having a hard time justifying switch to LiFePo4

[Supervstech]

Anybody switch to LiFePO4 and regret it?
<Silence>
<Mic drop>

... anybody buying NEW LiFePO4 and regret it...

Used, I have been burned a tad...

 

[NoSmokeYet]

From what I have read about LiFePO batteries it seems like most people have problems with them(is it doing this/is it doing that). I for one don't want to be concerned about the safety of my batteries. I'll stick with golf cart batteries for now, set them and forget them. As a hobbyist yes someday I will get a LiFePO or the sorts and play with it, but not for $800+. Soon I will upgrade to (4) 6 volt batteries Let it rip !

 

[Supervstech]

From what I have read about LiFePO batteries it seems like most people have problems with them(is it doing this/is it doing that). I for one don't want to be concerned about the safety of my batteries. I'll stick with golf cart batteries for now, set them and forget them. As a hobbyist yes someday I will get a LiFePO or the sorts and play with it, but not for $800+. Soon I will upgrade to (4) 6 volt batteries Let it rip !

Well... GCB’s need regular maintenance you know... distilled water, full charge, monitored capacity, keep discharge to 50%max... those cut it and forget it plans go bad rapidly if not maintained.

 

[Ped]

From what I have read about the automobile it seems like most people have problems with them (is it doing this/is it doing that). I for one don't want to be concerned about the safety of my vehicle. I'll stick with horse drawn buggies for now, set them and forget them. As a hobbyist yes someday I will get an automobile of sorts and play with it, but not for $8000+. Soon I will upgrade to (4) horses Let it rip !

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

How have they been "proven" to last that long?

Same way you do with other tests in every other piece of equipment: HALT (Highly accelerated life test), endurance tests, etc. For example, and in part, like this: https://agronomy.emu.ee/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Vol15SP1_Papezova.pdf

 

[NoSmokeYet]

Well... GCB’s need regular maintenance you know... distilled water, full charge, monitored capacity, keep discharge to 50%max... those cut it and forget it plans go bad rapidly if not maintained.

Hi Supervstech nice Forum you have here. Other than adding water my PIP does the rest.

 

[NoSmokeYet]

From what I have read about the automobile it seems like most people have problems with them (is it doing this/is it doing that). I for one don't want to be concerned about the safety of my vehicle. I'll stick with horse drawn buggies for now, set them and forget them. As a hobbyist yes someday I will get an automobile of sorts and play with it, but not for $8000+. Soon I will upgrade to (4) horses Let it rip !

LOL. Not ever having been hands-on with LiFePO4's my post doesn't carry much weight. I know.

 

[boondox]

I check my batteries once a month and water about every 2-3. Takes me about 15 minutes to do the check and 30 minutes to add water. So say 3 hours a year. Not onerous. I do glance at the system readouts daily. My charge controller does the rest. Pretty close to "let it do its thing".

As I have said many times, I am not against lithium batteries and I have some and will have more in the future. But this whole FLA is like a horse and buggy, waste of time, only fools use FLA and what not just isn't true. Trying to make one size fits all in the energy world shows a lack of perspective. I have produced every watt I have used in a little over 20 years with FLA as my storage. My cost has been low and my up time pretty much 100%. Do I look forward to ditching FLA? Indeed I do. I am not blind to their limitations and issues. As the batteries and BMS and so on matures and the price for high quality lithium cells goes down I will be super happy to get fully on board. The thing is I cannot afford at current prices to replace a bank if something fails. If it happens when I am not at my homestead I will be truly screwed. With FLA I know I can go away and the system will be running when I return, at least with a very high probability. Could we just say "different stroke for different folk" and stop calling those using FLA idiots?

 

[Ped]

Horses dont pollute the air, they dont need gas, they eat grass, they dont need insurance. Lots could be said about using horses more.

 

[boondox]

Horses dont pollute the air, they dont need gas, they eat grass, they dont need insurance. Lots could be said about using horses more.

Ya know, I can't really argue with that! Plus you can eat 'em if times get tough!

 

[Supervstech]

Hi Supervstech nice Forum you have here. Other than adding water my PIP does the rest.

Oh, it’s not my forum... I just help out from time to time.

 

[Supervstech]

I check my batteries once a month and water about every 2-3. Takes me about 15 minutes to do the check and 30 minutes to add water. So say 3 hours a year. Not onerous. I do glance at the system readouts daily. My charge controller does the rest. Pretty close to "let it do its thing".

As I have said many times, I am not against lithium batteries and I have some and will have more in the future. But this whole FLA is like a horse and buggy, waste of time, only fools use FLA and what not just isn't true. Trying to make one size fits all in the energy world shows a lack of perspective. I have produced every watt I have used in a little over 20 years with FLA as my storage. My cost has been low and my up time pretty much 100%. Do I look forward to ditching FLA? Indeed I do. I am not blind to their limitations and issues. As the batteries and BMS and so on matures and the price for high quality lithium cells goes down I will be super happy to get fully on board. The thing is I cannot afford at current prices to replace a bank if something fails. If it happens when I am not at my homestead I will be truly screwed. With FLA I know I can go away and the system will be running when I return, at least with a very high probability. Could we just say "different stroke for different folk" and stop calling those using FLA idiots?

I hope nobody is calling any member an idiot!
FLA, SLA, AGM etc, all have their place for sure. Especially in cold storage environments... but dollars to doughnuts, lithium has a huge advantage. And the pitfalls are minor on a well designed and/or monitored system.

 

[bdbugbee]

Another thing to consider would be to purchase a "solar generator" all in one unit, like the Titan. It's stackable and portable enough that you could take it with you to the cabin and use it indoors. It's got two 1000 watt solar charge controllers and a 3000 watt inverter built in. The standard package comes with one 2 kWh battery (74 AH @ 24volts), but you can purchase additional batteries that are stackable on the unit. It also comes with a 500 watt AC wall charger that you could run off of the generator if you had to. Its a bit pricey ($2,995 for base unit with one battery) but you could use it at home as backup power and at the cabin as your main power source, plus you wouldn't have to worry about it being out in the cold during the winter.

 

[Cheesewiz]

A product to look at to keep batteries from freezing on the cheap is the Jump Start heat mat and thermostat for plants. 10x20" mats(15w). Attach one to each side of large battery banks and insulate.

Also, no need to worry about getting a new charge controller for low temp shutdown. Get a good BMS that has one.

 

[mvas]

Same way you do with other tests in every other piece of equipment: HALT (Highly accelerated life test), endurance tests, etc. For example, and in part, like this: https://agronomy.emu.ee/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Vol15SP1_Papezova.pdf

That test does prove that LiFePO4 can provide 2x to 3x more CYCLES, but the test contradicts this statement ... "well proven they last 6x to 20x longer than FLA", as claimed in message #2. Actually, that TEST proves that message #2 is a FALSE statement. And there has been no testing to prove that
any LiFeP04 can perform over a 20 year to 30 year AGING period to verify they can last 2x to 3x longer in time, than a 7 - 10 year old GC2 FLA battery bank.

It is very difficult to cost-justify a $900 100AH Battle-Born vs 2 @ 215 AH GC-2's cost $200 total when the GC-2's last for 7 - 10 years.

 

[Steve_S]

Hmmm, simple enough, I am transitioning from 856Ah of Rolls Surette S-500's heavy Deep Cycle Lead Acid to 910Ah of LFP right now. The LFP is costing me no more than if I had bought all replacements S-550's ! But then I am NOT FOOL ENOUGH to go buy $1,000 Battleborn Batteries... I'd be 9 Grand deep !

I'm in Northern Canada and I see -30C / -22F in winter as a matter of course (Colder too is not unusual). Powerhouse has a Recovered RV Furnace that uses 12VDC for power and is fuelled by Propane and with electronic ignition it is frugal (set to 10C / 50F). Being direct vent, it presents no issues. 40Lbs of LPG per winter and still have left over.... The Powerhouse is well insulated so it keep the heat nicely in winter and keeps the heat out In summer as well. The furnace came from a 3 year old wrecked RV and cost me $300 with all the extra bits and dual tank regulator too.

What LFP's I am using, it's simple, see the XUBA Electronics link in my signature. Yes, you have to build the packs yourself but for 1/3rd less than the cost of Battleborns. 4x280AH cells = 12V/280AH = Total $591.56 USD delivered. PLUS BMS & a box to put the cells in. NOTE, that is 280AH NOT 100 or 120.

 

[mvas]

Going the DIY route ( with XUBA cells or other mfr ) does make LiFePo4 more attractive.
So, approx $700 for ... 4 @ 280AH Cells + BMS + Container ?

SOAR brand ...
5.5 Years = Rated at 2,000 Cycles / 365 day per year

 

[Steve_S]

The XUBA link here: https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...4520d22qNJc8&bypass=true&fullFirstScreen=true

BMS & Box is extra and depends on what you want.
I'm making Battery Boxes from 3/4" Purebond Plywood but other options are available for folks depending on their needs / abilities / capabilities.

 

[Ped]

It is very difficult to cost-justify a $900 100AH Battle-Born vs 2 @ 215 AH GC-2's cost $200 total when the GC-2's last for 7 - 10 years.

Yes only $200.... + $400 in extra solar + $700 generator + $100 for a charger + $150 controller upgrade + 100 in watering and test equipment.

 

[NoSmokeYet]

That test does prove that LiFePO4 can provide 2x to 3x more CYCLES, but the test contradicts this statement ... "well proven they last 6x to 20x longer than FLA", as claimed in message #2. Actually, that TEST proves that message #2 is a FALSE statement. And there has been no testing to prove that
any LiFeP04 can perform over a 20 year to 30 year AGING period to verify they can last 2x to 3x longer in time, than a 7 - 10 year old GC2 FLA battery bank.

It is very difficult to cost-justify a $900 100AH Battle-Born vs 2 @ 215 AH GC-2's cost $200 total when the GC-2's last for 7 - 10 years.

Heck....who wants the same old batteries for 20 to 30 years. P.S. got my golf cart batteries today, I'am cranking out the Wh's?

 

[orangeminnie]

It is very difficult to cost-justify a $900 100AH Battle-Born vs 2 @ 215 AH GC-2's cost $200 total when the GC-2's last for 7 - 10 years.
[/QUOTE]

Well, more like 300-600 for a pair of quality GC-2's, even from Wallmart. For those of us who are not carrying around a generator, I like the ability to run the LiFePO4 batteries way below 50% and not worry about needing to charge them back up right away. As to the horse analogy: horses overlapped with cars for at least 40 years in the U.S., and 60+ years in other parts of the world. The transition away from FLA for deep cycle use may be a long process, and lead-based batteries are still great for engine starting. As to safety: any known cases of recent-design BMS-protected LiFePO4 causing fires or explosions? The hazards of explosions from FLA offgassing are well documented, and I've witnessed two of them.

 

[Rbertalotto]

This is a great post. I’m building a converted to electric garden tractor. Looking to decide between LA and Li.
I need roughly 75 usable AH at 48v to be able to run the tractor for 1 hour.
Four 12v / 150ah Concord GC batteries are $189 each, delivered. $756 total.
Try as I may, I can’t get anywhere near this price with a DIY Li system. Please show me I’m wrong here if im
The tractor will get about 50-70 hours of use a year. And at my age, if I get 5-7 years out of the batteries, I’ll call it good.
Weight of LA batteries in this application is very desirable for improved traction. Heck I’m adding hundreds of pounds to the tractor with wheel weights, lead hag on weights and fluid filled tires!
So in this case, I’m thinking LA is a better way to go......yes?

 

[Ped]

This is a great post. I’m building a converted to electric garden tractor. Looking to decide between LA and Li.
I need roughly 75 usable AH at 48v to be able to run the tractor for 1 hour.
Four 12v / 150ah Concord GC batteries are $189 each, delivered. $756 total.
Try as I may, I can’t get anywhere near this price with a DIY Li system. Please show me I’m wrong here if im
The tractor will get about 50-70 hours of use a year. And at my age, if I get 5-7 years out of the batteries, I’ll call it good.
Weight of LA batteries in this application is very desirable for improved traction. Heck I’m adding hundreds of pounds to the tractor with wheel weights, lead hag on weights and fluid filled tires!
So in this case, I’m thinking LA is a better way to go......yes?

Yes. Its continuous draw solar systems where the differences matter.

 

[JAS]

Hey everyone, It's been a while since I've checked this thread. Lots of good info! Thanks!

So I am currently mulling a solar "generator" like the Jackery or maybe the upcoming Bluetti AC200... Reason being is that I can cart it back and forth (as someone had mentioned in this thread regarding the Titan). I like the Jackery because of the light weight and I know I won't complain about lugging it. (But, waiting to catch a sale and see if it drops to $700). The Titan is just too expensive and while it is "portable", it's not light and convenient enough. Thus, I know I won't enjoy lugging it back and forth.

I'm also thinking along the lines of what someone else mentioned about using the FLA pack to run a heating pad to keep the LI pack warm.

Right now, I'm just watching prices and waiting for a sale. (Not interested in DIY packs).

 

[iceledoar]

Hey all,

So currently I have (2) 6V Golf Cart Batteries in series, (1) 240W 24v Solar Panel connected to a Renogy MPPT Tracer charge controller, (1) 100W 12v solar panel connected to a Renogy PWM charge controller, and a Xantrex ProWatt 600W pure sine wave inverter. This entire setup is outside in an unheated shed about 50' away from the cabin. I'm in central PA and the winters can occasionally get down to around zero degrees F for several days at a time. Yes, I have to water the batteries. But, only about 3-4 times a year and it's not really a problem...

This system has been running my entire recreational cabin for 6 years now and the batteries are still going strong. (I've only run them below 80% charge maybe twice and those two times not below 70%). My normal routine is to run our Champion 2000W inverter generator when running our freezer/fridge conversion, the vacuum, taking showers that uses our Shurflo water pump, and watching movies or the kids playing xbox. So for the most part, the batteries are only there for nightime lights, and flushing toilets, washing hands, etc. When I'm up by myself, I do use it more mainly because I don't always need the fridge and the batteries can easily handle my quick showers, plus no xbox

So at this point, I don't really "need" any more power. But, I would like longer runtime, such that we could watch a movie without having to worry about draining the batteries too far too fast. So the easiest and least expensive upgrade is to just get (4) GC2's and wire them up in series/parallel and as such double my runtime. This will cost me about $450. (I already have a 2nd 240W 24v panel that I can add to the MPPT as well)

Now, if I switch to LifePO4, I would be looking at (1) roughly 240AH 12v LifePO4 to match the (4) GC2s safe runtime. Looks like I could possibly find one of these in the $600 - $800 range (more if I buy from a more "trusted" source). Now I know the theoretical lifetime of these "should" be much longer than FLA. However, if I go this route, I also need to upgrade my charge controller to one with a low temperature cutoff and also setup some way to heat the batteries in the winter. (This could add another couple hundred.) So let's say to be safe, I'm looking at $1500 to go LifePO4 and let's say I can expect 20 years of use (I know maybe more). But, I'd have to deal with the low temp problem in the winter.

Currently, I have no worries about using and charging my batteries during the winter. If I switch, I imagine I'd have to be careful and pay more attention to making sure they're warm before charging as well as being careful not to drain them too far if I know I can't charge them... For $1500, I can stay with (4) GC2's and replace them 3 times. With my low usage, I expect to get 7-10 years out of the GC2's. So about the same long term costs as the LifePO4's... And that's assuming the GC2 prices stay the same

So am I missing something?

Thanks for any thoughts...

Jeff

Jeff I’m in a similar position, but on the new end of the spectrum. My place is way out there and not always kept warm in the winter. I decided to go with FLA’s. Having run the place for the last couple years off of a old trolling motor battery and finally upgraded to the Trojan Solar’s 6vdc’s is a huge difference. I know they are slower to charge but usually are full by noon the next day. Im sticking with FLA’s and keeping my money in my pocket. I did add a watering system so I should be able to leave vacant for a month or so during the summer. Avoiding the Arkansas heat and humidity.