initial planning with these highly detailed diagrams

[cdoublejj--]

EDIT: please keep in mind these diaphragms are electrically and anatomically correct! Just jam the yellow wires in there to make it all work, battery banks are invisible and use wireless electricity. Additionally there big loads like compressors and pumps used often or daily not acounting for A/C or furnaces.

As things are now, piggy back style.

Some ideas

two all in ones, piggy back style, big one (eg4 18k 12kw) with little one piggy backed (6000xp, 6kw)

monolith, all the panels, one lone eg4 18k 12kw, i don't know that this is possible, lets say they are just UNDER 90ish foot from each other.

Double eg4 18k 12kws, run the microwave, crock pot, toaster, furnace at the same time in the house, while running the compressors, plasma cutter, welder, grinders in the shop at the same time. additionally possibly more panels on out buildings or outside.


can these all in ones be piggy backed? i assume if yes the building on the right can NOT give power to the building on the right, ie no power sharing.

 

[hwy17]

Monolith for sure. Parallel inverters together in the powerhouse if necessary.

PV and AC power both travel distances well and having all your storage in one battery bank is better.

 

[Snaketzu]

The biggest thing I see here is that these are not planned in a configuration to be functional with batteries.
If there are two inverters in the system they have to talk to each other. I don't know if the 6000xp can be run in parallel with an 18K but I don't think so. This could be done using the generator input on the 18K accepting the 6000xp output in AC coupled mode. Not sure how this would work with batteries, probably need to check with EG4.
Assuming a standard 200A service grid tie, you would need a new 200A exterior service disconnect (I recommend a main breaker in a box, fused disconnect is expensive and unnecessary). For battery function to be automatic, your grid power would then need to be routed through the 18k before going to the panel. This is the bare minimum. For two inverters, some kind of parallel wiring system will be needed. This can get tricky and the system wiring diagrams in the EG4 manual are not the most helpful in this regard. Systems wired this way will need a load shed system from PGP Systems to automatically handle any demands over what your solar/battery system is capable of on its own if the grid tie goes down. Alternately, you can utilize the EG4 diagrams and move all loads you want to be on the battery system into a secondary "emergency" loads panel. This must all be sized so that demand doesn't exceed the inverter(s) capacity.
Air conditioning compressors should get a soft start module if they are going to be run off of the inverter system.
I wouldn't put an inverter on each structure, I would put a DC disconnect on the second structure and bring the DC wiring to the first structure where all of the inverters and disconnect will be grouped with the service meter. This will avoid issues with your AHJ and let your inverters work in parallel like they need to. Tapping them in to multiple places in the system makes code compliance and performance problematic.

 

[robbob2112]

I would put AIO in whichever house makes the most sense. (probably the last house on the left, queue horror movie music)

• Batteries MUST be in the same house as the AIO since high amps DC needs short cables.
• Put solar panels on both houses - MUST have each string separate - i.e. 4 strings, 1 per roof side

Right house

• Electrical panel is a subpanel of the left house
• Solar string is highest voltage that makes sense with the MPPT in the AIO given the travel distance
• Use a combiner box outside with a midnite solar SPD and breaker per string
• Convient place to T off the EGC to the roof top frames
• NOTE - the frames on this house are attached to the grounding system of the left house verse to the grounding system of the right house. This is to prevent ground loops.

Left house

• Main panel for both houses and the service entrance
• Has the system ground rod (might be 2 6ft apart if the soil is particularly dry)
• Has the N-G bond
• Combiner box with another SPD to protect the equipment from induced voltage from nearby lightning stikes
• Combiner has breakers for each local string
• Combiner may need multiple wires in to AIO depending on solar configuration and MPPT capacity.
• Contains Battery banks
• Contains AIO to service the entire load - might be one, might be multiple stacked.

And just hope the big bad wolf doesn't show up to blow your piggy house down.

 

[hwy17]

If there are two inverters in the system they have to talk to each other.

Cascading non communicating inverters is possible, but it's an area of ongoing exploration. I know Will likes to mess around with it, making up the grid input for one inverter with the load output of another.

But I would also stick with central and communicating.

 

[cdoublejj--]

that's considered parallel? i much dislike planning. there are so many constraints that can not be conveyed. Power comes in off the pole and go in to the garage, a big ass cable in conduit leaves the garage breaker and goes under ground in to the house's breaker. i thought that was series? or maybe it's "cascading"?

i would like to have batteries there are some gotchas. lack of space. i'd be lucky to get one 18k in the garage next to the break box, let alone a wall mount eg4 battery, i was actually thinking maybe a rack in the middle of the garage. a LOT of stuff would have to go bye bye to get the wall that breaker is on free.

The house that gets the power from the garage has even less space. i'm not even sure how i could fit an inverter inside. maybe an addition to the house.

one of you is saying that i can run PV a long a ways. if thats true i may befit from each building have an AIO. the gazebo next to the house could run to an AIO in the house. in theory it could run in to the garage but, that raises risk of hitting the main run from the garage to the house that currently exists.

2 buildings and 3 roofs. batteries wouldn't be too far from the AIOs. if i centralize yall think i can have 100 foot run back to the AIO(s) in the garage? I seem to be married to the idea of over paneling assuming i'm using that word right. after under $200 a panel why wouldn't i get as many as i can fit and then some? The AIOs are the big cost. Batteries and panels can be bought piece meal.


also i think but, have not looked in a while, that run from garage (left house) is three wires, meaning the ground between both is bonded, or atleast linked. both building have a ground rod or two. i actually plan to add more ground rods, SPDs can't do a whole lot without grounding. well maybe save form a ZeroSurge SPD, which claims they can surge protect with no ground but, i digress.

Yalls seems to think 100ft is okay PV runs. Also that could run TWO EG4 18Ks in parallel if i wanted? BUT, paralleling them is a hell of a thing? i'd need a big junction box to parallel to eg4 18ks?

 

[ThaiTaffy]

100ft really isn't a big deal especially when your dealing with alot of panels in series, but my two cents would be your talking about big batteries big inverters and not much space so why not make a dedicated (fire safe) room somewhere off the garage to fit everything, then run any cables from the garage to that.
Panels on the house, panels on the garage those runs really aren't much of a problem with the distances your talking about the main ones, which aren't great at distance is the battery cables and should be kept as short as possible, AC and PV cables you can run as far as you want within reason.

 

[robbob2112]

that's considered parallel? i much dislike planning. there are so many constraints that can not be conveyed. Power comes in off the pole and go in to the garage, a big ass cable in conduit leaves the garage breaker and goes under ground in to the house's breaker. i thought that was series? or maybe it's "cascading"?

Load side tap is what that sounds like

i would like to have batteries there are some gotchas. lack of space. i'd be lucky to get one 18k in the garage next to the break box, let alone a wall mount eg4 battery, i was actually thinking maybe a rack in the middle of the garage. a LOT of stuff would have to go bye bye to get the wall that breaker is on free.

The house that gets the power from the garage has even less space. i'm not even sure how i could fit an inverter inside. maybe an addition to the house.

Mount them on the outside - They can be weather proof - the Eg4-18kpv certainly is. There are Eg4 wall mount batteries that are.

one of you is saying that i can run PV a long a ways. if thats true i may befit from each building have an AIO. the gazebo next to the house could run to an AIO in the house. in theory it could run in to the garage but, that raises risk of hitting the main run from the garage to the house that currently exists.

This is true if you use as high a voltage DC as is practical

2 buildings and 3 roofs. batteries wouldn't be too far from the AIOs. if i centralize yall think i can have 100 foot run back to the AIO(s) in the garage? I seem to be married to the idea of over paneling assuming i'm using that word right. after under $200 a panel why wouldn't i get as many as i can fit and then some? The AIOs are the big cost. Batteries and panels can be bought piece meal.

Many people have a run of 150 or more for their PV wires - just takes larger conductors and running the higher voltage mentioned above. Just don't exceed the input voltage on your SCC by even a few volts for under a second or you chance releasing the magic smoke.

also i think but, have not looked in a while, that run from garage (left house) is three wires, meaning the ground between both is bonded, or atleast linked. both building have a ground rod or two. i actually plan to add more ground rods, SPDs can't do a whole lot without grounding. well maybe save form a ZeroSurge SPD, which claims they can surge protect with no ground but, i digress.

There can be only one unless had 2 meters from the same pole but not connected in any other way. What you have with ground rods at both places is asking for a ground loop and for a nearby lightning strike to let out all sorts of smoke.

BUT if both the garage and house are tied together electrically as in load side tap or wires up into the garage and down and over into the house then there should be one ground rod or a pair of ground rods at the garage, and ALL other grounding is tied only to them. Adding ground rods at the house is adding a ground loop and asking for wierd troubles.

Yalls seems to think 100ft is okay PV runs.

yes, see above

Also that could run TWO EG4 18Ks in parallel if i wanted? BUT, paralleling them is a hell of a thing? i'd need a big junction box to parallel to eg4 18ks?

It is in the Eg4 manual around page 36 or so. You are missing that the 18k they are taking about is capacity of the solar charge controller. The inverter itself will only put out around 50~60 amps per Eg4 when running on batteries. Most resdential runs on less than 120amps all the time. A 200amp service gives you the capacity to run a large AC, hot tub, water heater, and dryer all at once without dimming the lights. Most of those appliances take 30~50amps to start then quite a lot less after that.

 

[cdoublejj--]

100ft really isn't a big deal especially when your dealing with alot of panels in series, but my two cents would be your talking about big batteries big inverters and not much space so why not make a dedicated (fire safe) room somewhere off the garage to fit everything, then run any cables from the garage to that.
Panels on the house, panels on the garage those runs really aren't much of a problem with the distances your talking about the main ones, which aren't great at distance is the battery cables and should be kept as short as possible, AC and PV cables you can run as far as you want within reason.

oooooooohhh you're really attracting my ire! Just preying on my wants and dreams of making a dog house for the air compressor and expanding on it to fit an EG4 AIO too!!! trying to scope creep me!

Load side tap is what that sounds like



Mount them on the outside - They can be weather proof - the Eg4-18kpv certainly is. There are Eg4 wall mount batteries that are.


This is true if you use as high a voltage DC as is practical


Many people have a run of 150 or more for their PV wires - just takes larger conductors and running the higher voltage mentioned above. Just don't exceed the input voltage on your SCC by even a few volts for under a second or you chance releasing the magic smoke.


There can be only one unless had 2 meters from the same pole but not connected in any other way. What you have with ground rods at both places is asking for a ground loop and for a nearby lightning strike to let out all sorts of smoke.

BUT if both the garage and house are tied together electrically as in load side tap or wires up into the garage and down and over into the house then there should be one ground rod or a pair of ground rods at the garage, and ALL other grounding is tied only to them. Adding ground rods at the house is adding a ground loop and asking for wierd troubles.



yes, see above



It is in the Eg4 manual around page 36 or so. You are missing that the 18k they are taking about is capacity of the solar charge controller. The inverter itself will only put out around 50~60 amps per Eg4 when running on batteries. Most resdential runs on less than 120amps all the time. A 200amp service gives you the capacity to run a large AC, hot tub, water heater, and dryer all at once without dimming the lights. Most of those appliances take 30~50amps to start then quite a lot less after that.

-5-f before wind chill to 105+f seems to be the weather here. inside the garage is nicer since it's earth contact. which also means an addon for an extra room is going to be bit a of work, at least i assume. i might need to get some opinions from my dirt moving friends.


it might not be be add to assume to 100+ft after bends, sweeps and conduits. what about longer than 150ft? say i have more real estate further out? as far as greed and over paneling goes?

 

[robbob2112]

Check the battery specs. A small room with an exhaust fan for summer insulated in winter would contain both and the inverter heat waste would help keep the batteries at a reasonable temp. The exterior batteries will self heat in winter so no worries on adding heat beyond what the inverters exhaust.

 

[EZPZ]

it might not be be add to assume to 100+ft after bends, sweeps and conduits. what about longer than 150ft? say i have more real estate further out? as far as greed and over paneling goes?

My panels are over 400ft away from the 18kpv.

 

[cdoublejj--]

Check the battery specs. A small room with an exhaust fan for summer insulated in winter would contain both and the inverter heat waste would help keep the batteries at a reasonable temp. The exterior batteries will self heat in winter so no worries on adding heat beyond what the inverters exhaust.

the more i think about it, it would get bonus cause the room would be mostly under ground. it's an earth contact building, so any expansion would be underground. also it's sounding very expansive the more i think about it. pouring a pad, building block walls etc etc. also everything i know lithium and lifepo4 the nicer you treat them ,the longer they will last in years to come.

My panels are over 400ft away from the 18kpv.

what kind of cable did you need to for that run?

i can setup multiple strings on multiple roofs and put those in a combiner box?

 

[robbob2112]

Read this for ideas

Design for "ultimate" "fire-proof" 274kWh+ battery shed

Having a BMS fail to isolate is always a concern for a single string or 16 strings in parallel, the risk of damage for 16 is just much higher. If a single cell is exposed to over-voltage, it could start a cascade of failures - to all the cells in a pack, and all the packs in an ESS. The...

diysolarforum.com

Not saying everything is right, but if you do the stuff in it to make the room(s) fireproof you will be money ahead.

 

[EZPZ]

what kind of cable did you need to for that run?

I used 600v rated pv cabling. In buried conduit. Think it was 10awg as I wasn’t sending lots of amps just lots of volts.

 

[robbob2112]

For wire in conduit it is usually cheaper to use THWN wire. It is good for wet locations. Cross-sectional area is all that matters for current carrying capacity. Going up a size or two reduces the losses due to distance, there is a table for that. Stranded is easier to pull than solid wire. And for long pulls I cheat and feed the wire through while I am assembling the conduit a section at a time.

Either way there are a lot of posts on pulling wire if you search.

Also figure whatever size conduit you need and go up a size or 3. It makes the pull easier.

 

[ThaiTaffy]

If you really want to cheat tie a plastic bag to some string stick it in one side of the conduit then stick a shop vacuum on the other end, quickest cable pull known to man.

 

[cdoublejj--]

it's a block building. i've found a no Burn and i swear there was youtube video on how ot make it at home since it's borax based and there is also intumescent paint for the bit of framing that isn't block or concrete. also dri one looks like another. i tried finding this video i found a few years back and i can't find it link, it had the recipe to make it at home from borax.

conduit the whole way? you know when the house got wired they snipped the run from the garage and trenched a new one. maybe if it had been a conduited the whole way, it would have saved some labor. maybe it would be wise to conduit the PV runs. i'm assuming it was about 500v to run that far?

 

[ThaiTaffy]

Typically when doing cable calcs they allow for 3% drop on voltage to size the cable so as long as the PV string is 3% above a good voltage your mppt will accept whatever cable calc gives you for that length is fine

 

[cdoublejj--]

Load side tap is what that sounds like



Mount them on the outside - They can be weather proof - the Eg4-18kpv certainly is. There are Eg4 wall mount batteries that are.


This is true if you use as high a voltage DC as is practical


Many people have a run of 150 or more for their PV wires - just takes larger conductors and running the higher voltage mentioned above. Just don't exceed the input voltage on your SCC by even a few volts for under a second or you chance releasing the magic smoke.


There can be only one unless had 2 meters from the same pole but not connected in any other way. What you have with ground rods at both places is asking for a ground loop and for a nearby lightning strike to let out all sorts of smoke.

BUT if both the garage and house are tied together electrically as in load side tap or wires up into the garage and down and over into the house then there should be one ground rod or a pair of ground rods at the garage, and ALL other grounding is tied only to them. Adding ground rods at the house is adding a ground loop and asking for wierd troubles.



yes, see above



It is in the Eg4 manual around page 36 or so. You are missing that the 18k they are taking about is capacity of the solar charge controller. The inverter itself will only put out around 50~60 amps per Eg4 when running on batteries. Most resdential runs on less than 120amps all the time. A 200amp service gives you the capacity to run a large AC, hot tub, water heater, and dryer all at once without dimming the lights. Most of those appliances take 30~50amps to start then quite a lot less after that.

thats a bad deal. by only grounding the garage your resistance to ground goes up. i'm going to have to look up ground loops. technically it's all one big circuit since it's all off one meter. honestly the house has been hit once before and it was the ancient ass wiring that went up in smoke. maybe because of a ground loop or lack of grounding all together. in that case the surge came through the meter from the pole. i think you're screwed either way but, i'll look up ground loops just be sure.

drone on:


FYI i'm really in to grounding and surge protection and engineer from Motorola showed me spec for data centers, which is as close to zero home for the ground to save the electronics, where codes is like 20ish ohm to not kill people during a lightening strike/surge. any how modern code actual mention more than two ground rods but, they have to be more than ten feet apart. lower ohm to ground gives your SPDs a better chance to actually work.

There is also distance and ground potential. ie you would not want to drive in a new ground rod and tie it just to the ground screw on the back of your APC office UPS, as it make attract more ...surge.... than the rest of the house/circuit since it's lower ohm to ground then the rest of the house/circuit.

take this with grain of salt, maybe ground loop theory will teach me something i didn't know.

EDIT: so it's setup as standard setup and to code so there shouldn't be any ground loops so long as the house/sub panels doesn't have the neutrals and ground bonded.

 

[robbob2112]

Skip the Motorola spec for grounding transmission antenna towers... interesting read but doesn't apply to home electrical wiring unless you spend the million dollars it takes to do it all.