Inspection Expectations

[DThames]

What part of the state and who is the power company?

I live in Arkansas as well. I have a grid tied system that was put in in 2019, no inspection. Now (helping someone else) we need an inspection, but that is not unreasonable for grid tied. I also asked about adding more export because I am setting up a system for emergency power. My grid tie is micro-inverter. They guy said no because I was exporting more than I use already but then he wanted my wiring plan for their records. I just dropped the conversation at that point.

One option is to just leave the system off grid and plug your charger in with a cord if required.

 

[cgreen]

What part of the state and who is the power company?

I live in Arkansas as well. I have a grid tied system that was put in in 2019, no inspection. Now (helping someone else) we need an inspection, but that is not unreasonable for grid tied. I also asked about adding more export because I am setting up a system for emergency power. My grid tie is micro-inverter. They guy said no because I was exporting more than I use already but then he wanted my wiring plan for their records. I just dropped the conversation at that point.

One option is to just leave the system off grid and plug your charger in with a cord if required.

Good to meet a fellow Arkansan on here! Thanks for your input. I live in the far West Central part of the state. AVECC is my power company. When they discovered I had solar, the guy looked it over really well, took pictures, and then left me a notice to contact them. When I spoke with one of their Chief Engineers, he said they have never encountered anyone with solar who is NOT net metering and they really didn't know how to handle this. He assured me, during the power outage they had earlier that morning, my system was not back feeding.

He requested me to go ahead and fill out the paperwork, submit a diagram of how I am connected to the grid and for what purpose, and also asked for a copy of the inverter's manual. After providing all of that information, he then tells me that I need to complete the final couple of steps as if I were a net metering customer (an inspection and then AVECC will come out to test whether or not it is back feeding). I feel like they are just cover their bases for legalities.

I feel like at this point, I am kind of stuck with one of the following options...
1) Follow their rules and risk getting all these violations that have to be corrected in order to keep my system as is;
2) Disconnect my solar completely and go back to using the grid solely; or
3) Purchase more batteries (expensive) and just pull the plug completely on the grid and be truly "off grid".

 

[Quattrohead]

It sounds like they are reasonable people, I would continue to work with them.
You are right, they are covering their arses.

 

[Mattb4]

Good to meet a fellow Arkansan on here! Thanks for your input. I live in the far West Central part of the state. AVECC is my power company. When they discovered I had solar, the guy looked it over really well, took pictures, and then left me a notice to contact them. When I spoke with one of their Chief Engineers, he said they have never encountered anyone with solar who is NOT net metering and they really didn't know how to handle this. He assured me, during the power outage they had earlier that morning, my system was not back feeding.

He requested me to go ahead and fill out the paperwork, submit a diagram of how I am connected to the grid and for what purpose, and also asked for a copy of the inverter's manual. After providing all of that information, he then tells me that I need to complete the final couple of steps as if I were a net metering customer (an inspection and then AVECC will come out to test whether or not it is back feeding). I feel like they are just cover their bases for legalities.

I feel like at this point, I am kind of stuck with one of the following options...
1) Follow their rules and risk getting all these violations that have to be corrected in order to keep my system as is;
2) Disconnect my solar completely and go back to using the grid solely; or
3) Purchase more batteries (expensive) and just pull the plug completely on the grid and be truly "off grid".

Do you have any kind of date to comply? If not another option is 4) Ignore them. Sometimes everyone is happy once they state requirements for "the Record". BTW, I am also a fellow Arkansawyer.

Not surprising their engineer is unfamiliar with people that are not net metering and have solar power. No reason for them to meet. Tain't their problem unless they make it so as they seem to be doing in your case. Frankly they oughta just pound sand.

 

[cgreen]

Do you have any kind of date to comply? If not another option is 4) Ignore them. Sometimes everyone is happy once they state requirements for "the Record". BTW, I am also a fellow Arkansawyer.

Not surprising their engineer is unfamiliar with people that are not net metering and have solar power. No reason for them to meet. Tain't their problem unless they make it so as they seem to be doing in your case. Frankly they oughta just pound sand.

They haven't given me a timeline. They just asked that I keep my solar turned off until inspected and they have tested for back feeding. Great to meet another Arkansan! It's a great state, and a lot of out-of-staters are realizing that. hahaha

 

[Hedges]

Interlock so "generator" input can't backfeed through main breaker is good.

I still see potential issue with line-side tap.
1) Is a 60A line-side tap allowed? (could overload their utility drop.)
2) Can the inverter backfeed through the line-side tap, either because it is utility interactive and supposed to be zero-backfeed but malfunctions, or because it has a transfer relay which gets stuck? (lacking UL listing, can't presume it is designed to be safe.)

 

[cgreen]

Interlock so "generator" input can't backfeed through main breaker is good.

I still see potential issue with line-side tap.
1) Is a 60A line-side tap allowed? (could overload their utility drop.)
2) Can the inverter backfeed through the line-side tap, either because it is utility interactive and supposed to be zero-backfeed but malfunctions, or because it has a transfer relay which gets stuck? (lacking UL listing, can't presume it is designed to be safe.)

The only way to know is for the electric company to come out and test for backfeed. But they won't until it is inspected. The line side tap is going to a 60A subpanel breaker box.

 

[Hedges]

You may get away with line-side tap, but I think the application is one step ahead of the regulations.
"Just when you think you've made something completely foolproof, they come up with a better fool."

Here are instructions on using a line-side tap. It shows a DC to AC inverter.

https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2016/12/UL__LineSideBreaker.pdf

Note that the house can draw up to 100A, the PV inverter can deliver up to 60A, and utility meter will carry anything from 60A backfeed to 100A load. It will never carry more than 100A (except for the period of time until breaker trips.)

A comment I find on this forum aligns with my concern.
"A line side tap ... is usually not compatible with an islanding system."

Line Side Tap & Islanding - Solar Panels - Solar Panels Forum

Has anyone done a line side tap and also done islanding? I am thinking of down the road doing the Tesla powerwall. I am just curious what the looks like from a design perspective.

www.solarpaneltalk.com

Your house can draw 100A. Your hybrid inverter can draw 60A. The meter is now carrying 160A. The wire from utility down to your meter (at least the part in conduit to above your roof, where utility splices theirs) is probably 2 awg, and can't carry 160A.

For my system, I originally had a breaker in the main panel feeding GT PV inverters. Then I inserted battery inverter between them. Then I put in a backfed interlocked "generator" breaker. With that, I had to manually turn off the breaker feeding it when backfeeding. That had the house running off-grid, but not as a UPS.

Later I moved the feed to something resembling your line-side tap, giving me UPS type operation. Difference is, I have an additional main breaker right at the meter, before my main panel. That prevents me from overloading the utility drop. There is also a second breaker in the main panel, which prevents overloading the main panel (utility 200A + inverter 100A provides 300A, but 200A main breaker in panel limits it.)

 

[DThames]

Looking at your diagram, I don't like it, if I am the power company. If you are off grid except 60 amps....May I suggest.

1. Put a 60 amp to 100Amp outdoor rated breaker box or fused disconnect on the outside of the house, close to the meter. Wire this disconnect output back to feed your 60amp panel.
2. Have the power company pull the meter and turn off your transformer. In the meter base, remove the wiring to your 100a main breaker and line side tap. Run new conduit and wire (include ground wire) over to the disconnect (item #1). Call the lineman and have him turn it back on for you.

Now your 100a breaker box is in no way connected to the grid. All grid connections can be disconnected and locked from the outside. This setup would pass for a grid tie system. Also this would removed any doubt about your backfeed lockout on your 100a panel. Doing this work before any inspection will clean up your drawing/design to make it less of a concern. Work with the guy at the power company on the design that I suggested and get his take on it. He has been good to help me.

I just finish a similar switch at my sister's house. See attached image, we pulled the wire from the back of the meter base, where it went into the main breaker box and routed a new path along the wall to that new box on the left. It didn't need to be so far away but our entry point options forced us to that spot. So back in the house in a new place, we routed the service feed through a hybrid inverter and then to the main panel.

 

[Charleswgibbs]

If they stop being reasonable you could hide all your gear and hook your panels up to a portable power station. Tell them you gave up on the other system and went with something easier. Once they are satisfied go back to your main system and sell the power station.

Assuming you are positive it's impossible to backfeed.

 

[cgreen]

If they stop being reasonable you could hide all your gear and hook your panels up to a portable power station. Tell them you gave up on the other system and went with something easier. Once they are satisfied go back to your main system and sell the power station.

Assuming you are positive it's impossible to backfeed.

I'm having it inspected this week by an electrician recommended by the power company. If it doesn't pass and is going to be too much of a headache bringing it up to their specifications, I will invest in more batteries and disconnect from the grid completely. That is my ultimate long term goal anyway, but it may happen sooner now!

 

[Hedges]

The grid is the most reliable and cheapest backup generator. I don't think disconnecting would be a good idea.

Replacing hybrid inverter with GT PV (if net metering allowed) would be one way to get through an inspection.
Disconnecting line-side tap so hybrid inverter has no AC input would be another; then it is just a "generator" feeding breaker panel through a UL listed interlock.

I think a line-side tap, which can be installed on hot wires, might be a bigger hassle to disconnect.
I could imagine issues with loads on a line-side tap (overloads utility drop wires), but it is normal practice for GT PV.
So landing a GT PV inverter on it might be the thing to do.

Then, just wait until their tail lights disappear from view.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

How did they even know you have a diy system in your house to begin with?

All it takes is for them to see the solar panels. Then they want to have a look inside. Happened to me

 

[Cheap 4-life]

have the system inspected by a licensed master electrician,

As far as I know (atleast in my area) you can do your own electrical work on your own house. Yes it still has to pass inspection

 

[Cheap 4-life]

Then, just wait until their tail lights disappear from view

This is what I kinda had to do. I got a UL regular grid tie inverter. Installed it. They inspected. Gave me a solar meter on the house. Then I switched back to a zero export non UL grid tie inverters that use batteries to store my excess pv during the day to be used at night by the grid tie inverters . Now any small unavoidable backfeed (which is what made them visit me in the first place) from the non UL zero export inverters is fine because I’m supposed to be backfeeding now because they think I have a regular grid tie inverter.

I still have the UL grid tie inverter in its box. Only used for less than a month. If anyone wants to buy it, install it and “wait till the head lights disappear”.. $600+shipping

 

[Cheap 4-life]

Good to meet a fellow Arkansan on here! Thanks for your input. I live in the far West Central part of the state. AVECC is my power company. When they discovered I had solar, the guy looked it over really well, took pictures, and then left me a notice to contact them. When I spoke with one of their Chief Engineers, he said they have never encountered anyone with solar who is NOT net metering and they really didn't know how to handle this. He assured me, during the power outage they had earlier that morning, my system was not back feeding.

He requested me to go ahead and fill out the paperwork, submit a diagram of how I am connected to the grid and for what purpose, and also asked for a copy of the inverter's manual. After providing all of that information, he then tells me that I need to complete the final couple of steps as if I were a net metering customer (an inspection and then AVECC will come out to test whether or not it is back feeding). I feel like they are just cover their bases for legalities.

I feel like at this point, I am kind of stuck with one of the following options...
1) Follow their rules and risk getting all these violations that have to be corrected in order to keep my system as is;
2) Disconnect my solar completely and go back to using the grid solely; or
3) Purchase more batteries (expensive) and just pull the plug completely on the grid and be truly "off grid".

If your not backfeeding at all then I would tell them, to kick rocks.. if they want to inspect I’d say am I backfeeding and if so prove it.. anything after the meter is your business as long as your not backfeeding. My zero export grid tie inverters were backfeeding so I had to let them inspect..
You could simply disconnect the AC input from the grid and if your not backfeeding due to a UL listed manual interlock in the main panel, then you should pass inspection. Not saying you wouldn’t with the AC input connected

 

[Cheap 4-life]

Note that the house can draw up to 100A, the PV inverter can deliver up to 60A, and utility meter will carry anything from 60A backfeed to 100A load. It will never carry more than 100A (except for the period of time until breaker trips.)

Wouldn’t his interlock in the main panel prevent any power from going into/thru the inverter via the 60amp panel? Meaning 60amps could never be pulled from the grid at the same time as the house is drawing 100amps? Also if the inverter was supplying however much power to the main panel then as long as that main panel can handle the inverters output and the potential 60amp pass thru then everything should be fine.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

Looking at your diagram, I don't like it, if I am the power company. If you are off grid except 60 amps....May I suggest.

1. Put a 60 amp to 100Amp outdoor rated breaker box or fused disconnect on the outside of the house, close to the meter. Wire this disconnect output back to feed your 60amp panel.
2. Have the power company pull the meter and turn off your transformer. In the meter base, remove the wiring to your 100a main breaker and line side tap. Run new conduit and wire (include ground wire) over to the disconnect (item #1). Call the lineman and have him turn it back on for you.

Now your 100a breaker box is in no way connected to the grid. All grid connections can be disconnected and locked from the outside. This setup would pass for a grid tie system. Also this would removed any doubt about your backfeed lockout on your 100a panel. Doing this work before any inspection will clean up your drawing/design to make it less of a concern. Work with the guy at the power company on the design that I suggested and get his take on it. He has been good to help me.

I just finish a similar switch at my sister's house. See attached image, we pulled the wire from the back of the meter base, where it went into the main breaker box and routed a new path along the wall to that new box on the left. It didn't need to be so far away but our entry point options forced us to that spot. So back in the house in a new place, we routed the service feed through a hybrid inverter and then to the main panel.

This would be fine as long as the inverter he is using can pass thru all the power the home needs to operate on a daily basis.

 

[robby]

The grid is the most reliable and cheapest backup generator. I don't think disconnecting would be a good idea.

Replacing hybrid inverter with GT PV (if net metering allowed) would be one way to get through an inspection.
Disconnecting line-side tap so hybrid inverter has no AC input would be another; then it is just a "generator" feeding breaker panel through a UL listed interlock.

I think a line-side tap, which can be installed on hot wires, might be a bigger hassle to disconnect.
I could imagine issues with loads on a line-side tap (overloads utility drop wires), but it is normal practice for GT PV.
So landing a GT PV inverter on it might be the thing to do.

Then, just wait until their tail lights disappear from view.

Now I am going to go over the Top because of an incident that happened just last week to one of my Wife's staff members.
The Story started the same as yours. After telling the Power Co to pound sand he had 6 years of problematic time off grid with numerous upgrades and additions to finally make it work.

As of last week he is now looking for a house to rent because his home of 15 years just went up in flames.
The Fire Dept zoomed in on his Inverter like a fly to honey and within hours declared one of his LFP batteries as the source of the fire.
The insurance company is already signaling that they need documentation on who signed off on his Solar Installation.
Long story, that I cannot talk about it in more detail or show pictures just yet because this is on going.

So for the love of God just follow Hedges advice before you start going down a road that is full of pitfalls.
Once you decide to play Hard Ball and go tell them to pound Sand you better be ready to deal with all the expenses and problems required to go completely off grid. You should also contact your insurance company and find out what they require.

If all of this sounds like a problem then just setup the system like it's a Generator

 

[Cheap 4-life]

Now I am going to go over the Top because of an incident that happened just last week to one of my Wife's staff members.
The Story started the same as yours. After telling the Power Co to pound sand he had 6 years of problematic time off grid with numerous upgrades and additions to finally make it work.

As of last week he is now looking for a house to rent because his home of 15 years just went up in flames.
The Fire Dept zoomed in on his Inverter like a fly to honey and within hours declared one of his LFP batteries as the source of the fire.
The insurance company is already signaling that they need documentation on who signed off on his Solar Installation.
Long story, that I cannot talk about it in more detail or show pictures just yet because this is on going.

So for the love of God just follow Hedges advice before you start going down a road that is full of pitfalls.
Once you decide to play Hard Ball and go tell them to pound Sand you better be ready to deal with all the expenses and problems required to go completely off grid. You should also contact your insurance company and find out what they require.

If all of this sounds like a problem then just setup the system like it's a Generator

I thought an offgrid system can’t really be “signed off” anyways.. A local inspector in my area for example has no idea what he’s even looking at regarding anything Solar. Any battery could catch fire at any time in a home. There’s many many batteries in a home.. Going completely offgrid is a challenge with a lot of expense but if he only has/wants a 100amp service then it’s not a huge undertaking.. However checking with the insurance company is solid advice..