Gut check - am I crazy?

[Kornbread]

Variable speed Heatpump A/C ? Double Pane insulating windows? Shade structures for windows?

Heatpump Dryer?

Heatpump Waterheater? Solar Thermal Collector?

The geotherm hvac water source heatpump ... major disappointment. It never delivered on the promised energy savings and is a constant battle to maintain. Any small savings it might have generated have been well negated by the constant maintenance costs. I am sitting upstairs in the heat yet again this summer because of that piece of krap no one can keep running. Anyhow, it is also supposed to generate most of our hot water and for that we need a tank style water heater. The water heater is also contained in an a small insulated box. Not aware of any studies on adding insulation to a conventional water heater, but when opening the door to access the water heater; it's hot in there. The extra insulation has to save some $. So yeah, IMO, at our utility rates, a heatpump water heater will not pay for it's premium price over its expected lifespan, nor, after our experiences with our geotherm hvac, do I want the headache of trying to maintain yet another high priced overly complicated energy saving appliance. Curious as to what is done with the heat the heatpump waterheater moves? Where does it go? Is it piped outside or does it vent inside the house affecting heating and cooling of the house?

I like to eat and the wife is a very good cook, so I am most certainly not telling her how to save money while cooking, but I am very interested as to what type of electric stoves/ovens are the most efficient.

Drying clothes outside on the line sounds like a good idea, until you go to slip on your pants and find a wasp has made a new home. The trip to the dr offset any savings of using the clothesline.

 

[ChrisG]

@Kornbread working on similar solution for cabin. Well pump is a PITA with surge (9k watts). We’re at our cabin about 7 days a month and a family of 4 uses about 2.6kwh week just for well pump (we just left yesterday after being there 7 days). Not bad considering normal life on grid, washing clothes, dishwasher, showers and drinking water. No holding tank here, just pressure tank from 600ft well with 3/4hp pump. What inverter do you use again?

 

[JRH]

Although not nearly as severe, we had an ice storm in, was it 2009, that left over 6" of translucent ice on everything. Our power was out for over two weeks. Long line for gas at the stations that had power. No generators for sale. After a few days, things like a shower or flushing the toilet were sorely missed. You would not believe how bad a toilet stinks after a couple days of not being flushed! Luckily, it was an ice storm, so we were able to put all our frig and freezer items into baskets and coolers on the porch, while keeping a vigil watch for the neighbor's dogs and coons trying to get our food. We found out that it is possible to cook scrambled eggs and soup on a kerosene heater.

Now we have enough pv generation/batteries to run the frig/freezers continuously and the deep well pump when needed, so that we have water to drink, can bathe, and flush the toilet. Other things that pull much current will need cycled with care. After the big ice storm, that became the plan; save the pennies, pay off our debt, and become more self sufficient, ie.; enough power that in case the grid fails again, we had the basics covered, although, all this is mute if a big wind blows those panels into the next county. Over time, the plan expanded to include protection, food, etc. in case of a real shtf situation.

Its quite amazing how it only takes one event like these to totally change the way most people view the future..If it happens a second time , then there’s something wrong with that persons life strategy. IF it happens 3 or more times , then there are some real issues that they need to work on….!

 

[Kornbread]

@Kornbread working on similar solution for cabin. Well pump is a PITA with surge (9k watts). We’re at our cabin about 7 days a month and a family of 4 uses about 2.6kwh week just for well pump (we just left yesterday after being there 7 days). Not bad considering normal life on grid, washing clothes, dishwasher, showers and drinking water. No holding tank here, just pressure tank from 600ft well with 3/4hp pump. What inverter do you use again?

Growatt spf60000t low freq. To be transparent, with a surge rating of 18kw, I assume it will start the 1/2hp deep well pump but have yet to actually test and may ultimately have to look into a 'soft start', if that is an option. The sticker says 240v, 4.9a, so the GW 'should' be able to handle it. This looks to be an informative site for surge characteristics of various household items. no outage dot com

I would like to add a large holding tank. Use the deep well pump to fill the holding tank, turn off the deep well pump for the day, use a smaller pump on the holding tank to supply the house. The large holding tank would also make a decent place to treat our nasty well water.

 

[Kornbread]

Its quite amazing how it only takes one event like these to totally change the way most people view the future..If it happens a second time , then there’s something wrong with that persons life strategy. IF it happens 3 or more times , then there are some real issues that they need to work on….!

No guarantees it will not happen again, but at least I have tried. With our present uncertain economic and geopolitical issues, IMO, it is wise for everyone to prepare, in one way or another, for a shtf event.

 

[Kornbread]

double post

 

[JRH]

No guarantees it will not happen again, but at least I have tried. With our present uncertain economic and geopolitical issues, IMO, it is wise for everyone to prepare, in one way or another, for a shtf event.

I didn’t mean IT couldn’t happen again , I meant that one shouldn’t be sitting still and have it happen without a plan in place…Im sure IT WILL happen again, the question is , will who IT affects have some sort of back up plan for basic services .
with that said,,no one can prevent or be covered for everything…All you can do is try within your available means….and thst may not even work if it ain’t your day… J.

 

[eXodus]

heatpump waterheater moves? Where does it go? Is it piped outside or does it vent inside the house affecting heating and cooling of the house?

A heatpump water heater takes heat out of the air in the home and puts it into water - it cools the interior of the space it's in.
So it's beneficial during cooling periods - and not so good in heating periods. So depends on your climate if it's a win or not.

Not aware of any studies on adding insulation to a conventional water heater, but when opening the door to access the water heater;

I've added R13 foam boards inside my water heater cabinet and basically build a air tight box around it.
It's toasty warm inside that box. I did that when I switched my 20 year old water heater against a new model.

It saved about $2-3kwh a day. But not sure how much of that is due to being new vs. the box around it.

 

[Hedges]

It saved about $2-3kwh a day. But not sure how much of that is due to being new vs. the box around it.

??
Dollars, donuts, or kilowatt hours?

My latest gas bill was $8.93 for 13.72 therms. That's 402 kWh/month, 14.4 kWh/day. (using 28 days of once rate).
Gas used for water heater and stove (now with electronic ignition.)

Therm to Kilowatt-Hour Conversion - Convert Therm to Kilowatt-Hour (thm to kW∙h) - Energy Conversion

www.theunitconverter.com

This puts your savings at 20% of my consumption.
Because mine is gas, can't so much insulate the box; it has a venturi to suck out room air. Could further insulate tank. But inside has baffled heat exchanger to flue.

I think some gas water heaters add a vent shut-off to cut convection losses through heat exchanger. Hope they have a very good fail-safe mechanism.

With my costs, you can see why I don't entertain "instant on" or any other such cr*p.

 

[JRH]

??
Dollars, donuts, or kilowatt hours?

My latest gas bill was $8.93 for 13.72 therms. That's 402 kWh/month, 14.4 kWh/day. (using 28 days of once rate).
Gas used for water heater and stove (now with electronic ignition.)

Therm to Kilowatt-Hour Conversion - Convert Therm to Kilowatt-Hour (thm to kW∙h) - Energy Conversion

www.theunitconverter.com

This puts your savings at 20% of my consumption.
Because mine is gas, can't so much insulate the box; it has a venturi to suck out room air. Could further insulate tank. But inside has baffled heat exchanger to flue.

I think some gas water heaters add a vent shut-off to cut convection losses through heat exchanger. Hope they have a very good fail-safe mechanism.

With my costs, you can see why I don't entertain "instant on" or any other such cr*p.

I found if I only turn the hot water on in the morn for 20 mins , its plenty warm all day.
. at night 30 min before doing the dishes and a shower.….and then off all night , still warmin in the morning ……then repeat things that day…
now and then there is a need to run it a bit more for some thing I need to do with hot water …

power bill is way down this year... I clock the usage of everything with the APP that comes with having a Hughes Watchdog SPD ..the APP tracks and shows all KWHs , voltage and amps going in and coming out of the entire place…it’s pretty cool. it helped me see where I was wasting all sorts of power on different devices and gadgets ….I’m practicing to see how low I can get my usage and still do everything I need or want to do. It has cut my usage in about 1/2 of normal .. it’s sorta fun actually …

I’m sure I will take a beating for this comment. Ha.

 

[eXodus]

??
Dollars, donuts, or kilowatt hours?

Didn't I state 2kwh (kW/h) per day? sorry for my laziness in omitting capital letters
electric around here is 14 cents /kW/h.

The total investment for the Box around the water-heater was about $15 in foam board and silver duct tape. So I got my money back in about 53 days.
$15.00 / (2kW/h/day * 14cent) = 53 days

Pretty no brainer project. Pays for itself in no time.

 

[eXodus]

My latest gas bill was $8.93 for 13.72 therms. That's 402 kWh/month, 14.4 kWh/day.

Hydro carbons are great in making things warm,

Gas used for water heater and stove (now with electronic ignition.)

I love my propane BBQ, love cooking with gas. but hate to have it inside the house.
Indoor air quality around those appliances is not great.

 

[Hedges]

It was the way written: "It saved about $2-3kwh a day."

Maybe you meant you save two greenbacks, about 3 kilowatt-hours per day.
Maybe you meant you saved two to three dollars per day (which got me looking, because that is much more than my water heating bill.)
Maybe you meant saved two to three kWh/day. I'll go with that, being 20% of my water heating power consumption.

You saved $15 in just under two months? That would be 100% of my bill for that period.
Your $0.14/kWh is near half my low time rate. Gas is cheaper than electricity. I only heat with electric because I over-built PV, so burn off surplus in the winter.

Indoor air quality - most have automatic vent. Stove is manual. I didn't put in external vent for range hood until 20 years later (prior owner had a recirculating hood??)

 

[Kornbread]

Not a fan of having gas in the house, but when used appropriately, it has efficiency and a proven safety record on its side. Houses have burnt to the ground from gas, as well as electrical fires, not to mention electrocution and asphyxiation hazards. Hydro bla ... bla ... bla ... fossile fuels still generate the majority of electricity in the U.S., so using electricity does not automatically equate to a reduction in greenhouse gasses.

 

[Hedges]

Rather an increase.
Burning natural gas to produce electricity to provide heat means a percentage is wasted going up the cooling towers, rather than reaching consumers.
In some facilities (I think military bases), heat is pumped around as a utility. In that case, central combined heat and power plant would be more efficient. I also saw piped heat in Rochester, MN.

I think with the push to have all-electric construction, hybrid gas (or other fossil fuel)/electric appliances should be allowed.
That would let PV and wind power furnace and water heater, yet gas is available as a backup when needed to take strain off the grid.
This approach would allow a greater utilization of renewables, reducing fossil fuel usage.

 

[timselectric]

Gas is more efficient and cheaper, in my area.
But, I can't make it with my solar panels.
So, it's on the list to go.

 

[Kornbread]

Gas is more efficient and cheaper, in my area.
But, I can't make it with my solar panels.
So, it's on the list to go.

You could make hydrogen.

 

[JRH]

You could make hydrogen.

You could just keep on using gas too, as next year it will be something else new to stop using … there is no end to it…

 

[OzSolar]

The only gas at our house are the propane cook stoves. We have three. Long story, big house, indoor, outdoor and canning kitchens. At any given time we have least 3 years of propane on hand. Should it all fall down tomorrow we already have electric units in place for all three. Wife does not like electric cooking but also has a firm love and grasp of resilience and what its going to take. Oh yeah... we've been doing this since the early 90's.

 

[JRH]

The only gas at our house are the propane cook stoves. We have three. Long story, big house, indoor, outdoor and canning kitchens. At any given time we have least 3 years of propane on hand. Should it all fall down tomorrow we already have electric units in place for all three. Wife does not like electric cooking but also has a firm love and grasp of resilience and what its going to take. Oh yeah... we've been doing this since the early 90's.

3 years …wow .. I only have about 2 years supply ..I’m envious.. good foresight…!