Suijkerbuijk
I cannot be held responsible for this information.
Not all refrigerator use a pump
Some use Absorption systeem.
And are still beult today .
Is 13.3 Volts or 13.6 Volts the defacto voltage after charging and then immediately loaded LiFePO4 battery (12.8 V 280 AH)
- Thread starter tsuru
- Start date
Some use Absorption systeem.
And are still beult today .
You are correct though I could argue that absorption based refrigeration is still a pump. Just not mechanical.
Suijkerbuijk
I cannot be held responsible for this information.
Yes but it works with heat and cooling.
Means it nature way and thare is no big pull on the systeem.
Most use 10/15 ampère and will not have spike pull like a compressor model
That is the reason those systeem can work on lpg or propaan .
Than it do not use electric power .
TomC4306
Solar Obsessive
Ok, fine and dandy.
BUT... Are these two refrigerators absorption type?
Let's find that out before having a big long discussion about absorption refrigerators, eh.
To OP...
You are trying to run A LOT of stuff on a single 12 volt battery.
tsuru
New Member
Thought I would update my information so it can be used in assisting me in my questions:
Will try to state this more clearly again:
This is what I have on the system:
1 Internet Router ~ 20 watts at most ever under any condition
1 Computer system ~ 90 watts on standby at night or at most ~180 watts in use
1 Refrigerator that may come on during the night ~110 Watts (may or may not come on during the night when no solar cell input)
1 Refrigerator that may come on during the night ~ 120 Watts (may or may not come on during the night when no solar cell input)
1 TV system / DVR / etc that is off but on standby ~ 30 Watts and at most ~100 watts when watching TV
That is all. So really only if both fridges come on at the same time during the night for lets say 1 hour (?) it would pull total of 230 Watts while running during the night, but then drops off quite a bit after fridges power back off.
House is cool at night too, so they are not subjected to 100+ temps all night long whatsoever.
And I really think estimating 180 watts for the Computer is really high if under use. Maybe as low as 50 Watts standby
Can someone look at this please and tell me is there a reason that I would have to put the charger on the battery EVERY night ?
And if someone really thinks I need another battery, this disturbs me a bit, as when I first built this system about two months ago now, we ran it for several days (about 7-10) without every doing ANYTHING. Never charged the battery, did absolutely nothing, so adding batteries might be a good idea, but WHY? Please tell me why I need to put out another $500+ on another battery, Please?
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tsuru
New Member
I'm not sure if I don't understand. I have a Refrigerator, the thing you put milk or ice cream in and hope to keep if cold and fresh. Nothing more, just two simple refrigerators I have in my home, I assume many people put in their homes, so that when you come home from the grocery store that you can put the 'cold' items in to so they will keep cold and fresh.
I don't know anything about 'absorption' anything. So can't figure out what it is you are telling me.
In 74 years on this planet, just have used refrigerators and if there is some 'absorption' device have never went to the store and bought one of those, just bought a refrigerator for my home for my cold food. I think everyone I know has done the same, all during the 74 years here. Don't know nor have ever heard of buying an 'absorption' machine or the such and don't know anyone that has such a thing.
tsuru
New Member
And I'd like to add. The WHOLE reason I came on this site and asked my initial question was to find out if anyone can help me why my system, just installed less than two months ago so brand new, ran for the first week to ten days (with all the same items on the load) and I never even thought nor used a battery charger and it all ran off the solar panels. NOTHING else changed. The same summer sunny days nearly every single day have been the same also. Then I'm seeing my battery voltage so low one night that I began charging the battery every night, and seem to have to charge every night, to keep it all from cutting off completely (Inverter losing enough voltage to keep running and just turn off). Seems so odd when there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for this to completely change like that! What went wrong? I don't know if any 'absorption' thing has anything whatsoever to do with why this changed. Maybe I am just not getting this absorption thing or something?
The problem is something did change. The fact it worked for the first week could have just been that the amount of charge your battery was getting kept it from being discharged but never was enough to fully charge it back up. Think of it like a 100 gallon tank of water. Every day you use 20 gallons of water and you put back in 10 gallons. Things are great you have water but after 10 days you go to get water form your tank and it is empty.
That is why I asked about the loads. Unfortunately just listing the items and how much watts they draw does not tell me much because they need to be measured for a day to see what they really are. A battery has a rating for voltage and amp-hour. Multiply them together to get watt-hour. For instance a 20 watt light bulb if you run it 3 hours will consume 60wh.
playitagainsam
New Member
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2022
- Messages
- 6
Thanks for that pic of your system layout. It helps for troubleshooting.
Just for our review: Your original problem is the inverter shuts down in the night due to low voltage, correct?
It's possible you have a bad connection somewhere, causing a voltage drop under load, which causes the inverter to shut down.
Here's what I see and suspect happened:
1. The cables from your battery to inverter do not appear to be large enough to support 3000 Watts, probably not even 1000 watts. 3000/13.3Vdc=225 AMPS!
What gauge are they? Also, are you sure your wire is copper, not copper-clad Aluminum? Do your wires or connections ever get hot?
The surge current from 2 refrigerators turning on may have got a connection hot enough to cause a problem, like creating a bad contact. Check all connections on the buss bars, fuse, and all terminals. Everything worked for a while - until maybe something overheated.
If unsure about your wiring, test it. Get some big Copper wire, (like 2 ga. welding cable) and go straight from the inverter to the battery, and see if you still have the problem.
If you still have low voltage shutdown, then it's a battery internal problem.
Just for our review: Your original problem is the inverter shuts down in the night due to low voltage, correct?
It's possible you have a bad connection somewhere, causing a voltage drop under load, which causes the inverter to shut down.
Here's what I see and suspect happened:
1. The cables from your battery to inverter do not appear to be large enough to support 3000 Watts, probably not even 1000 watts. 3000/13.3Vdc=225 AMPS!
What gauge are they? Also, are you sure your wire is copper, not copper-clad Aluminum? Do your wires or connections ever get hot?
The surge current from 2 refrigerators turning on may have got a connection hot enough to cause a problem, like creating a bad contact. Check all connections on the buss bars, fuse, and all terminals. Everything worked for a while - until maybe something overheated.
If unsure about your wiring, test it. Get some big Copper wire, (like 2 ga. welding cable) and go straight from the inverter to the battery, and see if you still have the problem.
If you still have low voltage shutdown, then it's a battery internal problem.
tsuru
New Member
And what suggestion would be a good battery? I'm thinking of adding a 300 AH battery to add to my 12.8 V 280 AH battery. If you have some ideas could you also say why you would suggest a particular one? There seem to be a gazillion out there and prices in the mid $400's all the way up to $1700 !!
Thanks
Thanks
Suijkerbuijk
I cannot be held responsible for this information.
I see to small cable.
I see a stupid breaker/fuse on it
And that will dip the volt of the inverter
Cable its made from what materia ?
Copper or aluminium.
Is that inverter program for lifepo4?
If not its than standart lead battery program.
And than it will shutof on 9/10 volts drop point.
That is lower than the bms shutdown.
For the rest again .
If no charge from solar or charger its normal that the volt with a inverter is 13.3/13.5 volt . (Load)
Your mppt what is the float volts ?
That have to be 13.8 volt to charge the battery with a inverter that is connect on the battery with load.
Understand that breaker/fuse you use become hot .
Hot means volt drops.
Aluminium cable to small mean volt drop
And all of thare is a big load or load that is 24/7 on it.
I see a stupid breaker/fuse on it
And that will dip the volt of the inverter
Cable its made from what materia ?
Copper or aluminium.
Is that inverter program for lifepo4?
If not its than standart lead battery program.
And than it will shutof on 9/10 volts drop point.
That is lower than the bms shutdown.
For the rest again .
If no charge from solar or charger its normal that the volt with a inverter is 13.3/13.5 volt . (Load)
Your mppt what is the float volts ?
That have to be 13.8 volt to charge the battery with a inverter that is connect on the battery with load.
Understand that breaker/fuse you use become hot .
Hot means volt drops.
Aluminium cable to small mean volt drop
And all of thare is a big load or load that is 24/7 on it.
mikefitz
Solar Wizard
- Joined
- May 28, 2020
- Messages
- 3,219
Thanks for the image Mike. Strange connection pattern but based on it the photo the OP posted is OK.
Although already mentioned in this Thread it does not hurt to mention again the possibility exists that the battery is faulty.
Although already mentioned in this Thread it does not hurt to mention again the possibility exists that the battery is faulty.
I can't give any direct recommendation on a brand as I built my batteries myself by ordering cells and BMS separate.
Most reported issues seem to be cells not balanced and a general obsession to charge at the max 14.60 volts that is completely unnecessary.
Get the options you need/want and the battery is probably fine. Options include self heating and phone app to read the BMS status.
Post the top three you are considering and get opinions. With most things try not to just shop by price.
tsuru
New Member
Didn't respond to your question about load so here is my setup:
Everything is on, everything below is connected to the 3,000 Watt Inverter, all brand new build and equipment, cool house, not hot at night, and solar panels getting near full sun each and every day:
1 Internet Router ~ 20 watts at most ever under any condition
1 Computer system ~ 90 watts on standby at night or at most ~180 watts in use
1 Refrigerator that may come on during the night ~110 Watts (may or may not come on during the night when no solar cell input)
1 Refrigerator that may come on during the night ~ 120 Watts (may or may not come on during the night when no solar cell input)
1 TV system / DVR / etc that is off but on standby ~ 30 Watts and at most ~100 watts when watching TV
BougeRV 200 Watt Solar Panels (four each, wired in Parallel) - BRAND NEW
BougeRV 60 Amp MPPT Controller - BRAND NEW
BougeRV 3,000 Watt Inverter - BRAND NEW
ECO-WORTHY 12.8 V 280 AH LiFePO4 Battery - BRAND NEW
Physical Layout of Equipment attached (although there is an additional 3,000 Watt Inverter in the photo not currently attached)
Hope this is clearer of my setup.
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BRAND NEW or not you don't have enough solar. I'll round the numbers but computer=2.2kW, fridge x2=2kW, other devices=1kW. So you need to generate over 5kW just to break even. Add in efficiency losses and over 6kW a day. Your 4x200W panels need to produce full power for over 7hrs each day. Never going to happen. Your mppt charge controller may tell you what the daily production is?
First thing I would do to solve your problem 100% is to get a shunt.
Victron is the best but its over $100.
I know you hate renogy but I have one of their shunts and victron shunts also.
The victron is DEAD accurate but it doesn't have a display on the model I use so its not as handy as the renogy one.
These are shunts I'm referring to :
Renogy
$90
Victron
$100 on sale right now - great deal !
Anyways the the renogy display is on the back of my work bench and each time I enter the shop I can instantly know how many ah are left in my 12v battery bank. Also it shows me hours and minutes remaining at the current draw ( A MUST for solving problems like your having instantly ).
The victron does the same thing but you have to fire up the phone app to see what it is seeing.
The display on the renogy is handiest for my 12v stuff. My 48v house stuff I only use the victron shunt on.
Ok now armed with one of these you will know pretty fast :
1: if your battery is performing correctly for charging and capacity.
2: exactly how much your equipment is really pulling.
3: how long you should be able to run with your current loads. (major piece of the puzzle)
A shunt is honestly a must have especially with lifepo4's since its almost impossible to know the real state of charge by voltage alone when under load.
Victron is the best but its over $100.
I know you hate renogy but I have one of their shunts and victron shunts also.
The victron is DEAD accurate but it doesn't have a display on the model I use so its not as handy as the renogy one.
These are shunts I'm referring to :
Renogy
$90
Victron
$100 on sale right now - great deal !
Anyways the the renogy display is on the back of my work bench and each time I enter the shop I can instantly know how many ah are left in my 12v battery bank. Also it shows me hours and minutes remaining at the current draw ( A MUST for solving problems like your having instantly ).
The victron does the same thing but you have to fire up the phone app to see what it is seeing.
The display on the renogy is handiest for my 12v stuff. My 48v house stuff I only use the victron shunt on.
Ok now armed with one of these you will know pretty fast :
1: if your battery is performing correctly for charging and capacity.
2: exactly how much your equipment is really pulling.
3: how long you should be able to run with your current loads. (major piece of the puzzle)
A shunt is honestly a must have especially with lifepo4's since its almost impossible to know the real state of charge by voltage alone when under load.
Suijkerbuijk
I cannot be held responsible for this information.
1x internet router use 20 watts
20w:12v= 1.6a +15% lost inverter and adapter =1.9a x10hour = 19Ah use .
Pc 90watt standby use (is not but you tell me)
90watt :12v = 7.5a + 20% lost invester and psu= 9a.
9ax10hour = 90ah .
Fridge use 120watts. (Use 2x to fridge)
120watts :60min = 2 watt a min x 10 min runtime a hour (yes its Cools so it Run) 20watt use .
20watt : 12 v+10% inverter lost =1.8a
1.8a x10 hour run = 18ah.
On this moment u use for 10 hours .
18ah fridge
18ah fridge 2
90ah pc
19ah router
145ah on 10 hours .
That is wat u use only this stuf on the night.
Or if you like you solar need to charger 145Ah on a day just to keep your stuff running.
Wel normal a pc is not 90 watts standby .
More like 15/20 watts .
Gpu go in safe mode and that is about 5/10watts.
A cpu go in save mode and its about 5/10 watts .
A motherbourd of a pc use only 25 watts to Run full but in save mode just 2/5 watt max
So really that pc running in standby is normal just
20 watts so about 19Ah like your router.
So really you only pull normal.
74Ah in 10 hours.
That looks more normal or you can not even charge your battery and running your Setup.
20w:12v= 1.6a +15% lost inverter and adapter =1.9a x10hour = 19Ah use .
Pc 90watt standby use (is not but you tell me)
90watt :12v = 7.5a + 20% lost invester and psu= 9a.
9ax10hour = 90ah .
Fridge use 120watts. (Use 2x to fridge)
120watts :60min = 2 watt a min x 10 min runtime a hour (yes its Cools so it Run) 20watt use .
20watt : 12 v+10% inverter lost =1.8a
1.8a x10 hour run = 18ah.
On this moment u use for 10 hours .
18ah fridge
18ah fridge 2
90ah pc
19ah router
145ah on 10 hours .
That is wat u use only this stuf on the night.
Or if you like you solar need to charger 145Ah on a day just to keep your stuff running.
Wel normal a pc is not 90 watts standby .
More like 15/20 watts .
Gpu go in safe mode and that is about 5/10watts.
A cpu go in save mode and its about 5/10 watts .
A motherbourd of a pc use only 25 watts to Run full but in save mode just 2/5 watt max
So really that pc running in standby is normal just
20 watts so about 19Ah like your router.
So really you only pull normal.
74Ah in 10 hours.
That looks more normal or you can not even charge your battery and running your Setup.
Yes I know you posted it before. I would suggest removing the battery from the setup and putting a charger on it for at least a day (even if it indicates charged keep it going for the whole 24 hours). Report back with the resting voltage of the battery after a few hours of off charge and not connected to anything (taken with a DMM that you should have).
tsuru
New Member
A refrigerator, the same thing probably most homes on the planet have (less I suppose homes in the middle of Africa).
tsuru
New Member
Only cutting open the battery (Eco-Worthy 12.8 V 280 AH) to get to the BMS would allow me to measure anything.
And, well am definitely not ever going to 'decrease loads' as that is WHY I went solar, to run stuff in my home and not pay the electric company. So that's out. I assumed, never doing anything solar in my life, that the 800 watts of solar panels with my batteries (only have one now but trying to decide on which new battery to purchase to add to my existing battery) could handle a TV, Computer, Router, and 2 Fridges. I do have a Washer / Dryer (both 115 VAC) but run those every few days and only during the peak sun, solar power watts, in the day. And of course, the fridges only come on at times, not fully running every minute! And my TV (which I may watch an hour on some nights only) and Computer, which I spend maybe a couple hours / day otherwise in sleep mode, shouldn't I think need many solar panels more or many more batteries - if so, if so, then I've (and frankly all of you out there) spent thousands of dollars on all this solar stuff to get nearly nothing out of it unless you live 80 years to finally pay it off, yet even that things will die and break so you will be paying more for that every several years!!
That seems like the biggest snafu of all times and the joke would be on us - and the solar parts manufacturers are making a killing screwing every last one of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So I have to try to read your mind a bit here, do I need to add more solar panels? Another battery? Or both? Or??????????
tsuru
New Member
And
And I know that I may sound facetious, but I truly do wonder about all this. My INITIAL question to this entire problem is that why did everything run for over a week, out of the box brand new everything, never needing to do any charging, yet now I have to run a charger every single night just to keep the inverter from powering off from lack of voltage in the middle of the night!!!! And the sunny all days haven't changed (although today we actually have some marine layer and clouds - unusual). You see, all these questions about a refrigerator, or anything else I have, are simple common everyday every home things! And they just didn't evolve into something else between week one and now afterward. There is nothing I can figure out that answers this and why I'm asking all you experts.
Suijkerbuijk
I cannot be held responsible for this information.
Only if you know your load on a day .
Than you can calculate.
I have set one for you on the information you have set
But you do not respond on it .
And now you talk about a wash machine and more.
Sorry but that cost a lot of energy.
Special the heat systeem of a wash machine.
Even if you run it 2x time a week .
Than you can calculate.
I have set one for you on the information you have set
But you do not respond on it .
And now you talk about a wash machine and more.
Sorry but that cost a lot of energy.
Special the heat systeem of a wash machine.
Even if you run it 2x time a week .
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