Low power LP furnace ?

[tlstumpf]

I'm also considering an LP furnace and having a hard time with what the solar requirement will be for the blower. Looking a spec sheets for several the electrical connection is 120V single phase with max breaker of 15amp.

 

[Guda]

\

15' of exhaust tubing may have been at least part of the cause of the carbon issues you had with the diesel heater. Another cause is when people start messing with trying to run them on "low". Diesel is a very challenging fuel to burn well and generally speaking they want to be run full time and on high. Running them on low and turning them on and off constantly is a recipe for carbon.

Oh wow. Maybe I'll not go with RV stuff.

My build is kinda funky as its a remodel of a shack & shipping containers. The containers are the core. A long way to vent. Like to just vent out the roof.

I'm also considering an LP furnace and having a hard time with what the solar requirement will be for the blower. Looking a spec sheets for several the electrical connection is 120V single phase with max breaker of 15amp.

Exactly. Starts up at like 12a & then runs on 5a or somethng. Turns on & off depending on outside temp. Very hard to calculate.

Just need to know what the most efficient brand is I guess.

 

[Wellbuilt]

I’ve never noticed any really loud noise with the Williams heater , all heaters tick a little even hot water bace board .
I’ve never had any one complain about the noise .

 

[noenegdod]

Oh wow. Maybe I'll not go with RV stuff.

My build is kinda funky as its a remodel of a shack & shipping containers. The containers are the core. A long way to vent. Like to just vent out the roof.

You can go as long as you want to but you need to be aware of pressure drop. I had made the possibly bad assumption that you had used the style of exhaust tubing that was supplied with the heaters. Using longer runs of that is problematic.

If you were to upgrade to a larger and/or smooth walled tube you can easily go longer. If you were to upgrade to a 2" 304 stainless steel tube to act as you "chimney" you could install a condensation drain at the bottom and run basically as long as you wanted to. Your condensation drain could simply be a piece of 1/4" silicone tube dropped in a bucket or with a U bend in it attached to a 1/4" SS drain tube welded to the bottom of the chimney.

With propane you can use a narrow band O2 sensor (or a wide band if you want) to tune the system and get it running spot on.

 

[Guda]

You can go as long as you want to but you need to be aware of pressure drop. I had made the possibly bad assumption that you had used the style of exhaust tubing that was supplied with the heaters. Using longer runs of that is problematic.

That & running on low 24/7 for months seams to be the issue. Guy that sold me it also sold me extra long exhaust pipe & never said anything. I thought I was a fing genies using all that waste heat..... So you need to waste heat to keep the machine working correctly.... Brilliant engineering...

I want something like this https://www.ebay.com/itm/154249554762 I just want the unit like that that runs on the least power. I am assuming it mostly depends on the fan motor & control panel.

Lowest power consuming brand furnace show down it what we need. As summer arrives....

 

[Galileo]

With a diesel heater like a Webasto there is a maximum exhaust length of 2m, as otherwise the back pressure is too great and you won't get an efficient burn, otherwise known as it will soot up and need regular cleaning, pretty much as you described. So as noenegdod says, you will need to vent into a much larger tube with no restrictions, and make sure you run it on high now and again. My Webasto is a 5kw unit water heater that came out of a Land Rover, is 16 years old, and it's been running an under floor heating system for the past 8 years with no problems.

If you have a hot air burner, find yourself a suitably sized vehicle EGR cooler, put that inline with the exhaust, and with a pump, an indirect hot water cylinder (or maybe a domestic radiator?) and some plumbing you can heat up the water with your exhaust, and not waste heat. As to bad wasteful engineering, look at the efficiency rating of you average car engine..!

 

[Guda]

My Webasto is a 5kw unit water heater that came out of a Land Rover, is 16 years old, and it's been running an under floor heating system for the past 8 years with no problems.

Never had to take it apart in 16 years? This unit I have looks so poorly designed/ built, I cant see it lasting 16 months. I bought the "best" I could get.... Ah capitalism strikes again. Just keep building them cheaper & cheaper, 16 years later they don't last a year. I followed the directions. There was no exhaust length maximum. The seller didn't even know that. Even if they are not garbage, if the directions are not correct then you just have to be lucky.

Well no matter what I am not going back to a diesel heater. I want a thermostat. I don't want to deal with diesel in cans. Propane is cheaper, cleaner & clean to handle.

Propane delivery is really expensive. Top dollar for the propane & the delivery charge. 20gal tanks are the biggest I can buy. I am shooing for 4 of them all hooked up to some kinda system like a RV that can switch tanks.

I will have 2 wood stoves. I am also thinking a lot about hot water. David Poz makes enough hot water in 1 day to last 3. Thats just for hot water. I'm thinking about hot water as heat. But I still want a brute force thermostat activated heater that will keep my Lifepo4 comfy. The quest continues

 

[Guda]

Bought a used Buddy to make it threw tell I can install a furnace. Work a few hours & died on the freezing night.... While it was working I had a sore throat & didn't feel good. So they are complete brain cell killing garbage. I am so sick of all this crap. Diesel heater dies in months & people want to make them sound good by throwing around crazy long years theirs "worked". But no answer on how many times you gotta take it apart. Seams like anything made for RVs or off grid is cheap disposable crap &/or overly needy of ridiculous maintenance. Probably why most people off grid are broke. You buy a furnace for a house that only lasted 4 years? My 2015 very nice RVs furnace died in under 5 years.

I just want a normal furnace that I install once & change a filter every 6 months that is the model that uses the least power. No one knows....

We are ruining our ability to live comfortably on earth with all this disposable crap....

 

[noenegdod]

Bought a used Buddy to make it threw tell I can install a furnace. Work a few hours & died on the freezing night.... While it was working I had a sore throat & didn't feel good. So they are complete brain cell killing garbage. I am so sick of all this crap. Diesel heater dies in months & people want to make them sound good by throwing around crazy long years theirs "worked". But no answer on how many times you gotta take it apart. Seams like anything made for RVs or off grid is cheap disposable crap &/or overly needy of ridiculous maintenance. Probably why most people off grid are broke. You buy a furnace for a house that only lasted 4 years? My 2015 very nice RVs furnace died in under 5 years.

I just want a normal furnace that I install once & change a filter every 6 months that is the model that uses the least power. No one knows....

We are ruining our ability to live comfortably on earth with all this disposable crap....

Please try to take this as constructive.

You have said and acknowledged that you had not installed the diesel heater correctly. It is almost a dead certainty the way it was installed caused your issues with carbon fouling.

They are good, until people start trying to turn them down, mess with settings and install them incorrectly. Then there are always issues.

Have you heard the expression "Its not the plane, its the pilot." Most issues are operator error. If you take the time to learn how to use the tools correctly, they almost always not only simply work but work well, even the chinese ones that cost 1/10 what a wabasto/espar.

Diesel heaters work well if you install them correctly and run them exclusively on high. Basically no one that does this has issues. As I said before, diesel is a difficult fuel to burn well, especially on such a small scale. You must follow the instructions, if you dont, you will have issues. The second you attempt to stray from the instructions and recommended installation, you must have a wide knowledge base of all associated subjects to pull the install off. Im getting the sense your not interested in that. If that is the case, save yourself the hours of frustration and just hire someone that has the knowledge.

 

[Wellbuilt]

Yes the buddy heaters are not good , I would use one of the Williams wall-mounted heaters .
They work really good , easy on fuel , plenty of heat , you can run it off a thermostat
Dosent use power , at least mine don’t .

ps if you get dirty propane the buddy will clog up and not work .
They sell a filter that go’s on the heater to prevent this

 

[Guda]

You have said and acknowledged that you had not installed the diesel heater correctly. It is almost a dead certainty the way it was installed caused your issues with carbon fouling.

They are good, until people start trying to turn them down, mess with settings and install them incorrectly. Then there are always issues.

I followed the directions, the English part. How would someone know that info? Cant run it on low, has to waste heat to work, diesel stinks. The problem here is they are built for vehicles & people that know nothing are selling them for tiny homes. They are not a good option for a tiny home in a area with propane.

Have you heard the expression "Its not the plane, its the pilot." Most issues are operator error. If you take the time to learn how to use the tools correctly, they almost always not only simply work but work well, even the chinese ones that cost 1/10 what a wabasto/espar.

Good point. But its a heater, with Chinese directions. I would have never guessed a heater would require so much TLC. I'll change the heaters air filter. Thats about all the time I have in my life to mess with a heater/furnace. I have way better things to do & the $ to not buy crap. But people are motivated by profit. So they sell you bs, tell you what ever it takes to make that sale.... I never should have been sold a diesel heater with 30' of exhaust pipe. But that was a good extra sale for the profit for some know nothing capitalpath.

Yes the buddy heaters are not good , I would use one of the Williams wall-mounted heaters .
They work really good , easy on fuel , plenty of heat , you can run it off a thermostat
Dosent use power , at least mine don’t .

ps if you get dirty propane the buddy will clog up and not work .
They sell a filter that go’s on the heater to prevent this

"Dirty propane"..... Didn't even know that was a thing....

The ticking unit. Ticking would be way better than freezing.

Maybe I should move somewhere thats not freezing 8 months a year. I don't mind the cold but I've almost died twice now due to trying have power & not freeze.

Here is an example. Had I posted here "thinking about diesel heater, what should I know?" Would I have got the correct info? When I asked "what is this" & provided a photo of a continues duty solenoid. I got the wrong answer, bought, installed & fried the wrong part due to someone that sounded so knowledgeable being wrong.

At the time I watched 4-5 diesel heater installation videos. Not 1 said anything about exhaust length or that running on low is bad. The fact someone would need to read this thread to find that out proves my point. I wish past me could come to the future & read this before buying that heater in the 1st place.

 

[Austan]

You are saying a lp furnace that "uses the least power". I'm assuming you mean electric power? Have you looked for one that operates with a thermocouple? After the pilot is lit, the heat creates the electric power needed to turn the gas on and off and is self regulating using a thermostat on the wall.
We use one for our off grid cabin and it works great but we're heating one big room and a couple bedrooms. Ours does not operate with ducting but I would have to think one exists if you need that.

 

[Guda]

You are saying a lp furnace that "uses the least power". I'm assuming you mean electric power?

Yup, just like a normal furnace. I guess "forced air" would be the name.

These things might have crazy high usage at their panel & a not very efficient fan motor. Not much info on speck sheets either. Why I asked here.

At this point I'll do the test if we can narrow to 2-3 units. I had already been thinking about installing 2 right from the start. Backup. I'll buy them, install & test. Then I'll use the best one & keep the other(s) as backup.

 

[noenegdod]

I have way better things to do & the $ to not buy crap.

Then why by chinese? Spend that $ on an espar/wabasto that will come with directions you can read and actual tech support that will answer your questions. Yes, I know your not interested in diesel anymore.

Just hire the job out if you actually have the money and leave it up to someone that knows what they are doing.

Have some one stick this in: https://hvacdirect.com/goodman-96-a...-speed-gas-furnace-1200-cfm-gmec960603an.html

and call it a day 60,000 btu on high and 60% of that on low. Draws to much power? Spend some of that $ on a bit more solar panel battery.

Fact: if you want high efficiency (fuel) then you are going to be using more electricity. You cant get away from that.

 

[LanduytG]

I followed the directions, the English part. How would someone know that info? Cant run it on low, has to waste heat to work, diesel stinks. The problem here is they are built for vehicles & people that know nothing are selling them for tiny homes. They are not a good option for a tiny home in a area with propane.

Good point. But its a heater, with Chinese directions. I would have never guessed a heater would require so much TLC. I'll change the heaters air filter. Thats about all the time I have in my life to mess with a heater/furnace. I have way better things to do & the $ to not buy crap. But people are motivated by profit. So they sell you bs, tell you what ever it takes to make that sale.... I never should have been sold a diesel heater with 30' of exhaust pipe. But that was a good extra sale for the profit for some know nothing capitalpath.


"Dirty propane"..... Didn't even know that was a thing....

The ticking unit. Ticking would be way better than freezing.

Maybe I should move somewhere thats not freezing 8 months a year. I don't mind the cold but I've almost died twice now due to trying have power & not freeze.

Here is an example. Had I posted here "thinking about diesel heater, what should I know?" Would I have got the correct info? When I asked "what is this" & provided a photo of a continues duty solenoid. I got the wrong answer, bought, installed & fried the wrong part due to someone that sounded so knowledgeable being wrong.

At the time I watched 4-5 diesel heater installation videos. Not 1 said anything about exhaust length or that running on low is bad. The fact someone would need to read this thread to find that out proves my point. I wish past me could come to the future & read this before buying that heater in the 1st place.

Well if you had not bought a cheap knock off you would have known all the info. Buy Espar the new ones are brushless motors and will last year's. 24mm exhaust 2meters max. Go to 30mm exhaust and run 4 meters. If you have all this money to spend then spend on quality and buy from a dealer that knows.

Greg

 

[Guda]

Then why by chinese? Spend that $ on an espar/wabasto that will come with directions you can read and actual tech support that will answer your questions. Yes, I know your not interested in diesel anymore.

No idea there was name brand. Typical with these garbage systems the world is run by. The crap fills the search. Liars. I was told I was buying the best one.

Fact: if you want high efficiency (fuel) then you are going to be using more electricity. You cant get away from that

That is super interesting. Do you think that can be used to find the lowest electric consumer?

Draws to much power? Spend some of that $ on a bit more solar panel battery.

Thats the plan but again... Was sold a 46.8v battery as a 48v battery by Big Battery so I am just going to use that until I have a climate controlled area for to build my own. Climate controlled by a furnace...

Just hire the job out if you actually have the money and leave it up to someone that knows what they are doing.

A few reasons. If I pay people to do everything I wont have enough $ to do everything & I am not doing permits.

Well if you had not bought a cheap knock off you would have known all the info. Buy Espar the new ones are brushless motors and will last year's. 24mm exhaust 2meters max. Go to 30mm exhaust and run 4 meters. If you have all this money to spend then spend on quality and buy from a dealer that knows

I'll make sure to tell past me that.

I never wanted a diesel heater. It seamed a quick easy way to have heat that would always be there if all other systems failed. But they are stinky & inefficient at best.

I made a video about the install. Its one of my most popular videos. No one said anything about the exhaust. The only person to comment said I needed a "burn plate & pump on hand". No such thing as a "burn plate". So there is like 5 people on the planet that know about theses things & there all here loving them. lol

 

[noenegdod]

That is super interesting. Do you think that can be used to find the lowest electric consumer?

The lowest electric consumer will be the one that draws NO electricity. They will be natural draft and have no circulation fan like that williams unit on page 1. They will all be 70ish% efficient as they require hot combustion gasses to produce the draft through both the chimney and the convection current to heat the building. This is your lowest consumer of electricity.

To answer the question though, no, fuel efficiency would not be a reliable way to assess what is the lowest consumer of electricity. All things being equal then yes it would but market and design factors influence as well. It is a good indicator of what to expect assuming it was designed and built well but not an absolute.

 

[Guda]

The lowest electric consumer will be the one that draws NO electricity. They will be natural draft and have no circulation fan like that williams unit on page 1. They will all be 70ish% efficient as they require hot combustion gasses to produce the draft through both the chimney and the convection current to heat the building. This is your lowest consumer of electricity.

I would have already got one but the ticking worries me. I've given up all my hopes & dreams except for a good nights sleep. My rooms I need to keep warm are 2x 20' shipping containers that are not connected side by side. If I have a forced air unit in one container ducked to the other, it will keep the unit its in from freezing also. Thats why I was not concerned about the efficiency. I'm pretty much just concerned electric consumption

 

[Wellbuilt]

If you read the buddy directions it tells you about the filter .
How. Big is your place ?
My cabin is 2800 sf I just heat with wood.
It’s cold here , in the teens or single digits every night I get weeks of below zero .
I load my stove a few times a day and just keep a large ceiling fan spinning in reverse the fan uses 25 watts on slow
the 5 rooms up stairs stays 67o down stairs stays 70ish .
The fan on a forced air furnace uses 1200 watts or more .
I hate the sound of the fan on those for sure .
I’ve stayed in a lot of cabins with the Williams heaters , off grid they are the way to go .
You can just use a ceiling fan to move the heat the same way.
I would not even get a blower unit for the Williams

 

[Wellbuilt]

So you need to heat 8x8x40’ ?
That is not very big , if you have good insulation 320sf can be heated with a smaller unit .
The ticking is nowheres near as loud as a fan blowing .