High end, brand name LiFePO4 batteries - local pickup PNW only

[MurphyGuy]

You should list a price you want for the batteries. The old "Make me an offer" stuff doesn't work well. Most people aren't willing to negotiate with themselves for a product you're selling.

 

[SHTF Power Anyway]

Posting pictures and some specs on the batteries might help sell them...

Are they these ones?

eFlex 5.4kWh LFP Battery - Fortress Power

Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery Eflex 5.4 KWH is a highly durable, efficient LifeP04 battery that comes with a 10 Year Warranty and remote monitoring features.

www.fortresspower.com

Yes, those are the batteries. Thank you for posting the link.

 

[SHTF Power Anyway]

Based on "the other thread," it is a combination of the BMS, the relay, and a few other little things. They seem to be more designed for duck-curve peak shaving rather than off-grid or fully self-sufficient use. I believe the manufacturer indicated that the real losses were more like 18W, but over the course of a 18-hour discharge it starts to matter. If you have the extra capacity for cloudy days then it can easily be 1kWh/battery = 20% in losses over a couple days.

The seller's issue with the batteries is ultimately more linked to being under-paneled and thinking they could get away with extra batteries to compensate-- it is an honest mistake/misunderstanding about how the practical application of the system works that would be a valuable lesson for many.

I hope @Will Prowse someday does a video comparing losses of different batteries over a 24-hour discharge. It seems to give a huge incentive to go with the 300Ah 48V batteries rather than the 100Ah batteries. I think it is dishonest of the battery manufacturers to list cell capacity as the system capacity and not list any losses or parasitic loads.

I agree that this is a valuable lesson for anyone new to solar. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has invested in a sizable system (sold as a typical kit by some of the distributors) who didn't understand that, in my particular area, the technology wasn't quite suitable, especially in an off grid format. For me, I have limited room left for more panels so my options are to look at equipment that is less power hungry while still looking for areas suitable to put up more panels. Based on many responses to the other threads I've posted, even seasoned solar consumers were surprised by what my situation uncovered. This just shouldn't be the case.

When efficiency numbers are posted by a manufacturer, they should have meaning to the consumer, not the industry. The excuse for the 98% efficiency made zero sense to anyone who read it. The excuse was repeated by the distributor as well but I do know that my questions and dissatisfaction brought an important issue to their attention. My hope is that they help guide future customers to a better package and technology if the customers goals are similar to mine.

I see so many people adding a huge amount of batteries to their systems to buy them time for inclement weather. I could have purchased 4 less of these specific batteries and only had the minimum for my system to run but I would have been in similar position. And, with these batteries, adding more batteries actually means more of a parasitic load that's not really recoverable by solar alone. If you look at my screen name, I've been preparing for SHTF. So my system was installed with that in mind. These last few months were making sure we understood our capabilities and management of this system. In this timeframe, attacks on the grid occurred in our very own county. My fear has not been irrational. And I live in a state with a tyrant bent on pushing the WEF green agenda. I'm between two cities that are looking at 20 minute neighborhoods or 15 minute cities.

I bought the exact package of equipment that I did based on some trusted YouTube channels, the perceived high quality of the equipment, the ability to be flexible in the way I installed the equipment (in case I was wrong about the direction of this world), and what appeared to be an ease of managing said equipment. I wasn't trying to "get away" with less investment. I felt like I was fire-hosing money at my desire to not be completely powerless if the grid goes down. With a slipped vertebrae, a declining mental capacity of my soul mate, and aging rather poorly, it was a decision made over a 3 year period and I still got it absolutely wrong. I joined this site the day I ordered my equipment. You don't know what you don't know until you know you don't know it. lol Hindsight, I wish I had been a member here first but would that have made a better design decision? Had I gone with a local installer, I would have been sold the same equipment from one of the companies. The other would have had me in a very large lead acid battery bank that would not likely have stood the test of time.

All of the above might be particularly useful information for anyone but it's particularly important in the PNW. These batteries may be just fine for someone who sees the world differently. Most do. But they should still understand what they're buying.

 

[SHTF Power Anyway]

Too bad I can't get one of those things to fit into my golf cart or I might have bought one if the price was right.

Come on, MurphyGuy! You need a vacation and you can always use your hammer to build a bigger space on your golf cart! <3

 

[SHTF Power Anyway]

You should list a price you want for the batteries. The old "Make me an offer" stuff doesn't work well. Most people aren't willing to negotiate with themselves for a product you're selling.

You're right. It's hard when you're not sure what the market will and/or should bear. There's a price point where selling these makes zero sense. But, for their usefulness in my position, getting something back so I can reinvest in a more suitable product is important. I can sit here and say I paid $35,100 for my battery bank, not including cables. So what? The price is coming down now too.

I think $1,700 per battery is fair. I will modify the post near the top so it's made more clear. Thank you for the advice and feedback.

 

[MurphyGuy]

You're right. It's hard when you're not sure what the market will and/or should bear. There's a price point where selling these makes zero sense. But, for their usefulness in my position, getting something back so I can reinvest in a more suitable product is important. I can sit here and say I paid $35,100 for my battery bank, not including cables. So what? The price is coming down now too.

I think $1,700 per battery is fair. I will modify the post near the top so it's made more clear. Thank you for the advice and feedback.

You should also find out if the warranty on them is transferable to the new owner.

One of the attributes any buyer is going to have to consider is that the gov is offering a 30% tax credit on solar systems, and that credit now includes batteries, but it must be new equipment. So in essence, that $3500 battery (as new) is only $2450 after the rebates, and it has a warranty and hasn't been used.

I think $1700 is in the ballpark..

 

[SHTF Power Anyway]

Here's the data sheet for the batteries. Clarifications should be made based on what we learned in the "other thread":

The efficiency (at 0.5C) of >98% is not any kind of measure of their true efficiency with any meaning to the consumer.

The self discharge rate of <1%/Month is with the batteries fully powered off. The batteries left on at idle powering no loads at all is just over 12 watts. This was a number arrived at during testing with @MurphyGuy. Most people wouldn't use these batteries this way so this number is fairly meaningless.

The maximum allowed modules in parallel has changed since I purchased these. It used to be 16. Either way, if you need more power storage, it's cheaper and far more efficient to buy their larger batteries.

The DOD to 0% will significantly alter the longevity of the equipment.

The warranty of 10 years, according to the written warranty document, is only for initial install and requires a professional installation.

The warranty to 8,000 cycles is dependent on a number of factors. Read the warranty document thoroughly. The life cycles warranted changed recently from 6,000 to 8,000.

Their claims of ruggedness are misleading in a PNW environment. The temperatures listed for operation are also misleading. What the documents say and what the Fortress support staff say are two separate things. Make sure these batteries can stay above 40F. Had I been keeping these, I would have needed to move them so I could insulate them in a small room where the heat they generate consuming themselves could have kept them warmer. They are in an uninsulated shop wrapped in R19 at present. They're "RUGGED" in a clean, water free, dust free, temperature controlled setting for all intents and purposes.

There's probably more to pick apart here but that's where my knowledge ends and this forum can likely pick up with their technical electrical experience.

 

[SHTF Power Anyway]

You should also find out if the warranty on them is transferable to the new owner.

One of the attributes any buyer is going to have to consider is that the gov is offering a 30% tax credit on solar systems, and that credit now includes batteries, but it must be new equipment. So in essence, that $3500 battery (as new) is only $2450 after the rebates, and it has a warranty and hasn't been used.

I think $1700 is in the ballpark..

The lack of warranty and loss of rebates were considered in the pricing. The written warranty says initial install only.

 

[Checkthisout]

Put them on Facebook marketplace.

$1700.00 per battery is way too much.

 

[Ampster]

$1700.00 per battery is way too much

That is $315 per kWh

 

[Checkthisout]

That is $315 per kWh

For used, possibly no warranty vs what else on the market?

 

[Ampster]

For used, possibly no warranty vs what else on the market?

DIY comes in at under $200 per kWh and other brand new rack units are around $300 per kWh with a warranty.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Put them on Facebook marketplace.

$1700.00 per battery is way too much.

It's way to much for us folks who like to build our own battery packs.. for someone without those skills who needs a plug-and-play solution, it's not that bad of a deal.

 

[Checkthisout]

It's way to much for us folks who like to build our own battery packs.. for someone without those skills who needs a plug-and-play solution, it's not that bad of a deal.

You guys are horrible negotiators.

 

[SHTF Power Anyway]

DIY comes in at under $200 per kWh and other brand new rack units are around $300 per kWh. As mentioned earlier, I am concerned that it was trickle charged and it is not good for Lithium batteries to stay at high SOC for extended times.

These have not been trickle charged. The system is installed and running. When batteries have begun to get low, the loads have been moved back to the grid while the system recharges using PV. This is simply because I don't want to grid tie and I have no need to waste fuel using the generator to recharge these batteries.

These were discharged to exactly 51.30 volts measured by a Fluke 789 at which point a cycle was seen to be added to the BMS software. This was the lowest these batteries were allowed to discharge and occurred during a recent test to determine idle consumption. The system was then turned off overnight before being recharged via PV over the next few days without load. @MurphyGuy was instructing me as to how to perform this test. Measurements were taken over several days and documented. We've also carefully watched the temperatures morning and night. We've heated the space with a propane heater when the forecast showed any potential to drop temperatures below freezing. We have a thermometer with min/max on the wall against which these batteries are installed. This has remained at 40 or above. The batteries themselves are wrapped in R19 insulation just in case which will be removed by the end of the week after our next round of weather dropping to 33F (likely only in the hills above our location) one night this week.

I hope this helps.

 

[SHTF Power Anyway]

It's way to much for us folks who like to build our own battery packs.. for someone without those skills who needs a plug-and-play solution, it's not that bad of a deal.

I may have a local company with the skillset to use the cells. If they're welded in, are they still usable for a large battery bank?

 

[Ampster]

These have not been trickle charged.

My mistake, I had them confused with another post. I corrected my post.

 

[SHTF Power Anyway]

My mistake, I had them confused with another post. I corrected my post.

For a second there I thought I was missing a comment or somehow didn't understand a post. I feel better now. lol Thanks for fixing it.

 

[Solar Guppy]

I may have a local company with the skillset to use the cells. If they're welded in, are they still usable for a large battery bank?

Yes, they are fully useable as is, because there is nothing wrong with them.

All parts of an energy system has losses. While Lifep04 batteries do have electronics for optimal round trip storage performance, even with tar losses, they are better than any other technology ( AGM , Lead Acid for example ) available as the latter has even larger losses due to the chemical reaction chemistry differences.

Why you drive your car, it loses close to 80% of the available energy to heat, people still use them and don't blame the manufactures for NOT telling them.

Since you don't need all 10 batteries online for your loads ( or two inverters for that matter) simply power off the unneeded equipment.

I would suggest you turn-off one Sol-Ark and 8 of the batteries ( once fully charged ) and run one one Sol-Ark and 10kw of battery. Then rotate through the batteries as needed. This will resolve the tar load issue. No other LifeP04 battery will be any different. My 10kw BYD battery uses 4% a day, as expected. The solar twice a day tops off the battery to 100% when it hits 98%.

You issue is not technology, it's a need of education, but this is NOT meant you did anything wrong! If you want to have your own power plant, you have to have the skills to build, maintain, debug and repair, just like the power company does for the generation equipment.

Just about anything can be DYI with the proper knowledge, I hope you can see that's what is missing, and it is NEVER too late to learn new skills

 

[cs1234]

@Solar Guppy

Quit making excuses for Fortress and blaming this poor lady.

We've already been through this on the other thread. Fortress had a representative hear spouting nonsense about how great his batteries are. I believe he is very high up in Fortress, possibly CTO level. He pointed out repeatedly that the BMS's we use in our batteries that we build and or purchase from companies like Signature Solar, SOK, Trophy, etc.. are dangerous. He justified their abnormally high self consumption vs their competitors as a safety and reliability design decision. They just don't publish the idle consumption numbers, some companies do, some don't. They all should though.

In another thread, about his new Inverter, called the Envy, I asked him about the idle consumption of the inverter, and he refused to answer. He actually gave a sarcastic answer back, saying it's about what other companies inverters are.

@SHTF Power Anyway has already read everything you are saying, in the other thread. She just wants to unload the batteries, which are UL listed (though not by UL itself) unlike many other batteries we like around here. It's a shame the warranty doesn't transfer, and that it's only valid when installed by a certified installer.. but it's a shady industry that's allowed to get away with such garbage, so why shouldn't they.

Could she use more solar? Sure, why not, you can never have too much solar! If she had batteries with a lower idle consumption, and didn't get Sol-Arks, she would be in a much better spot with her current panels though.

None of what she has done looks good from a cost stand point of course, but she is clearly motivated by something else based on her handle and messages. She thinks the world is going to go tits up, and wants to have some batteries that will store her hard to come by accumulated solar energy as frugally as possible, frugally meaning wattage wasted, not money wasted. Unfortunately she purchased little piggy batteries because there were no published specs indicating 12-30watt idle consumption.

Spoiler: EG4 battery spec sheet, lists idle consumption, unlike Fortress

The Fortress batteries would make excellent time shifter batteries, or grid tied back up batteries. Unfortunately, for most of us, warrantied brand new batteries like SS, SOK, Trophy etc.. also make great batteries.. if you trust their FET based design over a contactor based design and aren't too concerned about lack of UL ESS matching or UL listings in general.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I may have a local company with the skillset to use the cells. If they're welded in, are they still usable for a large battery bank?

A lot of that depends on how they're assembled... mostly if it's just worth the effort. Sometimes they assemble these packs in a way that makes them a total and complete pain in the rear to do anything with. You need superior craftsmanship, some magic dust, and a bit of luck.

Other times, its just a matter of cutting the welds. And of course, all this depends on the type of final product one is after. At the end of the day, you could use alligator clips to connect them, but that doesn't produce a professional or reliable job.

I'd have to see how it's put together to have a real opinion..

 

[cs1234]

@MurphyGuy

They are probably amazingly well built batteries. It would be a shame to gut them vs use them in an environment where they would excel.

 

[cs1234]

@SHTF Power Anyway

You would probably be better off from a cost standpoint if you were able to take that Fortress offer of swapping them out for those larger batteries of theirs, even with them being "refurbs" or whatever. Fortress didn't give us any actual idle consumption specs on them, but if they are really the same consumption rate as each smaller battery, but nearly 3 times as large capacity wise, that would help quite a bit with your idle consumption.

That sounds like the better way to go, even paying for some shipping, vs taking a 50% + price bath on recently purchased batteries.

 

[Solar Guppy]

@Solar Guppy

Quit making excuses for Fortress and blaming this poor lady.

This is about expectation, design and every product has pluses and minuses. This is not the OP fault, they thought someone who makes their living by selling would provide the design that met the needs. It's never that way, they ( sales ) live and die by tuning over inventory, nothing else.

If a product is used in a manner that is not optimal, such as 10, 5 kwh batteries, each with its own bms, that isn't an optimal configuration. If one looks at what is done in the HV battery market, you can stack up to 32 kwh into a single BMS ( BYD Batterybox HVL ) Pylontech and others have similar configurations. Is the Fortress the best available choice I don't know, but not being the best doesn't mean it is broken and throw it out or sell for a loss.

The reason there are trades, such as Electrical, Plumbing, HVAC and many others is there is a knowledge set needed to provide expertise and optimal solutions. The idea that anyone can build a power plant seems to leave out before your spend 10's of thousands of your hard earned dollars that you need to be an expert yourself, or things many not turn out well.

Sales has been and will always be a race to the bottom, they should NEVER be relied on for designing, say it again Never.

So the path with the least cost is keep what you have and adjust to make it as good as it can be, in this case, keep most of it in storage and rotate as the capacity is mismatched to the need.

Finally, I've been in and out of this industry for over 20 years, it is constant flux of new vendors, little to no testing and stranded customer's. Until there are standards of required performance, it will never changes and the manufacture's seem to be destin to repeat the sames mistakes. My personal view is the mobile market set the bar ( customer is the tester ) and that doesn't work well for quality of hardware.

 

[SHTF Power Anyway]

They are probably amazingly well built batteries. It would be a shame to gut them vs use them in an environment where they would excel.

I had an offer to purchase some but my loss at the price is hard to swallow today. I’m still chewing on it and considering options.