I was told the offer was good through October 31st...
Fortress 12K Buy one get one FREE!
- Thread starter OutlawSolar
- Start date
It works like that 18k stuff. So if 18k = 12k with 18k pv the offer works like Oct 31st = whenever we feel like cancelling it
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
If you try and sell something at the cost of production you will go broke very quickly. When you go to ACE hardware, open a drawer drop a nut bolt and a washer in the bag, go up to the counter PAY IN CASH $1.50 or something, they just hit you with a 3000% markup. . . and lost money on the deal, no question. Add in a swipe fee, and they are pretty close to paying you to take it.
In another life I ran a pizza joint, we kept our total CGS under 30%. I think it's a little higher in the business these days. Bigger ticket items can be sold with narrower margins, but I can tell you MSRP's represent a 60% Margin on most appliances or a 150% markup. Then they discount 25% example: 4 (cost) * 1.5 = 6 + 4 = 10 * .25 = $7.50, which still maintains a 1 - (4/7.5) = 47% margin, or just under 100% markup. Business' run on margins. If you don't have a storefront you can lower your overhead, but everything you do costs money. When I order 100 units at $1000ea and drop them in a warehouse I now put up $100,000, for a product I haven't sold yet. I paid for the freight as well. I'm paying rent on the building, the power bill, the water bill, and the paychecks for the forklift guy, and the clerks doing the paperwork, and ...
I guessing EG4 is running a pretty tight margin, 40-50%, I figure they are shelling out $2500-$3000 for the units. They are likely buying them by the container or 1/2 container or whatever to save some of the shipping, they probably have $3500 in it when it hits the US dock. Then we have any tariff's etc. There is just all this little stuff that keeps adding up. The 2 units that fell from on high and the couple that were speared by the forklift guy.
Sol-Ark had a corner in the 240/50A space of the AIO market, but as we see more competition in prices should drop a bit. For one thing manufacturing costs tend to drop, efficiencies improve, etc, etc.
In another life I ran a pizza joint, we kept our total CGS under 30%. I think it's a little higher in the business these days. Bigger ticket items can be sold with narrower margins, but I can tell you MSRP's represent a 60% Margin on most appliances or a 150% markup. Then they discount 25% example: 4 (cost) * 1.5 = 6 + 4 = 10 * .25 = $7.50, which still maintains a 1 - (4/7.5) = 47% margin, or just under 100% markup. Business' run on margins. If you don't have a storefront you can lower your overhead, but everything you do costs money. When I order 100 units at $1000ea and drop them in a warehouse I now put up $100,000, for a product I haven't sold yet. I paid for the freight as well. I'm paying rent on the building, the power bill, the water bill, and the paychecks for the forklift guy, and the clerks doing the paperwork, and ...
I guessing EG4 is running a pretty tight margin, 40-50%, I figure they are shelling out $2500-$3000 for the units. They are likely buying them by the container or 1/2 container or whatever to save some of the shipping, they probably have $3500 in it when it hits the US dock. Then we have any tariff's etc. There is just all this little stuff that keeps adding up. The 2 units that fell from on high and the couple that were speared by the forklift guy.
Sol-Ark had a corner in the 240/50A space of the AIO market, but as we see more competition in prices should drop a bit. For one thing manufacturing costs tend to drop, efficiencies improve, etc, etc.
2 other vendors replied that they could still make money at those prices. Heck. @Lt.Dan has a thread in here that shows cost to make and wholesale prices of the lux unit
Solar Guppy
Red Cobra Guppy
Anyone that has owned a business knows that is a requirement to fund all that makes a company stay solvent and pay for marketing, engineering, sales and support, not to mention building and 3 levels of taxes.
cs1234
Solar Wizard
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While those things are true, that doesn't mean some companies might not be gouging us. Without seeing their books, it's hard to say. Fortunately, there are things besides prices that certain companies do that also influences whether we should by from them or not. Things that stand out and smack you right in the face.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
Define gouging. Whenever I hear words like this I cringe. Maybe we should all sit around a fire and sing Kum-ba-ya, and share all we have with everyone, just don't make me part of your "we". If you think someone is charging too much don't buy it. Guess what my Grandma & Grandpa did when they didn't have the money to buy something? They did without! If I build or do something nobody else has done or can build I will charge whatever I darn well please for it. That will be as much as I can possibly get for it for as long as I can get it. If you think it's 'gouging' all you have to do is engineer your own product, ramp up production of it, and undercut my business. If you don't want to exert the effort to do that then I'm obviously not 'gouging' you or anyone else so get over it.
There is a reason all the commune's in the 60 all fell over. Five percent of the members were doing 90 percent of the work. Further, consumers want to buy products that accomplish their needs at the lowest possible cost. Lowering costs involves scaling up production and becoming a 'Big Guy'. We have somehow allowed our children to be taught that people some how have some obligation to give away their work product at a price determined by a committee. This is total BS, and a recipe for disaster. I for one do not want to live in China or N.Korea.
timselectric
If I can do it, you can do it.
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I don't remember what you have. But, I'm guessing that it's not made in China. lol
consumers want to buy at the lowest cost? Or again (as exemplified in this thread) continue to justify those that continue to rake in millions/billions off the “little guys” back?
Did our children learn that opinion of price by committee, or did children maybe finally recognize that the status quo is not true capitalism but crony capitalism and decide enough is enough and use their voice at the behest of everyone who blames “millennials” or “zoomers”
If anyone can candidly sit back in 2023 and pretend that “this is how it’s supposed to be” and that it’s totally awesome. then I’ve got some beachfront property to sell you in Arizona.
But sure, 6300 dollars for some cheap Chinese inverters with someone else’s label is right on the money and anyone who says otherwise has never owned a business, doesn’t understand macroeconomics, and must have been completely pampered as a child
Edit: for what it’s worth. They didn’t invent or so something that no one else has.
They bought a Chinese product, Pennies on the dollar, and secured distribution rights (in the case of solark) I won’t speak to how lux did it but none of them are doing something that no one else does.
But the players with money sure made sure to remove the cost effective options in the process
And the fortress is 750 more than the eg4. What is the 750 dollar benefit for the same inverter? Eg4 was more expensive than the OEM lux a few months ago. Now it appears the lux price is set to match the eg4.
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Lt.Dan
Solar Wizard
If I remember correctly, its a Modified sine wave inverter and a DIY SCC. lol
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
I, for one, would much rather have an expensive Chinese made inverter, in an expensive EU or US branded cabinet, and an expensive Chinese made MPPT likewise in an expensive branded box. I mean it might not be any better but at least you can say you paid a lot more for it.
SilverbackMP
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Well at the very least, they MIGHT have enough funds to pay for decent QA/QC and after sale support.
It’s the QA/QC that makes or breaks mainland Chinese manufacturing.
They will try every trick in the book down to the component level. Is the capacitor film manufacturer on the up and up? So that the capacitor manufacturer is using appropriate materials?
It really has to be looked at to that specificity and white labeled electronics gear may or may not be doing their due diligence.
It’s not like China can’t manufacture good products. It’s the cultural climate of fucking someone else over (even for tiny amounts of extra profit) that’s the issue.
I would think that those brands that have more margin and help to engineer more bespoke products and less white labeled products do better due diligence.
China WAS perhaps on the track to become the next Japan/Taiwan/South Korea if it could solve its tofu dreg tendencies. With better quality components coming from there and the lower cost stuff outsourced to Vietnam, Malaysia, etc.
But Xi has scared a bunch of higher end business away and the tofu dreg remains (along with those companies whose whole business models involve stealing and recreating IP).
I just try to avoid mainland Chinese products as much as possible. Sometimes that’s not always an option or its cost prohibitive.
timselectric
If I can do it, you can do it.
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It's pretty much impossible to buy anything electronic, that wasn't made in China. Or at least made of parts that were made in China.
fromport
Solar Addict
Can you suggest a different product with similar or better performance for a similar or better price currently available ?
cs1234
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Don't worry dude. I wouldn't make you part of my "we". I've got all the crazy I need over here.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
Wow. All those cigar smoking, whisky drinking rich people just sittin' in the back room raking in the millions. We really oughta' do something about that.
Your right! Get your friends get your guns, point them at me and tell me what I can charge because I'm a price gouging crony capitalist and you and your friends know better than I do what that price should be, and how the product should be made. If I don't agree you can forcably remove me from my business and take it over and sell the products at the 'correct' price. Somehow I don't think this type of an attitude is going to end well.
Apparently you and people who think like you are the authority on what I or anyone else should be charging for our labor and products. Unless you are willing to force your will on me/us at the tip of a spear then your rant has no teeth. No I don't think you are pampered, just somehow have been deluded in thinking you have any right to tell someone else what they are allowed to do with their work product. Yes, that is what is known as a sense of entitilement that the younger generations seem to have garnered. Maybe you should re-read "Atlas Shrugged" or "Fountainhead". I for one will not be forcing you to buy a Cheap Chinese inverter for $6300, but I will take exception if you try to force the manufacturer to sell it to you at the tip of a spear for a price you deem worthy of the product. Nobody here is stopping you from putting together a business plan and presenting it to some venture capitalists and selling a high quality 100% American made 240v/50a inverter for $2000. Hell, if it's any good I might buy one from you, hell if the business plan is good I might even invest in the company!
SilverbackMP
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I wonder how much longer that will remain the case? Currently half the country and most of its industrial hubs are literally under water or have been underwater in the past few months and a good part of this is can be attributed to tofu dreg and/or shitty planning. Including the vaunted Lux Power’s home city of Shenzhen (which just dumped a bunch of flood water into Hong Kong which is now also flooded).
And then there is the whole population bust that’s already being felt.
And then there’s the nutty assed Xi…which could fill a book.
Higher end manufacturers are already unassing to India. Lower end going to southeast Asia.
And Taiwan still holds a bunch of higher end electronic and industrial manufacturing.
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cs1234
Solar Wizard
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No, at least not for the inverters. It was also never meant for us, but for distributors/installer partners or some such.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
Now, we are getting to the meat and potato's. The capacitor issue on motherboards was a true fiasco. Well respected name brands got bitten by fake parts on that one.
Part of the cost of any product is warranty. This normally comes with a level of due-diligence, ie inspecting the process to make sure they don't have to honor any warranties, because the product was actually built to meet expectations. Good quality control adds to administrative costs.
It remains to be seen if these newer model 240v/50a AIO's are robust. Thus far it seems promising.
You’re better than this, be better.
I deleted my original reply to this cuz I stooped to a personal level as well and we don’t need to do that.
We can debate and disagree all we want but change the angle
BuffaloTrace
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The cost of doing business is high on these shores. Don't think anyone can argue there.
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