EV under $10k USD with Sodium Ion Batteries???

[svetz]

Not sure how true this is, not like we haven't had false reports before about cheap EVs or sodium batteries.

The Seagull hatch is reported to launch in China in the second quarter (April to June inclusive) of 2023, starting from ¥60,000 yuan (A$12,500) with the sodium-ion battery providing up to 300km of range. This is likely on the generous China Light-Duty Vehicle Test Cycle (CLTC). ref

I've heard from other sources previously that BYD had a deal with CATL, so it's not totally outside the real of possibility. The article says the 250 mile range version is $12k USD.

Perhaps Bluetti will finally get their NA300 out and WIll can review it? Checked AliBaba, they have lots of sodium batteries, but those are probably all fake.

 

[D71]

Not sure how true this is, not like we haven't had false reports before about cheap EVs or sodium batteries.



I've heard from other sources previously that BYD had a deal with CATL, so it's not totally outside the real of possibility. The article says the 250 mile range version is $12k USD.

Perhaps Bluetti will finally get their NA300 out and WIll can review it? Checked AliBaba, they have lots of sodium batteries, but those are probably all fake.

That would be the equivalent if not better then Ford and his model “T”

which likely Mean: the Chinese will own the EV Market

”
Shenzhen automaker BYD (Build Your Dreams) will reportedly launch a sodium-ion battery next year with its entry-level hatchback.

According to local media outlets, the BYD Seagull may be the first production electric vehicle to feature the sodium-ion chemistry – which is more sustainable, cheaper to produce and safer than conventional lithium-based packs it replaces.

Sodium-ion batteries are mooted to substitute lithium-iron-phosphate (LFP) packs for lower range entry-level EVs. They house significantly less raw materials with no lithium, cobalt, copper or graphite making the cheaper to produce, while being recyclable like a lithium-ion battery.”

BYD may launch first sodium-ion battery electric car in 2023

The first mass produced sodium-ion battery EV could come from BYD’s new EV city car next year

www.whichcar.com.au

I highly doubt Biden will allow it here as your quote “$12k USD car”. Import tariffs will be sky high. Elon Musk and others would cry

 

[svetz]

I highly doubt Biden will allow it here as your quote “$12k USD car”.

With import taxes and whatnot, I doubt it too. But, even then I doubt it's passed all the "safety" standards required for the U.S. As to Biden doing Musk a favor, that'll be the day.

That said, BYD does have this, so possibly they will do something.

 

[aenyc]

Completely impossible pipe dream BS.

1. Sodium batteries are still pretty much being worked out with no guarantee of success. Their application in EV is questionable because
a. Much higher weight
b. lower energy density
c. issues with charging/recharging
d. lower voltage, lower power.


2. All other reasons why EV's are piper dream that i posted in other threads.

The real reason for EVs:

No Cars for You – World Economic Forum Calls for the End to Private Car Ownership - National Motorists Association

Lauren Fix, The Car Coach gives her take on what will happen if the World Economic Forum has its way when it calls for the end of private car ownership. Check out her vlog on the NMA blog today!

ww2.motorists.org

 

[D71]

With import taxes and whatnot, I doubt it too. But, even then I doubt it's passed all the "safety" standards required for the U.S. As to Biden doing Musk a favor, that'll be the day.

That said, BYD does have this, so possibly they will do something.

Biden would cover Musk due to proxy or end up in trouble because he would cover the rest of auto makers with an exception - end up in a lawsuit … I think the Chevy bolt was cheapest legit mass manufactured ev here. Right? If got the rebate discount around $22,000-$24,000 if remember right. I think the ones this year are disqualified due to battery origins.… so no govt tax break.

The chinese made an ice vehicle called the Chery the Chinese almost spelled it Chevy but it never made it here. These ice were going to be dirt cheap. Like your ev pricing.

chery international

Same as mahindra diesel truck… I am sure it got halted and rejected for several reasons including our auto makers whining and crying. It would probably have owned the small truck segment. The Ford Maverick is now soaking up the sunshine of that missed event.

Mahindra Pik-Up Review: Getting A Capable Ute On A Budget

Writing and Photos: Ben Schamberger, South African TFL correspondent You may have heard and perhaps watched videos of the Mahindra Roxor on TFLoffroad.

tfltruck.com

We can still hope to see it but by same token it will be like when Japanese dump economical cars on our market in the 1970s when we had gas crunches. I remember when a gallon of gas was around .38 cents a gallon
I remember gasoline going to $1 a gallon and ppl acted like it was the end of time. The world was going to stop turning. … Btw when we were in school in between diving under the desk for an atomic bomb going off we were fear porned to death about global freezing next great ice age. We were also told would be out of fuel from govt school books that were already 10-15 years old. That is why us old ppl don’t get bent out of shape as much. Some things about climate change are real… probably not a lot we can do about it. ?

I’m not trying to be a prick …. but the Govt and Greedy bastards have held us back from a better World all my life. They will most likely do the same to you.

aenyc is spot on …. They want no pov = private owned vehicles.

For 5-10 years the Eilo has had my attention since it is basically a motorcycle with the 3 wheels but car features. It would slide under radar for all required testing… the 84mpg ice power and $7500 msrp would make it sell. There is also an EV version they claim can go for 150miles so think it will sell. I don’t think they are ever going to make it = a start up company cost a lot of money

Elio Motors

www.eliomotors.com

Vehicle Specs - Features - Elio Motors

Elio is engineered to the highest safety standards. Each Elio comes equipped with a Safety Management System that includes three airbags. Get more details here.

www.eliomotors.com

 

[aenyc]

Real agenda exposed.
Only the superrich will be allowed mobility

https://mishtalk.com/economics/in-germany-there-will-be-no-clean-e-fuels-left-for-cars

 

[eXodus]

Not sure how true this is, not like we haven't had false reports before about cheap EVs or sodium batteries.

I've heard from other sources previously that BYD had a deal with CATL, so it's not totally outside the real of possibility. The article says the 250 mile range version is $12k USD.

Perhaps Bluetti will finally get their NA300 out and WIll can review it? Checked AliBaba, they have lots of sodium batteries, but those are probably all fake.

cars are very expensive compared to just a few years back.

That is not down the batteries - but because we have shift in consumer behavior and how cars are seen.

Nr. 1: People like fancy stuff, are barebones vehicle would not sell in the US, even when it would be cheap. Tesla didn't sell their short range Model 3 - it was offered for a while and nobody ordered it.

Nr. 2: because of number 1 people rather buy used fancy vehicles then new barebones. (I do, a fully loaded luxury brand at 5 years old - is still much better then a new low spec car)

2. All other reasons why EV's are piper dream that i posted in other threads.

The real reason for EVs:

No Cars for You – World Economic Forum Calls for the End to Private Car Ownership - National Motorists Association

Lauren Fix, The Car Coach gives her take on what will happen if the World Economic Forum has its way when it calls for the end of private car ownership. Check out her vlog on the NMA blog today!

ww2.motorists.org

Nr 3. People are driving too much and using cars to little. Which seems like a oxymoronic but statistics is showing that it's true. Most private cars are standing around like 95-98% of their existents. Try to go to your boss or a investor and argument to invest into an asset which is not used 95% of the the time. No investor in it's right mind would invest in a equipment right that.

Car ownership is destroying cities through massive amounts of parking spaces. Removing walkability and drivability from the urban landscape.

Having a fleet of robot taxis instead of personal car ownership would make sense. I personally would not give up full ownership - but at least get rid of my second vehicle.

 

[aenyc]

From another thread I posted:

You are STILL missing the 3 elephants in the room, and these 3 elephants are still standing, even if you assume 100% efficiency (i.e zero energy loss between charging battery and moving the wheels).

I will list them again with efficiency comment:

1. Battery Technology is not ready for mass EV usage for several reasons
a. Lithium Tech is unsustainable because there is not enough to power even half of US cars - Having 100% efficiency does NOT address the Lithium problem at all. In fact it would amplify it a thousand-fold (Everyone wanting a 100% efficient electric car)
b. Lithium tech is extremely bad for environment and is extremely toxic (https://archive.org/details/greentotalitarianism/Screenshot (1448).png) (Look up how much water has to be used to extract the Lithium and dont forget what the machinery doing this is using. Hint: Its not electric. (this is also why electric heavy equiment is pipe dream https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2022/11...too-quickly-during-snow-plowing-says-commish/) Add to that all other environmental pollution that all the "green tech" requires and dependencies on rare earth metals, etc. This particualr one is really the most important one. We are turning places into barren wastelands with this process. Or are we such hypprocrits where we dont care about anything or anyone just to get our "cool EVs?"
c. Upcoming Sodium tech is inferior to energy density and weight ration - ie. not suitable for EV usage. Self-Explanatory here
d. You would need a big breakthrough in energy density vs weight and this has not happened and there is no guarantee that it will by 2030 or 2230.
Self-Explanatory here. Efficiency has no impact on this.


2. Electricity Demand - Current Tech can not generate sufficient amount of electricity required for EVs to become dominant
a. Even with current setup (generalized term for existing grid capacity) there is not nearly enough power to supply the demand.
b. Switching to renewables will further reduce this power. Switching to renewables also presents several tangent problems such as storing excess energy that is produced to be used when renewables are not available which brings us back to the battery technology limitations and while stationary batteries can ignore the weight/density issue (to a certain extent), the pollution to the environment during manufacturing and disposal at EOL remains very much an issue, even more so due to much larger stationary battery arrays required.
c. Very basic fact that is often ignored, that even under absolute ideal circumstance, renewables can only generate around 5% of required capacity at CURRENT level. This is why California is such a great example - they mismanaged their infrastructure by requiring renewables, causing brownouts and blackouts because renewables simply dont produce enough. This is exactly what Mish is discussing in one of his points
Having 100% efficient EV makes this problem a LOT WORSE (even more demand)


3. Grid capacity - There is not enough capacity for aging grids to carry the required power, and upgrades are extremely costly. Who is going to pay for it? What about things like road taxes, which are built into fuel price. Once all of this is calculated in, EVs will cost multiples of what an ICE car costs today, and dropping subsidies, will make it even more so (Such as example with Germany where people would not buy EVs without subsidy due to overall cost being higher than ICE and this is just ONE example).
Having 100% efficient EV makes this problem a LOT WORSE (even more demand)

What this all comes down to, is cost. After all is said and done, at current technological level, expect to pay a lot more for electricity. A lot more. The question then becomes, who is going to buy an EV if cost to own one is 3-5x the cost of ICE? I think the answer to that is clear.

And these are just most basic, high level issues.
And on supercharging specifically - it very quickly degrades battery life if done often. From the horses mouth (Real users)

Is It Bad to Always Supercharge Your Tesla? - The Motor Digest​

Impact of Supercharging on Battery Life?​

And to conclude, are you going to carry your shopping and kids on an ebike? Are you 15? (And i think this thread actually talks about feasibility of an electric truck. I rest my case)

 

[svetz]

We don't live in a perfect world by any means, but the U.S. has a plan to get there: https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/US-Long-Term-Strategy.pdf.

Also, the BYD model in the OP uses a battery made from commonly available materials (i.e., sodium) which is currently being manufactured by CATL.

 

[eXodus]

Having 100% efficient EV makes this problem a LOT WORSE

I think you got vastly differently understanding of "Efficiency" then others.

A highly efficiency car - lets say 10 miles / kWh would only need a cheap 10KwH sodium Ion battery ($1000) to drive 100 miles. If you want 300 miles - $3000. The grid energy use would be very minimal.

The average American drives 35 miles in a day - that's 3.5kWh.
Which could be very simple produced with 1KW of Solar (3 panels) on carport/roof where ever your car sits 98% of it's existence.

Your average family taking showers - is more energy every energy then a highly efficient cars needs to drive around for the average person.

Sodium is plentiful available, there are cold regions where they dump thousands of tons each year on roads to melt ice. Lithium is also available and you don't need much - less then one lbs per electric car. Further manufacturer figuring out to use less and less lithium each generation of batteries.

The article says the 250 mile range version is $12k USD.

Math checks out. Sodium Battery would be about $5k - and you can build a low end car body for $7k no problem. You can buy new ICE vehicles for that price in many parts of the world.

 

[aenyc]

None of you addressed any of the elephants.
EVs are pipe dream that will never become mainstream unless there is a fundamental breakthrough with battery tech that solves all the Elephant number one issues.
That would be the first absolutely required step.
Then with breakthrough in powergeneration (Such as Thorium Based Nuclear) and complementation with NATGAS we would be on the path of solving Elephant number 2.
Eventually Elphant number 3 would be solved after a certain (even though long) amount of time (I would imagine several decades).
Then EV for everyone becomes reality.
However, all 3 are pipe dreams at this point and the powers that be know this.
Which brings us to the real goal of EVs today:

No Cars for You – World Economic Forum Calls for the End to Private Car Ownership - National Motorists Association

Lauren Fix, The Car Coach gives her take on what will happen if the World Economic Forum has its way when it calls for the end of private car ownership. Check out her vlog on the NMA blog today!

ww2.motorists.org

 

[eXodus]

EVs are pipe dream that will never become mainstream unless there is a fundamental breakthrough with battery tech that solves all the Elephant number one issues.

this thread is about this break through.

1. Sodium batteries are still pretty much being worked out with no guarantee of success. Their application in EV is questionable because
a. Much higher weight
b. lower energy density
c. issues with charging/recharging
d. lower voltage, lower power.

Finally some scientific discussion and not about Elephants.

a. Higher yes - but not much higher
b. Yes higher Cell weight, but less material required against fire proofing so the Pack weight is not that much heavier
c. It's a new technology - lithium-ion then LFP both were terrible in the beginning - now it's reliable, just give it a couple of years.
d. doesn't matter - people don't need 0-60 in 4 second electric cars. Most are happy with a car which gets them from A to B cheap

 

[aenyc]

You are not addressing any of the elephants. The video posted is a "maybe, possibly pipe dream with many limitations from "elephant number 1" caetgory not addressed.
In other words, its wishful thinking that is not grounded in reality

Take the Latest EV Battery Breakthrough News With a Grain of Salt

New sodium ion battery, M3P battery, and lithium polymer battery tech reportedly slashing costs, boosting range, and using easier-to-get materials.

www.motortrend.com

Pipe dream. The energy density is a real issue for Sodium. Half real world range at much more weight. A non-starter unless you want an EV with 100 mile range (LOL)

So pipe dream on Elephant 1, and Elephants 2 and 3 ignored (ofcourse).

Real EV agenda exposed - getting rid of private car ownership and severely limiting range to those who will be able to afford/be allowed to have an inferior EV.

 

[eXodus]

So pipe dream on Elephant 1, and Elephants 2 and 3 ignored (ofcourse).

do some statistics my friend. You know that stuff with numbers and tables.

Neither the grid nor availability of resources are a significant problem.

Lets come back in 3 years and see how our predictions turn out.

Real EV agenda exposed - getting rid of private car ownership

nothing wrong about, ownership is overvalued.

Luxury car owners are not happier than frugal car owners​

Luxury car owners are not happier than frugal car owners - International Review of Economics

The happiness literature has largely omitted the topic of consumption so far. While some studies investigate the most expensive consumption item, housing, there are no studies about the second most expensive item, the car. We use 2011 wave of American Panel Study of Income Dynamics to...

link.springer.com

People who share cars are as happy and sometimes even happier then people who own.

Study shows getting rid of your car increases happiness levels

 

[svetz]

$11,600 BYD Seagull launches on April 18 with 305 km sodium-ion battery​

...This 3.7-meter-long electric hatchback from BYD is the first car to feature a sodium-ion battery and is officially priced at $11,600 at current exchange rates. ref

Sodium-ion batteries are starting to gain popularity. BYD Seagull is not the first car to feature this new technology. That title goes to Sehol EX10 made by VW's joint venture with JAC. The car comes with a 25 kWh battery pack with an energy density of 120 Wh/kg and has a 252 km range.

While sodium-ion batteries are cheaper to manufacture and are less affected by cold temperatures, there are still plenty of kinks that need ironing out. For now, their charging rate is slower and they have lower energy density. They are here to stay though, and this is only the first generation of them.

 

[aenyc]

All 3 elephants are still laughing at both of you.
Gotta come down to reality.

But good job admitting the real agenda - getting people rid of private autos.

 

[svetz]

All 3 elephants are still laughing at both of you.
Gotta come down to reality.

But good job admitting the real agenda - getting people rid of private autos.

Your denierism is legendary! Can't wait to see what you say as cars hit the road.

 

[svetz]

Seagulls are being delivered for the launch:

The Seagull is recently being spotted all over China on trucks and streets, and it seems BYD is preparing for massive sales and putting big expectations in their entry-level EV. ref

Currently, these sodium ion batteries cost more or less the same as lithium iron phosphate, around €88/kWh. It is there where, although lithium-ferrophosphate (LFP) technology is the most affordable among current lithium batteries, since it does without materials such as nickel and cobalt, manufacturers such as BYD are those who intend to reduce the cost to 67 €6/kWh for when the sodium battery begins to be manufactured in large volumes, which makes the final price of the car even cheaper. ref

A sodium-ion battery cell can charge to 80% in 15 minutes at room temperature, CATL said in a press release. It also has a capacity-retention rate of more than 90% at -4 degrees Fahrenheit, according to the company. ref

 

[aenyc]

Peak EV: Electric Vehicles Will Fade as Their True Costs Become Clear | Mises Institute

The government wants to make gas cars a lot more expensive. But electric vehicles are so expensive in the longer term that gas cars still look like a better

mises.org

It takes a lot more energy to produce all this stuff than there can be ever saved by their usage. Its hoax.
The real goal is control over you. First they will let you drive in a golf cart (above, lol). And then when your electricity prices quadruple you will be permanently grounded.

 

[eXodus]

then when your electricity prices quadruple you will be permanently grounded.

That's why we are in DIY Solar Forum and don't pay for electric. I love being free and independent. I'm producing everything myself.
Power, Water, Food, and thanks to EV - transportation. No government required. I don't care when gas prices go up or down, or electric.

You apparently have being trained by your masters to go to a Gas station every week.


BTW. I just looked at your post history, and you have no solar related posts whatsoever. Just posting in Chit Chat and trying to push your Anti Renewable Energy Agenda? Why are you here again?