EV under $10k USD with Sodium Ion Batteries???

[svetz]

Svetz, you need to snap out of your fantasy world.

That's funny as I have an EV and ICE vehicle and pay for the insurance, so I might have a handle on the costs. You, on the other hand, should give up drinking the media koolaid, all that rot isn't good for your soul.

Generally, electric cars are more costly to insure than conventional vehicles. Because electric vehicles are pricier to both buy and repair, insurance providers may charge their drivers more for coverage. That said, the savings you earn on gas and tax incentives might more than make up for your policy's extra cost. ref

...but guess what buddy - its not sustainable and not achievable by humans as long as there is greed and jealousy and these will exist forever....

Renewables are sustainable by definition.

Fossil fuels certainly aren't sustainable, so I suggest we start finding alternatives and keeping an open mind. It's fine to point out problems, but saying something can't be done because it is hard is akin to saying man will never fly, man will never reach the moon, man will never reach net-zero. It's only those that believe something can't be done which are likely to never achieve it. Dare to dream of a bigger world.

 

[aenyc]

Renewables are sustainable by definition.

Fossil fuels certainly aren't sustainable, so I suggest we start finding alternatives and keeping an open mind. It's fine to point out problems, but saying something can't be done because it is hard is akin to saying man will never fly, man will never reach the moon, man will never reach net-zero. It's only those that believe something can't be done which are likely to never achieve it. Dare to dream of a bigger world.

Renewables are NOT sustainable by definition BECAUSE it takes MORE energy to produce (utilize) them than they provide over their lifetime, while AT THE SAME TIME causing major pollution and environmental impact.
Renewables also can not sustain the required energy output to maintain existing civilization AT CURRENT LEVEL, let alone with everyone having an EV (among other things).
But you already know all this, you are just being intellectually dishonest.

 

[svetz]

Renewables are NOT sustainable by definition BECAUSE it takes MORE energy to produce (utilize) them than they provide over their lifetime, while AT THE SAME TIME causing major pollution and environmental impact.

Oh right! I forgot that my PV panels don't really provide more energy than it took to produce them (despite the low cost) or that they couldn't have paid back their carbon debt, and that NREL doesn't know how to do a simple economic calculation most could handle by the third grade, or that they can't be recycled. At least I'm saving money.

 

[aenyc]

Oh right! I forgot that my PV panels don't really provide more energy than it took to produce them (despite the low cost) or that they couldn't have paid back their carbon debt, and that NREL doesn't know how to do a simple economic calculation most could handle by the third grade, or that they can't be recycled. At least I'm saving money.

I have said this time and again - solar can be a great supplement tech for those who can afford it without subsidies. But it is lunacy to force it down on everyone's throat due to its unsustainable nature and pollution associated with this technology.
As for saving money - the breakeven period is often decades or longer and that's for DYI projects, but that does not address all other issues, which again implies that Solar and Wind are supplemental techs even in ideal setup.

But this thread was about Sodium EV under 10K, and as we can see from the summary video (and knowing everything about China that we know) its just virtue signalling by the Chinese. Look the last 15 minutes of the video, the guys tells it exactly like it is regarding China.

 

[svetz]

New Sehol E10X EV from JAC hit the market. Starting at $10,600 USD​

Volkswagen's joint venture with JAC in China has produced the first electric car powered by the nascent sodium-ion battery technology. Provided by HiNa Battery, the mass-produced pack is installed in one of the joint venture Sehol brand's models - the E10X - which is a small urban electric car with a very affordable price and decent range that VW sells boatloads of in China. ref

With the sodium-ion battery, the test Sehol E10X is able to cover about 157 miles (252km) on a charge and is capable of charging at up to 4C speeds or 15 minutes. The Na-ion cells of HiNa Battery currently ship with energy density of 145 Wh/kg and are rated for 4,500 full charge-discharge cycles. Doubling of the cycles and 200 Wh/kg energy density is expected for the second Na-ion battery generation that HiNa is currently developing.

VW's Sehol model was chosen as a Na-ion battery test platform precisely because it is the type suitable for the first generation of sodium cells.

The world's biggest EV battery makers CATL and BYD are also on the cusp of mass Na-ion battery production, with BYD in particular expected to start this year.

 

[aenyc]

Oh oh, lol

E-bike fires sparking concerns for deliveristas

The bikes add another risk to an already dangerous job.

www.ny1.com

 

[svetz]

Oh oh, lol

A little behind the times, this is the same old NMC charging issue. The deaths occur because they take the bikes into their slum apartments for charging and they don't have smoke detectors to wake them up when it goes into thermal runaway and sets fire to the place.

Sodium batteries are thought to have superior safety of Li because they can't enter thermal run-away and can be shipped fully discharged. I'm sure someone will find a way to win a Darwin Award with one.

 

[aenyc]

Dude, Sodium Batteries are a non starter.
They are heavier and have less energy density. So they are DOA for EVs, unless you want 100 miles range and changing tires every year. (look this up, you can research right?).
The whole Chinese thing is virtue signalling bs, like so many things out of China. Watch the video posted.

 

[svetz]

...Sodium Batteries are a non starter....The whole Chinese thing is virtue signalling ...you can research right?

Yup, that's why I feel fairly confident about it. It's in German, but here's the VW with sodium batteries... Love the crash at ~6:30, looks like the test dummy's head almost came off. ; -)

 

[aenyc]

The only thing i see is chinese "golf carts" that have already been discussed in the China video i posted.

But what do i know, lol

Take the Latest EV Battery Breakthrough News With a Grain of Salt

New sodium ion battery, M3P battery, and lithium polymer battery tech reportedly slashing costs, boosting range, and using easier-to-get materials.

www.motortrend.com

Disruption or hype: Are sodium-ion batteries catching up and replacing lithium-ion ones in EV?

In recent years, the popularity of sodium-ion batteries has suddenly risen. Chinese companies such as Contemporary Amperex Technology (CATL), Gotion Hi-Tech, EVE Energy and BYD are all engaging in researching sodium-ion batteries. CATL is even about to put them into mass production. Here are...

www.digitimes.com

Sodium-Ion Battery Defects Captured with X-Ray Imaging

Sodium-ion batteries have indeed been heralded as a sustainable alternative to lithium-ion batteries since they are driven by a more abundantly available resource.

www.azom.com

 

[svetz]

...But what do i know, lol...

Thanks for the links

MotorTrend
MotorTrend seemed down on them, but the only negative they offered is that sodium is 25% less energy dense than LFP.

LFP is not commonly used in cars and has an energy density of 90 to160 Wh/Kg. CATL's first generation of sodium batteries had an energy density of 160 Wh/kg; so that's already at parity with LFP. I suspect they are comparing it to NMC batteries, but as those can go into thermal run-away and catch fire they probably didn't want to go there. NMC is usually 150 to 220 Wh/Kg. So, for a range of 100 kWh, CATLs would weigh in at 625 kgs. An LFP would be 625 to 1111 kgs, and an NMC 667 to 455 Kgs.

So, compared to "safe" LFP Sodium is better, compared to NMC it's 27% to -7% heavier. You might also be interested to know that the next generation of CATL's sodium-ion batteries have an energy density target is to exceed 200Wh/kg. If they achieve it, they'll be more energy dense than NMC.

DigiTimes
Your second link is well written, but the conclusion is basically "it doesn't make sense to put a heavier battery in a car for the sake of price as it hurts overall performance". While he has a lot about the sodium tech in the article, nowhere in the analysis does he run the lifetime costs. So ultimately it's just an opinion.

I'd counter it does make sense, the more batteries you sell the more tech improves, afterall, the current NMC density was lower when it first came out. Current prices put CATL's sodium batteries at about $100/kWh, but they're expected to fall to $40/kWh. So, that same 100 kWh battery costs $30000 for NMC, yet only $10,000 initially for sodium and is expected to fall to $4,000. Not only does that affect the price of the car, but also the insurance and other costs. The batteries are also safer and last longer, so that's why I think their conclusions are incorrect.

Azom
The Azom news can be disregarded... a journalist read an article about a defect in the electrodes of a sodium battery and assumed all sodium batteries are the same, so it must apply to all sodium batteries. The article is reporting on defects in the NaxNi1-xMnyO2 electrodes and electrode problems is what's kept the tech from being practical for the last 40 years. That's what the big news about CATL sodium tech is about, they've finally made it practical.

 

[aenyc]

Azom
The Azom news can be disregarded... a journalist read an article about a defect in the electrodes of a sodium battery and assumed all sodium batteries are the same, so it must apply to all sodium batteries. The article is reporting on defects in the NaxNi1-xMnyO2 electrodes and electrode problems is what's kept the tech from being practical for the last 40 years. That's what the big news about CATL sodium tech is about, they've finally made it practical.

Are you for real? If you spent 2 seconds looking at the link, it goes to the Cornell Study. I guess that's "official enough" for you? LOL

X-ray imaging captures fleeting defects in sodium-ion batteries | Cornell Chronicle

A Cornell-led collaboration succeeded in identifying an elusive mechanism that can trigger degradation in sodium-ion batteries.

news.cornell.edu

Either way, Sodium Battery is pipe dream for any foreseeable future, just as EV for everyone are. I already posted 3 elephants in the room that need to be solved for it to be feasible, and battery is just one of them, and appears to be unsolvable for now. The other 2 are laughing at you.

But again, the predator parasite class know this. They just need an excuse to get rid of you, useless eater, starting by getting you rid of your car.

 

[svetz]

... If you spent 2 seconds looking at the link, it goes to the Cornell Study. I guess that's "official enough" for you? ...

Go back and re-read what I wrote, Cornell is certainly official enough for me.

 

[aenyc]

A heavy dose of reality for electric-truck mandates

www.trucking.org

 

[aenyc]

Carmageddon: the Electric Car Fiasco – The Daily Sceptic

If you've resisted buying an electric car, you're probably feeling pretty smug right now. Scarcely a day passes without some story appearing about what an unmitigated disaster they're proving to be. It's carmageddon!

dailysceptic.org

Thousands of free electric car chargers pulled from UK roads after energy price surge

Number of chargers offering free electricity falls by almost 40pc

www.telegraph.co.uk

Electric cars losing their value twice as fast as petrol alternatives

Early adopters have seen huge amounts wiped off the value of their purchases

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[aenyc]

How much of a fire risk are electric vehicles? | Autocar

A lithium ion battery blaze is almost impossible to put out. We look at why that is, how fire services are handling it and what can be done to minimise risks

www.autocar.co.uk

"EV fires are complex and often heralded by a highly toxic vapour cloud accompanied by a hissing noise and highly directional jets, followed, possibly, by an explosion; they can occur spontaneously; and putting out an EV fire is virtually impossible. You think it’s out and then it erupts again hours, days or even weeks later."

"Full, a cell contains 4.2V of charge, but even when empty, it still holds 2.5V. A Nissan Leaf has from around 192 cells in 24 modules and a Tesla Model S over 7000 in 16 modules. That’s a lot of energy when the car’s power indicator says it has none. Full or ‘empty’, the risk of this energy escaping in an uncontrolled fashion is what some scientists believe leads to ‘thermal runaway’, when heat and gases fuel even higher temperatures and still more gases, including hydrogen and oxygen, in a self-fulfilling loop until the cells begin to burn and burst. A toxic vapour cloud develops, bringing with it the risk of deflagration. Once thermal runaway has started, no battery management system or circuit breaker can stop it. “A battery fire can be controlled but it cannot be extinguished”

I am sure this is great for the environment! But hey, CO2 is poison right? LOL

 

[svetz]

Saw a couple of interesting things, this article: The Sodium-Ion Battery Is Coming To Production Cars This Year and a video that addresses a number of Aenyc's concerns.

The lithium prices in the video are a bit off... the peak price was from months ago due to a shortfall, the prices have been falling again.

 

[aenyc]

I saw the video, it does not address any of the issues with Na+ chemistry. As usual, it is all hopium maybe/couldbe/future.

We need to stop putting the cart before the horse. First sustainable (hate this word because it has been hijacked by the parasite class) but here i really do mean sustainable - i.e. economically feasible, environmentally friendly (i.e. pollution) and performing (high energy density) battery technology must be developed/invented. This has not happened, and neither Li nor Na chemistries are promising. Its like using solid states rockets travel to the nearest star, its simply not feasible. A complete breakthrough will be required. And that would solve elephant number one.

And when that happens, i will be more than happy to support the EV movement (which will also require solving elephants 2 (electricity generation) and elephant 3 (grid capacity).

But, again and again- the REAL goal of todays EV is to restrict movement and get rid of what's left of the middle class. The parasite class are not interested at all in development of such breakthroughs, in fact if the battery i mention above would be developed, they would most likely go out of their way to ensure that it does not reach the people, as that would decrease people's dependency on the parasite class, something they definitely do NOT want.

 

[aenyc]

Another issue with EV... who could have guessed, lol (alternative media has been pointing this out for years but it seems its starting to catch on).
The issue is much worse with Na+ even if there were to work out other issues (Which they did not).

https://www.axios.com/2023/04/28/evs-weight-safety-problems

Car parks could collapse under the weight of electric cars

Electric vehicles are typically much heavier than petrol or diesel cars, with their batteries accounting for a lot of the extra weight

www.telegraph.co.uk

The big question: Can automakers make batteries more energy-efficient so that they weigh less yet still pack a powerful punch?

• "Unless we see incredibly rapid advances in battery design and vehicle designs, and taking smart steps like using battery energy density gains to save weight rather than extend range, or opening the doors to battery swapping, we are likely to see many additional deaths and injuries attributable solely to the added weight of EV batteries," Brooks says.

With Na+ this is actually going in the other direction! Imagine that

 

[svetz]

I saw the video, it does not address any of the issues...

There was a segment near the end about why some thought it might be fake and another on why CATLs sodium batteries aren't like previous generations.

We need to stop putting the cart before the horse.

We need to get rid of the horse and move to less dung-ridden flea-bitten tech.