help for existing grid tied system to add battery

[zanydroid]

Cheapest means nothing if you don't actually save anything.
I appreciate you looking at cost effective options but we need to find options that will get him through peak hours and 5kw ain't gonna cut it

5kWh is enough to get my house through. Dunno about their house, probably not with SoCal AC.

5kWh can probably net $2/day in the summer on a standard TOU plan savings. This needs to span 4-9pm in most parts of the state.

The breakpoint above 5kWh is going to superpeak EV plan, which in Northern California requires being able to make it from 3pm-12am on self consumption. That’s a real stretch

Also you save less in the winter vs the summer. My spreadsheet has seasonal adjustments

 

[zanydroid]

Anyway the point of 5P proposal is so OP has a specific design node to start modeling from.

That system is IMO under appreciated on this forum, probably because many people don’t use Enphase here or need to scale up to storage sizes where separate batteries are more economical

 

[1201]

How would that happen?

There were multiple people here in similar POCO/rate plans within same state that mathed out savings for their personal situation. It’s just not necessarily worth the cost of money when invested. The main thing I’m not sure about is whether Enphase supports forced exports (I looked at it a while back and I don’t remember the answer). Self consume definitely works

5kwh to 80%dod is 4kwh. That won't get far into the tou peak period.

.

 

[Hedges]

4kWh x $0.30 spread (in the summer) is $1.20/day, $36/month. I think that is 4 months, and other 8 months 2/3 as much, $24/month. $336/year, $3360 in a decade. Not worth paying over $2500 to buy and install.

 

[1201]

4kWh x $0.30 spread (in the summer) is $1.20/day, $36/month. I think that is 4 months, and other 8 months 2/3 as much, $24/month. $336/year, $3360 in a decade. Not worth paying over $2500 to buy and install.

Thanks for doing the math. I agree with you

 

[1201]

Anyway the point of 5P proposal is so OP has a specific design node to start modeling from.

That system is IMO under appreciated on this forum, probably because many people don’t use Enphase here or need to scale up to storage sizes where separate batteries are more economical

You are right. Most on here don't use micro inverters.

A victron 3000 system would be slightly cheaper and scale up better imo.

I don't know if the 5p system is scalable but it would get expensive quite fast.

It's nice to know about though

 

[zanydroid]

A victron 3000 system would be slightly cheaper and scale up better imo.

That’s not grid legal in California (two UL strikes against it, and is not on the approved list that the POCOs use for hardware) and would not be cheaper in 120/240 config

 

[1201]

That’s not grid legal in California (two UL strikes against it, and is not on the approved list that the POCOs use for hardware) and would not be cheaper in 120/240 config

Ok which tell ul strikes? Also, if one is adding a battery inverter do they have to notify the poco?

2 victrons and one 5kwh battery would be less than $4000

 

[zanydroid]

Ok which tell ul strikes? Also, if one is adding a battery inverter do they have to notify the poco?

2 victrons and one 5kwh battery would be less than $4000

1741 instead of 1741SB

No 9540

Not on CEC list

2 victrons and one 5kWh battery costs the same as an Enphase 5P, if that’s where you want to stop on size. Of course it rapidly gets better from cost angle. So does a 18kpv, eventually.

Yes, you notify the POCO, and they got approval to gather high res data recently that would facilitate unapproved parallel connected battery detection.

 

[1201]

1741 instead of 1741SB

No 9540

Not on CEC list

2 victrons and one 5kWh battery costs the same as an Enphase 5P, if that’s where you want to stop on size. Of course it rapidly gets better from cost angle. So does a 18kpv, eventually.

Copy.

Yes, you notify the POCO, and they got approval to gather high res data recently that would facilitate unapproved parallel connected battery detection.

Wow. That's crazy. Where can I read about this?

 

[zanydroid]

Wow. That's crazy. Where can I read about this?

Interconnection rules or resolution? Resolution, I'm not sure, I've heard it was part of the transition from NEM2 -> NEM3. You can also look in the spec sheet for smart meter, they have very high resolution if chose to turn it on. It's probably in one of the PUC decisions from last year.

Interconnection. Find the Rule21 for POCO

You can start with what I consider baby's first Rule21 -- Modesto Irrigation District. Like 20 pages, mostly readable by humans.

And then join the big kids by reading one from the invester owned POCOs like PG&E. 300 pages. Not really readable by humans. The interconnection chapters in aggregate are as long as Baby's First Rule21 in its entirety.

 

[1201]

Interconnection rules or resolution? Resolution, I'm not sure, I've heard it was part of the transition from NEM2 -> NEM3. You can also look in the spec sheet for smart meter, they have very high resolution if chose to turn it on. It's probably in one of the PUC decisions from last year.

Interconnection. Find the Rule21 for POCO

You can start with what I consider baby's first Rule21 -- Modesto Irrigation District. Like 20 pages, mostly readable by humans.

And then join the big kids by reading one from the invester owned POCOs like PG&E. 300 pages. Not really readable by humans. The interconnection chapters in aggregate are as long as Baby's First Rule21 in its entirety.

No I mean where they got approval to detect unapproved battery installations.

I mean, they've probably been able to detect for a while but do they have authority to do anything about it?

 

[zanydroid]

I mean, they've probably been able to detect for a while but do they have authority to do anything about it?

There’s some threads about this on the forum, not for California.

Most recent — Someone got slapped by their POCO because of an off-grid inverter that wasn’t actually properly implemented as off grid.

 

[1201]

There’s some threads about this on the forum, not for California.

Most recent — Someone got slapped by their POCO because of an off-grid inverter that wasn’t actually properly implemented as off grid.

I can understand unpermitted spurious backfeed prompting investigation by the poco but I can't understand how reducing one's usage with an unpermitted battery would do the same. But hey, it's Cali!

 

[zanydroid]

I can understand unpermitted spurious backfeed prompting investigation by the poco but I can't understand how reducing one's usage with an unpermitted battery would do the same. But hey, it's Cali!

They’ll see you backfeeding at night and notice you aren't enrolled in NEM storage.

NEM storage also has some policing to detect abuse. Like charging from grid and selling it back. That is not allowed and kind of an a—hole thing to do at retail compensation rates.

 

[1201]

They’ll see you backfeeding at night and notice you aren't enrolled in NEM storage.

NEM storage also has some policing to detect abuse. Like charging from grid and selling it back. That is not allowed and kind of an a—hole thing to do at retail compensation rates.

There is nem storage? Cali energy keeps getting more bizarre the more I learn abt it. There are systems that can almost zero out consumption with no backfeed from battery

 

[Hedges]

California is pushing storage. That's the reason for NEM 3.0, with abysmal credits during the afternoon (when total consumption is highest.) They explicitly intend to push people to adding batteries.
And then yes, we can backfeed the grid. During a couple hours of the Duck's Head, when available generation minus consumption is smallest, a large credit is available.

They don't allow net metering consumers to charge from grid off peak and backfeed during peak. Even thought that would benefit just as much in terms of avoiding shortfall. They want someone else to do that under a different rate schedule.

 

[1201]

California is pushing storage. That's the reason for NEM 3.0, with abysmal credits during the afternoon (when total consumption is highest.) They explicitly intend to push people to adding batteries.
And then yes, we can backfeed the grid. During a couple hours of the Duck's Head, when available generation minus consumption is smallest, a large credit is available.

They don't allow net metering consumers to charge from grid off peak and backfeed during peak. Even thought that would benefit just as much in terms of avoiding shortfall. They want someone else to do that under a different rate schedule.

But I'm concerned about their policing unpermitted storage? Is that really a thing out there?

 

[Hedges]

Don't know about policing. Backfeed without net metering would be detected. Backfeed when the sun don't shine could be too, depending on time granularity implemented.

I wouldn't want a fire hazard, UL listed and permitted or not. No lithium in the house.

 

[zanydroid]

California is on the forefront of tightening up ESS rules, and the official rules are adopted by a lot of other states at around the same time or 1 cycle later. There's enough fire danger here as it is.

Is it maybe a bit overkill and regulatory capture? Perhaps. I'm expecting things to back off in a few years.