diy solar

diy solar

First Post-Here's my initial plan. Rip it apart for me...

Based on my own experience and what I've read here I think the MPP LV6548 like I have is a pretty solid inverter. That said, they have their drawbacks like any other inverter. They're loud. And it takes two to deliver 240v. Also the PV input max is lower than many of the others. I think the newer MPPs are rated at something like 390v where many of the other Voltaic clones are 500v. That may or may not be a factor for you. Mine are older and are only 250v which is one of the reasons I'm going to upgrade. The EG4 version has had some issues which you can research on the forum ad nauseum. I have no experience with the others such as Sungold, but others here have. When I upgrade I'm looking at either two of the EG4 18kpv or two of the SolArk 15k. I still have some time to make that decision though.

By the way, today it dropped down to 70 at night and only 100 predicted for a high. My consumption has dropped by more than 10%. It's amazing how much more energy it takes to overcome an additional 5 to 7 degrees when it's this hot. I just wish it would stay this way. Supposed to be right back up there tomorrow. But hopefully some relief coming next week off the tropics.
If I remember right, the EG4 6.5k is supposed to be a copy of the LV6548's with a few upgrades according to one of Will's videos. He seemed to like it, but it has had some issues. Luckily, I'm not in any hurry to make these decisions, so maybe I won't screw it up too bad.

I live near Mason, Tx and we had a string of 109 degree days here that got a little rough. Yesterday, the high was a bone-chilling 97 degrees and today is only supposed to get to 100. It's nice to have a little relief from time to time. Athens, Tx is my hometown...I can't imagine living there anymore with the humidity magnifying the discomfort.
 
If I remember right, the EG4 6.5k is supposed to be a copy of the LV6548's with a few upgrades according to one of Will's videos. He seemed to like it, but it has had some issues. Luckily, I'm not in any hurry to make these decisions, so maybe I won't screw it up too bad.

I live near Mason, Tx and we had a string of 109 degree days here that got a little rough. Yesterday, the high was a bone-chilling 97 degrees and today is only supposed to get to 100. It's nice to have a little relief from time to time. Athens, Tx is my hometown...I can't imagine living there anymore with the humidity magnifying the discomfort.
Ah, you live out in the desert! Yeah, it's humid here but at least we have trees and grass! :ROFLMAO:

I know some folks out near Harper and I know it has been bad out that way. But y'all are kinda used to drought and heat. It's kicking our butts over here.
 
Here are my latest design thoughts. I'm wanting the system to be offgrid with grid assist during normal times. I'd rather not have to deal with the wires company or energy provider with any permitting. After the SHTF, I'd like it to be able to handle my household's daily needs by itself. I also love the idea of incorporating some redundancy and expandability. If an inverter goes down, I'd like to still be able to power the 240V loads we rely on. And, I'd like to put the batteries out in the shop which is enclosed, but not climate controlled. So, here is what I'm thinking of buying:

2 - EG4 6K Off-Grid Split Phase Inverters (each can put out 120V and 240V)
3 - EG4-LifePower4 Lithium Batteries (48V) OR 1 - EG4 PowerPro WallMount AllWeather Lithium Battery (48V) Would I need 2?
Mount 30 of my Jinko 400W, 49.8 (Voc) panels on the roof with S-5 brackets, 15 on each Inverter (3x5)

1692215700684.png

I'm thinking I can add inverters and/or batteries later if the need arises. If the SHTF, we'll probably be using less power anyway.

Does it sound like I'm on the right track here or are there still things I'm not considering that I should?
 
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Here are my latest design thoughts. I'm wanting the system to be offgrid with grid assist during normal times. I'd rather not have to deal with the wires company or energy provider with any permitting. After the SHTF, I'd like it to be able to handle my household's daily needs by itself. I also love the idea of incorporating some redundancy and expandability. If an inverter goes down, I'd like to still be able to power the 240V loads we rely on. And, I'd like to put the batteries out in the shop which is enclosed, but not climate controlled. So, here is what I'm thinking of buying:

2 - EG4 6K Off-Grid Split Phase Inverters (each can put our 120V and 240V)
3 - EG4-LifePower4 Lithium Batteries (48V) OR 1 - EG4 PowerPro WallMount AllWeather Lithium Battery (48V) Would I need 2?
Mount 30 of my Jinko 400W, 49.8 (Voc) panels on the roof with S-5 brackets, 15 on each Inverter (3x5)

View attachment 163087

I'm thinking I can add inverters and/or batteries later if the need arises. If the SHTF, we'll probably be using less power anyway.

Does it sound like I'm on the right track here or are there still things I'm not considering that I should?
Let me preface this with saying that anytime you get into a discussion about SHTF there are so many variables and possible scenarios that it gets crazy quickly. For the purposes of solar and your setup specifically, let's say you look at short term outages of a few days and long term outages of a few weeks or more. Hey, it's happened here so it could happen there too.

In either scenario you're going to be way under on batteries. That means either you need a generator as backup or be prepared to do without power some of the time. I'm not that familiar with the EG4 6000EX but there are several on here who are so maybe some of them will chime in. Looking at the specs the first thing that jumps out at me is that it only has one MPPT input. It does, however, allow up to 27a and 500v. You wouldn't want to do 5s3p unless you're willing to accept some clipping. But you could do 8s2p and end up with around 400v and 20-22a on each inverter. I didn't look up the panels but they should be around 10a. If you do 8s2p on one you could do 7s2p on the other and end up with 30 panels, or just buy two more panels and max it out. Even with the temp coefficient you should be well under the 500v limit. The 6500EX shows AC input per leg so I'm assuming it handles bypass to give you grid assist. Maybe someone can confirm that who uses it.

If you go with 30 panels total that's going to be a max production of 12kw but you won't get that often or for long I don't think. So figure 11kw to be conservative times whatever your sunlight hours are. In the winter you're probably looking at something like 4 or 5 hours max. That comes out to 48 to 60 kwh per day in winter at best. For real life numbers, I'm only getting about 10kw max production due to me configuring it improperly when I built it, but during the summer I'm making 80kwh so that's the equivalent of 8 hours of full production. If I can get that up to 14kw by upgrading my inverters and maybe adding a few more panels I should be good to go for summer needs.

Back to looking at your plan, it all depends on your expectations and your budget. IMO, no matter how you cut it having SOME solar is way better than having NO solar so I'd say figure out what you can afford and build it so you can easily expand it. Whether that means adding a generator or planning on more panels and batteries down the road, you'll have to figure that out. But those three Lifepower 4 or one PowerPro are going to last you maybe two hours in the summer once the sun sets, if you're lucky and conservative. I have twelve of the Lifepower 4 and when we're having those 105-107 days I would be coming up short if I didn't supplement with grid power.

Plus you need to allow for that fact that this stuff is addictive as hell and you'll probably be adding and upgrading your solar for the rest of your life once you get started. :ROFLMAO:

Edit: I think I confused your usage with one from another thread. Yours is a lot lower than the other person's. So the battery situation may not be quite as bad as I stated, but I think you'll find you're still going to be under powered on batteries with only 15kwh.
 
Let me preface this with saying that anytime you get into a discussion about SHTF there are so many variables and possible scenarios that it gets crazy quickly. For the purposes of solar and your setup specifically, let's say you look at short term outages of a few days and long term outages of a few weeks or more. Hey, it's happened here so it could happen there too.

In either scenario you're going to be way under on batteries. That means either you need a generator as backup or be prepared to do without power some of the time. I'm not that familiar with the EG4 6000EX but there are several on here who are so maybe some of them will chime in. Looking at the specs the first thing that jumps out at me is that it only has one MPPT input. It does, however, allow up to 27a and 500v. You wouldn't want to do 5s3p unless you're willing to accept some clipping. But you could do 8s2p and end up with around 400v and 20-22a on each inverter. I didn't look up the panels but they should be around 10a. If you do 8s2p on one you could do 7s2p on the other and end up with 30 panels, or just buy two more panels and max it out. Even with the temp coefficient you should be well under the 500v limit. The 6500EX shows AC input per leg so I'm assuming it handles bypass to give you grid assist. Maybe someone can confirm that who uses it.

If you go with 30 panels total that's going to be a max production of 12kw but you won't get that often or for long I don't think. So figure 11kw to be conservative times whatever your sunlight hours are. In the winter you're probably looking at something like 4 or 5 hours max. That comes out to 48 to 60 kwh per day in winter at best. For real life numbers, I'm only getting about 10kw max production due to me configuring it improperly when I built it, but during the summer I'm making 80kwh so that's the equivalent of 8 hours of full production. If I can get that up to 14kw by upgrading my inverters and maybe adding a few more panels I should be good to go for summer needs.

Back to looking at your plan, it all depends on your expectations and your budget. IMO, no matter how you cut it having SOME solar is way better than having NO solar so I'd say figure out what you can afford and build it so you can easily expand it. Whether that means adding a generator or planning on more panels and batteries down the road, you'll have to figure that out. But those three Lifepower 4 or one PowerPro are going to last you maybe two hours in the summer once the sun sets, if you're lucky and conservative. I have twelve of the Lifepower 4 and when we're having those 105-107 days I would be coming up short if I didn't supplement with grid power.

Plus you need to allow for that fact that this stuff is addictive as hell and you'll probably be adding and upgrading your solar for the rest of your life once you get started. :ROFLMAO:

Edit: I think I confused your usage with one from another thread. Yours is a lot lower than the other person's. So the battery situation may not be quite as bad as I stated, but I think you'll find you're still going to be under powered on batteries with only 15kwh.
Holy crap, great catch. I didn't even look at the amp rating for the PV input. I guess I'll have to go with the 8s2p option. I'll cogitate on it a while longer and see what other comments come in. You guys are fantastic.
 
Also the PV input max is lower than many of the others. I think the newer MPPs are rated at something like 390v where many of the other Voltaic clones are 500v. That may or may not be a factor for you. Mine are older and are only 250v which is one of the reasons I'm going to upgrade.
I saw this vid a while back, made me wonder about higher voltage PV and if it was going to be a good idea (or not) especially during Nov - Jan where I deal with low solar levels. Something to know and consider when making a choice of inverter.
 
I saw this vid a while back, made me wonder about higher voltage PV and if it was going to be a good idea (or not) especially during Nov - Jan where I deal with low solar levels. Something to know and consider when making a choice of inverter.
Yeah, that's a significant increase in idle consumption. Those wouldn't really benefit me anyway since I need something a little over 400v capacity if I reconfigure my panels to 8s instead of the current 4s2p. But for anyone looking at a new install the idle consumption should definitely be considered. Using the numbers from his video I come up with something like 5kwh daily just to run two of the inverters. So add one more kw of panels to cover consumption. I think there are better options. Too bad, because the LV6548s have been rock solid otherwise.
 
Off-grid with grid assist sounds VERY interesting. If fact, I was starting to think along those lines this morning and looking at 2-EG4 6.5k inverters with a EG4 PowerPro 14.3 kWh for starters. I don't care much about selling power back, but would love to have the grid available for backup. Thanks for the advice on mounting too. I guess I still have a lot more studying to do.
Both the schneider and Victron grid assist off grid seem to supplement generator output vs the generator supplementing the inverter ac output
I may be totally wrong in this, but wasn’t sure if this is something you’ve further explored?
 
When I upgrade I'm looking at either two of the EG4 18kpv or two of the SolArk 15k. I still have some time to make that decision though.
no love for dual eg4 8k or solark 12ks or just not enough improvement in capacity to make it worth?
 
no love for dual eg4 8k or solark 12ks or just not enough improvement in capacity to make it worth?
The only reason I didn't think more about the EG4 8k is that there were no reviews on the SS website. Maybe I should look for some customer feedback on Youtube or elsewhere. I haven't heard much about them. The cost kinda concerned me on the Sol-Ark.
 
The only reason I didn't think more about the EG4 8k is that there were no reviews on the SS website. Maybe I should look for some customer feedback on Youtube or elsewhere. I haven't heard much about them. The cost kinda concerned me on the Sol-Ark.
They have a lot of bad reviews, but it seems to also be mostly grid tie users. Wasn’t sure if those issues would be irrelevant off grid or not, and they just had a significant firmware update apparently as well.
I agree the solark is cost prohibitive
 
no love for dual eg4 8k or solark 12ks or just not enough improvement in capacity to make it worth?
The EG4 8K gets horrible reviews. The 12k might be an option but the 15k will carry most everything by itself with the second more for redundancy. Maybe crazy but I never claimed to be sane. Just damn good. :ROFLMAO:
 
Should I also be considering Growatt, Victron and others for a good inverter?
There are fans of most of the major brands, and people who trash them as well. There's no harm in researching those brands. Growatt, Victron, Schneider, Outback - the list is long. Be aware that many inverters are not AIO (all in one) so you'll need a separate charge controller at least for those. Not a bad thing - pros and cons either way. You mentioned you wanted to keep it simple so an AIO may be better in that regard.

I reread your original post. I don't know if anyone ever addressed the question of batteries needing to be climate controlled. The new EG4 PowerPro is rated for outside installation (not in direct sunlight) but keep in mind that it's brand new so there's no one with long term experience with those. The EG4 18kpv inverter is also rated for outside installation. Marcus from SS did a post with photos on his setup he's currently installing with everything outside. But typically you're going to want both batteries and inverter(s) in a climate controlled area. I put a mini-split on my garage and installed everything there. Obviously there are other ways, such as a separate "solar shed" with climate control.
 
IMNSHO, It's generally first about demand. You need enough inverter and battery output to meet your maximum demand. The second thing will be storage. The more battery you buy the longer you can last. 24KW is 240v/100A, basically a 100A panel. I used this as a baseline. If your demand never gets over 50A just cut everything in half. Fridges, freezers, lighting,, even toasters and blow-dryers are not going to cause you any major grief, toss an A/C or clothes dryer, or EV, or HWH, or electric range, in the mix you'll really need to be conscious of your demand peak. Keep in mind you need enough battery output capacity to match your peak demand. so for 24KW you need 480A@50v of battery output. Most of the 5KWH batteries will do 100A for a reasonable time, so your three batteries will get you 50A of peak 240vac.

I'd put a sensor on my mains and start tracking your usage and peak demands. Your average usage will determine how long you can operate on 15KWH of battery. On the panel side shoot for 4X your average KW use of your highest use day. This should give you enough at start to run your loads during sunshine, with the battery boosting for very high demand, and allow the batteries to charge pretty much completely before the sun goes down. Tweak it up a little if you get a lot of clouds or need to compensate for solar obstructions, panels are relatively cheap.

Whatever you buy for batteries you will want more. Make sure you have room for it. @EastTexCowboy is moaning about 105. Bwahahahah. It hit 114F again today, but I note it's the nite-time low that really eats the juice, forcing the HVAC to run all night knocking 93F down to 74F, so I can sleep. I'm back on the grid before 2300 on these really hot days. The other night it dipped to 85, I made it to 0100.

Most of all have some fun!

(Santa is going to get me more batteries)
 
So looking at the loads you noted in first posting, and some of the good comments so far:
9307kWh for 2022 = avg of 25.5kWh per day,
1525kWh for highest month (August) = 49kWh per day avg "peak" or at least an idea of what peak can be.

if you planned for 50kWh in 24 hours this is only 2080W continuous, but we don't typically use energy this way, we turn on the oven, start and stop well pumps, run a dryer, etc the peaks including start up in-rush loads will be far higher. It would be best to do an energy audit - use the spreadsheet from the resources section (by Filterguy) called the "System energy audit" and if your not sure about any of the input data just ask we-all will help ya.
Then use this data to narrow down what inverter size you likely need.

For the PV:
From the PVWatts site, using Dallas and a 1kW array set due south, at 30-degees tilt angle, I get (Feb as lowest) 104kWh/month, and (July & Aug) 146kWh/month as the best months.
This means using your numbers for Avg. 25.5/day x 30 =765kWh would need 765/104 = 7.4kW array for the average energy using Feb, (yeah Feb is ony 28 days, but we will ignore that).
At the other end of the scale, July/Aug you need 49kWh/day x 30 = 1470, 1470/146kWh collected per day per kW PV = 10kW PV array
My experience with PVWatts is that it is pretty darn accurate - your plan to go with a 12kW array will likely bring in the energy you need based on these numbers.

So the next step is knowing what ESS you will need, ie batteries. Since the sun only shines so long, knowing how much of the load is overnight will be important. If we assumed half the load overnight, say 25kWh that is five 100Ah 48v server racks, fully discharged. I have been following @EastTexCowboy for awhile and I know he already has two stacks of 6 servers, and I believe he said going to a third stack soon, 90kWh ESS system. An energy storage system this size comes at a price, so the suggestion about using grid instead of batteries may be less costly, at least to start out. Will depend on budget. Thinking about how many days in a row you may get little sunshine may lead you to pick the size of battery ESS you need.
Rules and regulations:
As noted, knowing local rules and regs will be important for knowing what backfeeding the grid will mean.
Generally roof mounted PV in a building you live in, will mean Rapid Shut Down, and Arc Fault Detection and shutdown - features that come at a price. This is why many people go with separate PV racks away from buildings, so you should look at your options and know the costs either way.
 
You guys are incredible. Just flooding me with good advice and issues to consider. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences and guide me me thru this. It's a little confusing at this stage and I keep finding out that I didn't realize how little I know...
 
You guys are incredible. Just flooding me with good advice and issues to consider. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences and guide me me thru this. It's a little confusing at this stage and I keep finding out that I didn't realize how little I know...
This sounds very familiar. It was a serious learning experience for me and continues to be. I reached a point where I thought I figured it out but like most things, the more you know the more you realize you don't know. You'll get there. You're already ahead of the curve from what I've seen.
 
Alright fellas, here's the latest revision of the plan:

Location- 76825 zip code, PBR-panel roof pitched 15 degrees to 94 degrees azimuth.
Inverter & Battery- EG4 PowerPro ESS | 14.3 kWh Capacity | EG4-18Kpv & EG4-PowerPro Wall Mount Battery | 9540 Pending
The inverter and battery will need to be installed in the workshop...dry, insulated and shaded, but not climate controlled.
Panel Mounting- Either S-5 backets or SolarStack adhesive mounts https://solarstack.com/

The building I'm talking about is a "barndominium". It is a 50' x 80' building, running north-south, that in includes a 1500 sq ft living area and 2500 sq ft of shop space. I have carports on the east and west sides and plan to mount the panels on the east carport so that any leaks won't be above the enclosed living area.

Panels- 27 Jinko JKM400M-72HL-V (already have 34 waiting in my shop)
I'm thinking I can add to this as needed.

1692472267565.png

1692472188077.png

I'm hoping this can get me started. Nothing but the panels have been bought yet, so it's not too late to change the plan. Any thoughts?
 
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Alright fellas, here's the latest revision of the plan:

Location- 76825 zip code, R-panel roof pitched 15 degrees to 94 degrees azimuth.
Inverter & Battery- EG4 PowerPro ESS | 14.3 kWh Capacity | EG4-18Kpv & EG4-PowerPro Wall Mount Battery | 9540 Pending
The inverter and battery will need to be installed in the workshop...dry and shaded, but not climate controlled.
Panel Mounting- Either S-5 backets or SolarStack adhesive mounts https://solarstack.com/

Panels- 27 Jinko JKM400M-72HL-V (already have 34 waiting in my shop)
I'm thinking I can add to this as needed.

View attachment 163514

View attachment 163513

I'm hoping this can get me started. Nothing but the panels have been bought yet, so it's not too late to change the plan. Any thoughts?
Certainly not a bad start. I'd double check with SS on the max voltage input for PV. This may have already been addressed in one of the many lengthy threads but their spec sheet says DC input voltage range is 100-600v but their MPP oerating voltage range is capped at 500v. I want to say James mentioned that it's safe up to the 600v but I'm not certain. If you run the numbers on your panels as 9s even at 10F you're going to be a little over 500v. I suspect you occasionally get that cold or colder.

It will definitely be interesting to see how well the inverter and batteries perform in the workshop. I know they are rated for outside temps so it shouldn't be a problem, but in our part of the world it can get pretty warm in a shop. Frankly, if this option had been around when I was looking I might have put mine in the shop as well. It's an insulated shop so that helps some. But I'm not moving everything now. Nope. Not a chance.

With this new plan I'm assuming you will be doing a separate critical loads panel? You may want to consider a transfer switch so you can switch everything back to grid if you need to do maintenance on your system or if something in the system fails. My thinking on that is that it's just equipment and all equipment fails eventually.

If you haven't already I'd recommend you draw out the rest of the system. Include the wiring diagram, grounding, fuses, DC breakers for PV, DC breakers for battery to inverter, emergency disconnects, and anything else you may have planned. Submit it here and the gang will review it. Speaking from experience it's easier and cheaper to get all that stuff right the first time around. I realize a lot of this is simplified by going with the EG4 18kpv and the PowerPro battery so that reduces the list somewhat.

Other stuff to consider - basic wiring and crimping tools, a decent clamp meter, MC4 connectors, PV rated wire for outside runs, conduit, grounding clips for the ground wire on the panel frames. If you don't already have a fire extinguisher in your shop maybe add one. I've also found my infrared thermometer gun to be very handy when checking temps on things. I'm sure some of the other folks here can make other suggestions. These are just what I came up with offhand.

Can hardly wait until you start your build! Take lots of pictures.
 
Save yourself the headache with the various EG4 products and go with the EG4 18k with 6 LifePower batteries. I live off grid in south Texas near Willis and I’m running 4 mini splits in a 1600sqft house no problem through the night with 6 batteries. Also, I put all of my solar on ground mounts using unistrut. Makes for servicing the system easy and you don’t have to worry about roof leaks.

Email signature solar for a new system design.
 
Certainly not a bad start. I'd double check with SS on the max voltage input for PV. This may have already been addressed in one of the many lengthy threads but their spec sheet says DC input voltage range is 100-600v but their MPP oerating voltage range is capped at 500v. I want to say James mentioned that it's safe up to the 600v but I'm not certain. If you run the numbers on your panels as 9s even at 10F you're going to be a little over 500v. I suspect you occasionally get that cold or colder.

It will definitely be interesting to see how well the inverter and batteries perform in the workshop. I know they are rated for outside temps so it shouldn't be a problem, but in our part of the world it can get pretty warm in a shop. Frankly, if this option had been around when I was looking I might have put mine in the shop as well. It's an insulated shop so that helps some. But I'm not moving everything now. Nope. Not a chance.

With this new plan I'm assuming you will be doing a separate critical loads panel? You may want to consider a transfer switch so you can switch everything back to grid if you need to do maintenance on your system or if something in the system fails. My thinking on that is that it's just equipment and all equipment fails eventually.

If you haven't already I'd recommend you draw out the rest of the system. Include the wiring diagram, grounding, fuses, DC breakers for PV, DC breakers for battery to inverter, emergency disconnects, and anything else you may have planned. Submit it here and the gang will review it. Speaking from experience it's easier and cheaper to get all that stuff right the first time around. I realize a lot of this is simplified by going with the EG4 18kpv and the PowerPro battery so that reduces the list somewhat.

Other stuff to consider - basic wiring and crimping tools, a decent clamp meter, MC4 connectors, PV rated wire for outside runs, conduit, grounding clips for the ground wire on the panel frames. If you don't already have a fire extinguisher in your shop maybe add one. I've also found my infrared thermometer gun to be very handy when checking temps on things. I'm sure some of the other folks here can make other suggestions. These are just what I came up with offhand.

Can hardly wait until you start your build! Take lots of pictures.
Great suggestions about double checking the DC input voltage, critical load panel and transfer switch. I'll get on that. Thanks again.
 
Save yourself the headache with the various EG4 products and go with the EG4 18k with 6 LifePower batteries. I live off grid in south Texas near Willis and I’m running 4 mini splits in a 1600sqft house no problem through the night with 6 batteries. Also, I put all of my solar on ground mounts using unistrut. Makes for servicing the system easy and you don’t have to worry about roof leaks.

Email signature solar for a new system design.
I would really rather go with the LifePower batteries, but was worried about them being out in a non-climate controlled workshop. The workshop is dry and shaded, but can be dusty and is not heated or air conditioned. What environment are yours in?
 

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