping will occur. I actually wonder if it is a documentation bug, and the clipping statement is meant to apply to the smaller Max Usable Current value.
 
If the MPPTs can only take 17a and a parallel string puts you north of 20, would that be the plausible reason you are seeing this production curtailed?
If you are running 5s2p on a VOC of ~50v then your string voltage must be somewhere around 200-250v.
200vx17a=3400w. X2 MPPT =6800w

Does that seem like a possibility @EG4_Jarrett

This could be the case for the wattage production. However, with the PV Short error being thrown, I don't believe this would cause this.


I'll be interested in anything @EG4_Jared has to say here as well.

To add some detail from the manual.


Under PV INPUT DATA on Page 5

Max Usable Current - 17A (the number you share above)
Max Short Circuit Input Current - 25A

Page 16 shows these values again but adds the following elaborated text

Max Usable Current - 17A - "The MPPT will operate most optimally at this amperage"
Max Short Circuit Input Current - 25A - "The MPPT can accept up to this amperage(clipping will occur past this value)"

I've found the Short Circuit comment confusing, as I had interpreted "Max Short Circuit Input Current" as a hard design limit, whereas the text makes it sound like a soft limit past which clipping will occur. I actually wonder if it is a documentation bug, and the clipping statement is meant to apply to the smaller Max Usable Current value.

Also, I will try to get clarification on this from our technical writing team.
 
Update on 6000XP issue.

Everything is fine unless I combine two strings together in parallel. Either single 5x string is fine for each PV input.

Seeing 2300-2500w per string, if my math is correct 2423w / 190.7v = 12.7a per string.

If two strings in parallel 12.7a x2 = 25.4a hence the PV short fault I am experiencing?

Plan to just wait until the 2nd 6000XP is installed to add back more panels.

I've attached today's history with only 5 panels per PV input.


TimeStatusvpv1vpv2vpv3vBatsocppv1ppv2ppv3pCharge
2024-04-06 14:11:250xC0190.7190.841053.758%2423242404574
2024-04-06 14:08:230xC0189.3188.3409.453.657%2310231304387
2024-04-06 14:05:210xC0181.2190.7401.853.456%1277121902026
2024-04-06 14:02:160xC0185.6187408.553.656%2351238304360
2024-04-06 13:59:160xC0189.7187.739953.455%6953450755
2024-04-06 13:56:130xC0189.2191.4408.753.555%2313232804367
2024-04-06 13:53:090xC0180.7183.3402.253.354%1489153402507
2024-04-06 13:50:060xC0185.3184.6403.553.554%1624172602683
2024-04-06 13:47:030xC0187.3187.9408.153.553%2244227304129
2024-04-06 13:44:010xC0190.8188.8407.953.553%2215225604088
2024-04-06 13:40:570xC0190.8189.7408.453.552%2301232404305
2024-04-06 13:37:530xC0193.3194.240953.552%2455247004616
 
Last edited:
Update on 6000XP issue.

Everything is fine unless I combine two strings together in parallel. Either single 5x string is fine for each PV input.

Seeing 2300-2500w per string, if my math is correct 2423w / 190.7v = 12.7a per string.

If two strings in parallel 12.7a x2 = 25.4a hence the PV short fault I am experiencing?

Plan to just wait until the 2nd 6000XP is installed to add back more panels.

I've attached today's history with only 5 panels per PV input.


TimeStatusvpv1vpv2vpv3vBatsocppv1ppv2ppv3pCharge
2024-04-06 14:11:250xC0190.7190.841053.758%2423242404574
2024-04-06 14:08:230xC0189.3188.3409.453.657%2310231304387
2024-04-06 14:05:210xC0181.2190.7401.853.456%1277121902026
2024-04-06 14:02:160xC0185.6187408.553.656%2351238304360
2024-04-06 13:59:160xC0189.7187.739953.455%6953450755
2024-04-06 13:56:130xC0189.2191.4408.753.555%2313232804367
2024-04-06 13:53:090xC0180.7183.3402.253.354%1489153402507
2024-04-06 13:50:060xC0185.3184.6403.553.554%1624172602683
2024-04-06 13:47:030xC0187.3187.9408.153.553%2244227304129
2024-04-06 13:44:010xC0190.8188.8407.953.553%2215225604088
2024-04-06 13:40:570xC0190.8189.7408.453.552%2301232404305
2024-04-06 13:37:530xC0193.3194.240953.552%2455247004616
Interesting it’s throwing a fault rather than just clipping…
 
Interesting it’s throwing a fault rather than just clipping…
The max short circuit current is 25a.
Production stops at 17a
I understand the idea of overpaneling, but parallel string at all on these seem like a waste of energy at best, and system failure at worst
 
definitely gonna follow this thread as I continue to add to and upgrade my setup. Solid info in here so far!
 
This could be the case for the wattage production. However, with the PV Short error being thrown, I don't believe this would cause this.




Also, I will try to get clarification on this from our technical writing team.

As it happens, I've discovered a different and newer version of the manual that seems to clarify that clipping is above 17A, not 25A.

The text I wrote out earlier in the thread is from v1.1.7. I can still find that here:

A different text appears in v1.3.1, which I can currently find here:


The OLD text (which I quoted above):

Max Usable Current - 17A - "The MPPT will operate most optimally at this amperage"
Max Short Circuit Input Current - 25A - "The MPPT can accept up to this amperage(clipping will occur past this value)"


The NEW text:
Nominal MPPT Amperage - The MPPT will operate most optimally at this amperage - 17A
Maximum MPPT Amperage - The MPPT can accept up to this amperage (clipping will occur past 17A) - 25A
 
As it happens, I've discovered a different and newer version of the manual that seems to clarify that clipping is above 17A, not 25A.

The text I wrote out earlier in the thread is from v1.1.7. I can still find that here:

A different text appears in v1.3.1, which I can currently find here:


The OLD text (which I quoted above):

Max Usable Current - 17A - "The MPPT will operate most optimally at this amperage"
Max Short Circuit Input Current - 25A - "The MPPT can accept up to this amperage(clipping will occur past this value)"


The NEW text:
Nominal MPPT Amperage - The MPPT will operate most optimally at this amperage - 17A
Maximum MPPT Amperage - The MPPT can accept up to this amperage (clipping will occur past 17A) - 25A
Yeah I noticed that too. It seems based on reports from others that the newest version of the manual is correct.
 
So... Is it safe to say that a reasonable approach with these inverters is for each string to be somewhere around 350V, 11.5 amps? In other words, try to stay well under the voltage limit (to protect the unit) but not so far under (say, under about 235V) that you start to hit the amp max? These inverters seem to really like the Goldlocks middle.
 
I have two 6000xps. One has 16 Philadelphia Solar 445 watts, 8 on each MPPT. 310 / 330v @ 11.5amps equals 3500 watts per MPPT. On rainy days when the sun comes out of a cloud it would get almost to 4000 watts per MPPT. No problems at all. My second 6000xp only has 3 545 watts Boviett Solar Panels. 120 / 125v @ 12.4amps I've seen 1450 - 1650 watts, Both working perfectly at this time.
 
If I follow through with my current plans, I will have another data point here. I intend to have at least one 7s2p string of this Silfab part:


The Isc is 11.36 and the Ipmax is 10.77.

My logic, to this point has been that 11.36 * 2 = 22.72 which is less than 25, the stated amperage limit.

@dougadvrider's experience described earlier in the thread seems to imply that his panels in a 2p configuration are somehow operating significantly above 2x the Isc, and that is one working theory about why he is getting these errors. (That is, based on wattage and voltage calcs, his string seems to be going above 25 amps.)

I don't know if he and @EG4_Jared have arrived at any firmer conclusion on root cause here. (And it sounds as if he may be planning to avoid any real risk of hitting the amp limit by eliminating his parallel strings.)
 
I ordered Qty 16 of these blue sun panels for my two 6000xp’s. With an 8s configuration I should get around 330volts at 11.5 amps. I’ll report back here on what I’m getting here in Michigan.
 

Attachments

  • BSM460M-72HBDspec.pdf
    1.1 MB · Views: 2
Back
Top