Just upgraded to Lithium, battery dies often, what is my solar system missing?

[HoneyTrek]

PREVIOUS SET-UP in our RV:
3 * 100Watt 12V Flexible Monocrystalline Solar Panels from Windy Nation (installed 2017)
VertaMax 1500Watt 12V
WindyNation P30L 30A PWM Charge Controller
200ah Lead Acid Battery

CURRENT SET-UP in our RV:
the same tech as above didn't change a thing...
12V 300Ah - RELiON RB300-LT LiFePO4 Cold Weather Battery

The new LiFePO battery worked decently for a year now...but recently, the battery has started to flake, sometimes reads 0.00 on the multi-meter (5 minutes after reading 70% on the charge controller), and the lights won't work in our rig, then randomly turns back on and will work fine for days in a row before reading completely dead and needing to be jumped by a strangers car battery.

I tested the power wire coming from the engine (while driving on a long trip, so the truck battery was definitely full and the alternator should have been sending juice back), and it read 0.00 on the multi-meter, so I am not sure juice is coming off the engine. FYI: I unplugged the wire (the one coming from the alternator) from the battery to test it...so maybe it needs to be plugged in to open up the solenoid to send juice back to the house section of our RV?

I met a solar install guy, and he recommended two things for my system. Before I spend a small fortune on both of these, wanted to see what you guys think, if these are the best options, and if there is anything else I should add to my system:

Victron Energy SmartShunt 500 amp Battery Monitor (Bluetooth)
Victron Energy BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor (Black)
Victron Energy Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-Volt 30 amp 360-Watt DC-DC Charger Non-Isolated (Bluetooth)

Thanks for any insights before we make those two big purchases!
Mike & Anne
@HoneyTrek

 

[12vDC]

i’m helping somebody out with the same situation as you. They had two AGM batteries that I swapped out with two lithium batteries. With a full-time fridge and other light usage he was much happier with the new batteries however, because he couldn’t monitor the actual power in and out he thought by seeing the voltage coming off the panel that he was getting a sufficient charge but actually he was not.

Day for day, he was getting less and less charge in this winter solstice versus even two months ago, and the battery performance was suffering. And one night the system went dead with low-voltage shut down.

I had been recommending to him the same components as your friend and he is hesitant as well due to the price tag. you have to pay to play. You obviously don’t need to buy those specific components but you really should have something, and Victron is an industry staple.

Regarding charge not coming off your starter battery you should check your solenoid isolator. They go bad. All the time. Do a search on YouTube for the topic and you’ll see a bunch of RV vids with people replacing their solenoids.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

A voltage-based SoC meter is completely unreliable ESPECIALLY for LFP. It should be ignored.

Without a smartshunt or BMV-712 or similar battery monitor, you can't know your battery SoC reliably.

300W of solar is pretty limiting. It determines how much energy you can use daily. If you use more than that, it will eat into your battery capacity until it eventually dies.

A PWM controller also means you can never get more than about 70-80% of that wattage out of your panels even in perfect conditions.

Not sure what you mean about the alternator. If you were direct charging your LFP battery with the alternator, that can result in a burned up alternator because LFP batteries can draw more current for longer periods of time vs. lead acid. If you have something that joins the two systems together to charge them, it's possible that system has failed. I've had this happen in a traditional RV BIRD system where the solenoid failed.

A DC-DC charger is a safer option.

I would also replace the PWM controller with a MPPT.

 

[rodrick]

You are most likely not getting the battery fully charged and until you get a accurate battery state of charge you can’t know for sure, that is why he recommended what he did and he’s giving you good advice
Your going to get some good equipment that will serve you well for many years and can help in troubleshooting, with the shunt you can see in real time if anything is charging and your battery status just looking at your phone

 

[LakeHouse]

A voltage-based SoC meter is completely unreliable ESPECIALLY for LFP. It should be ignored.

Without a smartshunt or BMV-712 or similar battery monitor, you can't know your battery SoC reliably.

300W of solar is pretty limiting. It determines how much energy you can use daily. If you use more than that, it will eat into your battery capacity until it eventually dies.

A PWM controller also means you can never get more than about 70-80% of that wattage out of your panels even in perfect conditions.

Not sure what you mean about the alternator. If you were direct charging your LFP battery with the alternator, that can result in a burned up alternator because LFP batteries can draw more current for longer periods of time vs. lead acid. If you have something that joins the two systems together to charge them, it's possible that system has failed. I've had this happen in a traditional RV BIRD system where the solenoid failed.

A DC-DC charger is a safer option.

I would also replace the PWM controller with a MPPT.

Yes to all of these things.
And just to put some numbers in perspective... The 30A DC-DC charger would take 10 hours (300Ah /30A = 10h) to fully charge that battery from nothing, and your solar would take approximately forever.
But if you're getting 5 hours worth of production a day (this might be a big stretch with flex panels mounted on an RV), derated by 80% for the PWM controller, you might make something like 300W * 5h * 0.80 = 1200Wh per day. Your battery holds 300Ah * 12.8V = 3840Wh, so if you had exactly zero load, you could charge your battery in 3840Wh / 1200Wh/day = 3.2 days.

You might need more solar.

 

[Partimewages]

What rig do you have?
You said car, is this really a car?

 

[HoneyTrek]

WOW, thanks for all the replies guys. amazing, and welcomed advice! A few questions in reply:

@12vDC - If i went with a Victron Energy Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-Volt DC-DC Charger Non-Isolated - would I remove that solenoid, and just run the power wire straight back to this new DC-DC charger? Maybe with a big fuse where the solenoid is currently sitting in my engine bay? If so, can you link me to a waterproof fuse I should install there? And what amps should that fuse be at?

@sunshine_eggo - Sorry, I misspoke, mine is an MPPT Charge Controler, this one. Do you think I can keep rolling with this one? Or will an upgrade squeeze more power out of my meager solar array?

@LakeHouse - thanks for the math. I get totally confused with watts vs. what hours vs. amps vs. volts...your explanation was great.

DC-DC question/comparison:
Victron Energy Orion-Tr IP43 24/12-Volt 20 amp 240-Watt DC-DC Converter, Non-Isolated - Should I get one that's Isolated? or Non-Isolated for my situation? At $44, this one is nearly $200 cheaper...hmmmm...
vs.
Victron Energy Orion-Tr IP43 48/12-Volt 30 amp 360-Watt Isolated DC-DC Converter - $212. 10 amps more on charging will lead to faster charging while driving...is this one $180 more because it's isolated? do I need it to be?
vs.
Victron Energy Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-Volt 30 amp 360-Watt DC-DC Charger Non-Isolated - $226 non-isolated, and 12/12 as opposed to 48/12 or 24/12. Do I need it to be 12/12? or does the $44 option above work for me?

Does anyone recommend a different model with 30-60 amp charge capabilities?

SHUNT question:
Is this Fusion Energy, TBD-SmartShunt 500 amp Battery Monitor or this WonVon Battery Monitor with Shunt 400A 0V-120V Battery Monitor (which comes with a nice screen + temp monitor, and $100 cheaper) a horrible move? Or just "not quite as good" as the Victron? Just thinking since this is just a monitoring device it might be a decent place to cut some costs. Thoughts?

 

[HoneyTrek]

What rig do you have?
You said car, is this really a car?

Sorry. It's a 1985 Toyota Sunrader. Basically a 1-ton Toyota Pickup Truck, with a camper shell built onto the back (permanently). Here's a blog we posted about our camper, if you want to see photos and check out our 6-year road trip around North America.

 

[Partimewages]

Sorry. It's a 1985 Toyota Sunrader. Basically a 1-ton Toyota Pickup Truck, with a camper shell built onto the back (permanently). Here's a blog we posted about our camper, if you want to see photos and check out our 6-year road trip around North America.

Charging from the alternator might be worth the expense depending on how many hours a day you drive.

 

[12vDC]

If you had just a small set up that you use occasionally, I would say you would be OK with just about any brand DCDC charger and shunt/monitor. But if you’re depending on your system day in and day out, then I would definitely recommend going with all Victron energy components.

Victron are reliable, and the components mostly all play well together with some caveats. The phone app is very useful and all of your Victron components will be displayed on the same screen, and when you network them together within the app they talk to each other.

We might be doing you a favor for wisdom and experience to say, go ahead and get the cheap stuff. You’ll eventually find out the old adage, “buy once, cry once” with regard to getting what you pay for.

Regarding the Victron, DCDC charger, If you have a 12 V system youll want the 12/12/30 non-isolated. And yes, this charger will replace your solenoid. You will only need to run the positive wire from your starter battery to the location of the charger.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

@sunshine_eggo - Sorry, I misspoke, mine is an MPPT Charge Controler, this one. Do you think I can keep rolling with this one? Or will an upgrade squeeze more power out of my meager solar array?

If it's really a 30A MPPT, it's fine.

SHUNT question:
Is this Fusion Energy, TBD-SmartShunt 500 amp Battery Monitor or this WonVon Battery Monitor with Shunt 400A 0V-120V Battery Monitor (which comes with a nice screen + temp monitor, and $100 cheaper) a horrible move? Or just "not quite as good" as the Victron? Just thinking since this is just a monitoring device it might be a decent place to cut some costs. Thoughts?

I'm a Victron fanboi, so my preference is the smartshunt if you're on a budget.

The top 3 battery monitors are viable for your needs:

Off-grid Solar Battery Monitors

Building a vehicle mounted solar power system? Let me help.

www.mobile-solarpower.com

The AiLi monitor is a decent budget one.

 

[efficientPV]

Flexible Monocrystalline Solar Panels from Windy Nation (installed 2017) And they still work?

 

[mikefitz]

Does anyone recommend a different model with 30-60 amp charge capabilities?

Victron Orion XS, 50A

Orion XS 12/12-50A DC-DC Battery Charger - Victron Energy

Engineered from the ground up, the Orion XS redefines adaptive DC-DC charging. For use in dual battery systems charged with an (intelligent) alternator.

www.victronenergy.com

The big advantage over its smaller sibling , the Orion 30A, it has a VE direct port for complete integration into a Victron system.

12V Flexible Monocrystalline Solar Panels from Windy Nation (installed 2017)

It's very probable these have partially failed or degraded significantly. A solar panel test is needed.

 

[HoneyTrek]

Flexible Monocrystalline Solar Panels from Windy Nation (installed 2017) And they still work?

Flexible Monocrystalline Solar Panels from Windy Nation = YES

Installed April 2017 = YES

They still work = Sort of...I get about 2 amps down from the panels right now (in Yuma, Arizona, full sun at 1pm - angle of sun is 33.36° right now). How many amps do you think I should be pulling from the sun?

 

[mikefitz]

Do I need it to be 12/12? or

The DC to DC converter has to be the 12 volt to 12v version.

https://www.amazon.com/Victron-Energy-Orion-Tr-Non-Isolated-Bluetooth/dp/B086Q8YNJZ/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3QW80QFFU9Z3W&keywords=Orion%2B12%2B12%2B30&qid=1704225666&sprefix=orion%2B12%2B12%2B30%2Caps%2C239&sr=8-3&th=1

to cut some costs. Thoughts?

Go for the Victron Smart Shunt, integrates with Victron system, great as stand alone

https://www.amazon.com/Victron-SmartShunt-500AMP-Bluetooth-Battery/dp/B0856PHNLX/ref=sr_1_3?crid=18RAD5QUKYVX3&keywords=victron%2Bsmart%2Bshunt&qid=1704225866&sprefix=Victron%2Bsmart%2Bshunt%2Caps%2C200&sr=8-3&th=1

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Flexible Monocrystalline Solar Panels from Windy Nation = YES

Installed April 2017 = YES

They still work = Sort of...I get about 2 amps down from the panels right now (in Yuma, Arizona, full sun at 1pm - angle of sun is 33.36° right now). How many amps do you think I should be pulling from the sun?

I missed the flexible panel bit... IMHO, you're lucky if they're still working a year after installation. Time for new panels.

Unshaded panels flat on a roof around winter solstice should produce about 40-50% of rated, so I would expect at least 10A at high noon with full sun and clear skies.

 

[HoneyTrek]

Ok, you all have convinced me to spring for the good stuff. Now I am trying to decide between the Victron Energy SmartShunt IP65 500 amp Battery Monitor (Bluetooth) and the Victron Energy BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor (Black). One thing to note is that the compartment where my battery + inverter + soon-to-be Shunt + soon-to-be DCDC charger, all live gets pretty dusty. This is an old rig and I can't keep that area dust-free, especially with all the washboard dirt roads we come across while boondocking the West.

Victron Energy SmartShunt IP65 500 amp Battery Monitor (Bluetooth)

• PROS: Cheaper, fewer things to break, fewer holes in my wall since no display unit, dustproof, waterproof.
• CONS: no constant display to read throughout the day. a friend said you need to be super close to it for the app to work. Does anyone confirm/deny from experience?

Victron Energy BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor (Black)

• PROS: see cons of IP65
• CONS: see pros of IP65

Few things I am not sure of:

• Would both of these sync up with the Victron Energy Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-Volt 30 amp 360-Watt DC-DC Charger Non-Isolated I am buying.
• Is there a way to get the external display (wall mount thing) for the IP65 as an add-on?

 

[Samsonite801]

Ok, you all have convinced me to spring for the good stuff. Now I am trying to decide between the Victron Energy SmartShunt IP65 500 amp Battery Monitor (Bluetooth) and the Victron Energy BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor (Black). One thing to note is that the compartment where my battery + inverter + soon-to-be Shunt + soon-to-be DCDC charger, all live gets pretty dusty. This is an old rig and I can't keep that area dust-free, especially with all the washboard dirt roads we come across while boondocking the West.

Victron Energy SmartShunt IP65 500 amp Battery Monitor (Bluetooth)

• PROS: Cheaper, fewer things to break, fewer holes in my wall since no display unit, dustproof, waterproof.
• CONS: no constant display to read throughout the day. a friend said you need to be super close to it for the app to work. Does anyone confirm/deny from experience?

Victron Energy BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor (Black)

• PROS: see cons of IP65
• CONS: see pros of IP65

Few things I am not sure of:

• Would both of these sync up with the Victron Energy Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-Volt 30 amp 360-Watt DC-DC Charger Non-Isolated I am buying.
• Is there a way to get the external display (wall mount thing) for the IP65 as an add-on?

I much prefer a BMV-712 because it has a remote display that can be mounted much closer than the battery bank, like mine's in the kitchen, so the bluetooth radio is there, closer to where I am. Also BMV has the relay, which I use for temp control to run my LFP battery heater (using the optional thermometer attachment for the BMV-712)...

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Victron Energy SmartShunt IP65 500 amp Battery Monitor (Bluetooth)

• PROS: Cheaper, fewer things to break, fewer holes in my wall since no display unit, dustproof, waterproof.
• CONS: no constant display to read throughout the day. a friend said you need to be super close to it for the app to work. Does anyone confirm/deny from experience?

Smartshunt short range is a known. The proximity of the BT radio to the shunt itself, and interference from current flowing through the shunt cuts the range notably.

Victron Energy BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor (Black)

• PROS: see cons of IP65
• CONS: see pros of IP65

The BT radio is in the display unit, so the BT range is notably farther.

Few things I am not sure of:

• Would both of these sync up with the Victron Energy Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-Volt 30 amp 360-Watt DC-DC Charger Non-Isolated I am buying.

They can't be in a VE.Smart network together.

• Is there a way to get the external display (wall mount thing) for the IP65 as an add-on?

No. There is no plug for it. An old phone or tablet dedicated to running victronconnect is a common solution.

 

[HoneyTrek]

Smartshunt short range is a known. The proximity of the BT radio to the shunt itself, and interference from current flowing through the shunt cuts the range notably.

thanks for the detailed reply. what are your thoughts on me placing this in an environment with lots of dust (not optimal, i know, but it's the reality). think I should go with the IP65 which seems to be made for dusty/wet environments? or do you think it's not a big deal and a dusty environment wont harm the BMV712?