Multi RS Solar vs EasySolar-II - Comparison

[totalconfusion]

Hi there,

I was hoping someone could illustrate the differences between these two units as they look similar in a lot of ways:


Multi RS Solar 48/6000

EasySolar-II 5kVA MPPT 250/100 GX


They are both within a few hundred dollars of each other. Is the Multi RS a much newer product? Why is there such a massive difference in weight? The Multi RS is 11kg and the EasySolar is 38.6kg

It seems like the EasySolar-II has a lot more PV capacity.

They seem to have different AC inputs and outputs. It looks like the Multi RS has x2 AC outputs and x1 AC input, where as the EasySolar-II has x1 AC output and x1 AC input, it's not very clear to me.

Will they both happily take a generator input? The generator has remote start.

I would like the ability to use the VRM portal. Would having either one of these devices remove the need for me to purchase a Cerbo GX?

When considering whether to get discrete components or an all in one system like these, what are the pros and cons? Price? Redundancy? Is there much if any money to be saved buying the components individually?


I plan on using these panels in either a 6s2p configuration OR a 2s4p configuration

x12 Trina Vertex S 415W (TSM-415DE09R.05)

The battery is:

48v PylonTech US5000


Thanks for the help!

 

[sunshine_eggo]

There are quite a few differences between them.

First question: Do you use 230VAC/50Hz single phase power?

 

[totalconfusion]

There are quite a few differences between them.

First question: Do you use 230VAC/50Hz single phase power?

I sure do

 

[sunshine_eggo]

The RS is analogous to the cheap Chinese AiO. Lightweight, negligible surge. It also has a high voltage/low current MPPT meaning that in your 6S2P configuration, you'll be over paneled by >10% due to their panel 2P Imp being 20A vs. the 18A input max. 4P is just outright not an option.

It would need a GX device to be used with VRM or to interface with the Pylontech.

The EasySolar is an integration of 3 products: a MP-II 48/5000 (heavy transformer - legit surge capability), a MPPT 250/100 and a GX device. It is VRM ready and will interface with the Pylontech.

It has a lower voltage, much higher current MPPT. I don't see a PV input current limit, but for that standalone model, it is 70A. You would likely best be served by a 4S3P or 3P4S config. 6S2P is not an option.

There are more differences, but those are the big ones, and the ones that I regard as the most important.

They are both within a few hundred dollars of each other. Is the Multi RS a much newer product? Why is there such a massive difference in weight? The Multi RS is 11kg and the EasySolar is 38.6kg

RS no surge vs. ES lotsa surge.

It seems like the EasySolar-II has a lot more PV capacity.

RS 4000W, ES 5800W

They seem to have different AC inputs and outputs. It looks like the Multi RS has x2 AC outputs and x1 AC input, where as the EasySolar-II has x1 AC output and x1 AC input, it's not very clear to me.

I'm not seeing the difference. Many Victron inverters have a second AC output that is only enabled when AC input is present.

Will they both happily take a generator input?

Yes.

The generator has remote start.

Both can likely deal with generator remote start, but I don't have that expertise. I know there are inverter-based assistants that can autostart a suitable generator, and the GX device has built in means as well.

I would like the ability to use the VRM portal. Would having either one of these devices remove the need for me to purchase a Cerbo GX?

RS needs a Cerbo.

When considering whether to get discrete components or an all in one system like these, what are the pros and cons? Price? Redundancy? Is there much if any money to be saved buying the components individually?

I hate the idea of losing an entire system because one component has failed, and the whole box has to go back. I would never personally go that route unless there was a very compelling reason to do so.

 

[totalconfusion]

Thanks so much for the quick response. It's a no brainer, the EasySolar-II is better in every way.

EasySolar-II 48/5000 = AUD $3,981.01

When I price the components individually:

MPPT 250/100 TR VE.Can = $1297.10
+
MultiPlus II 48/5000 = $2,351.00
MultiPlus II 48/8000 = $4,555.00
MultiPlus II 48/10000 = $5,499.00
+
Cerbo GX = $386.75

= $4034.85

$53.84 more expensive but I get redundancy and more options to swap things around down the line.

I had a couple of questions regarding charging amperage if you don't mind?
The PylonTech battery recommends charging at 80A. The MP-II will do 70A so that's fine but if in the future I get another battery or two and run them in parallel. I'll need 160A or 240A charging right? or should I not be charging them at 0.8c in the first place? maybe 0.35c would be more appropriate and gives me room for another battery

I'm trying to work out if the 48/5000 will do or if I should really be thinking about getting the 48/8000 or 48/10000 at double the price.

This is my Genset

Come to think about it, I don't actually know how inverters and generators work together. Does the inverter need to handle all the current from the generator or is it not going through the inverter at all?

Can you give me a 101 on transfer switches and auxiliary outputs

 

[sunshine_eggo]

You will have additional expenditures on bus bars, wiring, etc., beyond the base price differences, and more space on a board, but I'm still firmly in the separate component category.

The Pylontech will communicate the maximum charge current allowed by the batteries, and the GX will limit all attached chargers to that total maximum. You can further limit charge current in the Cerbo DVCC menu if you want to restrict charging to a more conservative rate. That limit will not prevent additional power production to power loads.

You should size your inverter based on your power needs, not your generator. You should size your generator on the inverter you need for your loads.

If the inverter is drawing from an AC source, it passes through the AC source to loads and uses any surplus to charge the battery.

If anything, that generator is undersized for a 5000VA unit. You need to have a generator 30-50% larger than your inverter rating as the generator is providing BOTH the power to loads AND charging while running, so it needs to be capable of MORE than the inverter's rating to deliver the inverter output PLUS charging.

MultiPlus Generator FAQ [Victron Energy]

www.victronenergy.com

A big plus with the Victron systems is PowerAssist. If you're exceeding the allowed input amps from the AC source, the inverter will supplement the incoming AC with inverter power. It will stop charging and switch to inverter mode to boost the incoming AC to prevent overload of the incoming AC. When the load decreases, the inverter will switch back to charger mode. This makes charging with an undersized generator more practical.

I have dual Quattro 48/5K in 120/240V split phase config. I current have a puny 120/240 3850W generator that meets my charge/load needs the vast majority of the time, but I can still use loads without fear of an overload due to power assist.

An important concept: Sources don't push. Loads pull.

Example: Light bulb. You plug a 60W light bulb into a circuit capable of delivering over 2000W, but you're not worried about popping the light bulb. The bulb is a load and it draws what it needs - no more.

The battery is a load to the charger (generator/MPPT). The charger is a load to the generator. The loads take what they need.

The EXCEPTION to this is a grid tie inverter. They expect to have an infinite grid in which they can PUSH their maximum output. Interfacing with a grid tie inverter requires special considerations.

 

[totalconfusion]

Thanks so much for the help mate.
I'm pretty confident going forward with the MultiPlus II 48/5000

I'll be purchasing a Current Transformer for MultiPlus-II so I can use PowerAssist
Should I change the input current limit on the Multiplus-II to 25A (Maybe less?)

That Victron FAQ link was super handy, I appreciate you showing me.
Pulling not pushing is a great way to think about it.

The only thing I'm still a little concerned about is the charging capacity of the system for the batteries.

The PylonTech battery recommends charging at 80A. The MP-II will do 70A so that's fine but if in the future I get another battery or two and run them in parallel. I'll need 160A or 240A charging right? or should I not be charging them at 0.8c in the first place? maybe 0.35c would be more appropriate and gives me room for another battery

Or am I really overthinking things here? Can I later down the line just buy a discrete charger and add that to the system somehow as opposed to over sizing the Multiplus-II Inverter/Charger now in anticipation of getting another battery.

I just don't want to have a 400AH 48V system in the future and be forced to charge at a terribly slow rate because I didn't think about it at the start

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Thanks so much for the help mate.
I'm pretty confident going forward with the MultiPlus II 48/5000

I'll be purchasing a Current Transformer for MultiPlus-II so I can use PowerAssist
Should I change the input current limit on the Multiplus-II to 25A (Maybe less?)

I don't think this is necessary for PowerAssist if you're not backfeeding to the grid. @HighTechLab ?

The only thing I'm still a little concerned about is the charging capacity of the system for the batteries.

Or am I really overthinking things here? Can I later down the line just buy a discrete charger and add that to the system somehow as opposed to over sizing the Multiplus-II Inverter/Charger now in anticipation of getting another battery.

I just don't want to have a 400AH 48V system in the future and be forced to charge at a terribly slow rate because I didn't think about it at the start

You'll need to manage the current limit of any non GX interfaced chargers you add to the system. 400Ah is happiest at 80Ah charging for cycle life. Typical maximum would be 200A. The most your generator can put out is about 100A.

70A, ~4kW out of your generator is between 50-70%, which is pretty much optimal balance between efficiency and longevity.

 

[HighTechLab]

Only if you’re trying to power assist or offset loads that are before the Multiplus. If the loads are connected to the output of the Multiplus then the CT is not necessary.

 

[totalconfusion]

Only if you’re trying to power assist or offset loads that are before the Multiplus. If the loads are connected to the output of the Multiplus then the CT is not necessary.

Great, thanks for saving me a few bucks

I don't think this is necessary for PowerAssist if you're not backfeeding to the grid. @HighTechLab ?

How about setting the input current limit to 25A or less?
I was reading that FAQ you linked and it also mentions "Dynamic current limiter" should I enable it?

The most your generator can put out is about 100A.

How did you get to that figure?

Thanks so much

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Great, thanks for saving me a few bucks


How about setting the input current limit to 25A or less?

25A * 230V = 5750W

I was reading that FAQ you linked and it also mentions "Dynamic current limiter" should I enable it?

No. That is mostly just educational. The recommendations in that doc are steps you can take if you have issues with the generator.

How did you get to that figure?

6750W / 56V * .9 = 108A

I rounded down since you never want to run them at max.

 

[bds70]

I don't think this is necessary for PowerAssist if you're not backfeeding to the grid. @HighTechLab ?



You'll need to manage the current limit of any non GX interfaced chargers you add to the system. 400Ah is happiest at 80Ah charging for cycle life. Typical maximum would be 200A. The most your generator can put out is about 100A.

70A, ~4kW out of your generator is between 50-70%, which is pretty much optimal balance between efficiency and longevity.

Hope U don't mind me jumping in here. I am about to change my system, but my question is about gennies. I currently run 2 x 3000w Multiplus inverter (not linked) when my batteries get low, I fire up my very small 2.5kv gennie. Everything runs ok, reverse cycle AC, 2 household fridges, induction cooker, microwave and the batteries charge.

Reading your reply to the op seems to suggest that shouldn't be possible.

Can you de-confuse me please. Lol.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Hope U don't mind me jumping in here. I am about to change my system, but my question is about gennies. I currently run 2 x 3000w Multiplus inverter (not linked) when my batteries get low, I fire up my very small 2.5kv gennie. Everything runs ok, reverse cycle AC, 2 household fridges, induction cooker, microwave and the batteries charge.

Reading your reply to the op seems to suggest that shouldn't be possible.

Can you de-confuse me please. Lol.

You're going to have to be more specific. The only thing that bothers me about your post is that your inverters aren't linked. I'm assuming their outputs are completely separate.

I don't see what shouldn't be possible.

 

[bds70]

You're going to have to be more specific. The only thing that bothers me about your post is that your inverters aren't linked. I'm assuming their outputs are completely separate.

I don't see what shouldn't be possible.

Yes that's right each inverter supplies a different load circuit.

The thing I am wondering about is why my very small gennie is able to continue to run all loads.

You said

If anything, that generator is undersized for a 5000VA unit. You need to have a generator 30-50% larger than your inverter rating as the generator is providing BOTH the power to loads AND charging while running, so it needs to be capable of MORE than the inverter's rating to deliver the inverter output PLUS charging.

My 2.5kv gennie doesn't meet that criteria, so unless I have something totally mixed up (a strong possibility lol) then how am I still able to run those AC loads AS WELL as charge the battery bank?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Yes that's right each inverter supplies a different load circuit.

The thing I am wondering about is why my very small gennie is able to continue to run all loads.

You said


My 2.5kv gennie doesn't meet that criteria, so unless I have something totally mixed up (a strong possibility lol) then how am I still able to run those AC loads AS WELL as charge the battery bank?

You might have missed this:

A big plus with the Victron systems is PowerAssist. If you're exceeding the allowed input amps from the AC source, the inverter will supplement the incoming AC with inverter power. It will stop charging and switch to inverter mode to boost the incoming AC to prevent overload of the incoming AC. When the load decreases, the inverter will switch back to charger mode. This makes charging with an undersized generator more practical.

You are likely engaging power assist when you exceed the AC input limit of the generator OR you are very lucky and you haven't tripped the generator overload.

I've been surprised by my generator's ability to tolerate overload. While it's rated for 15A output (120V per leg), I've successfully pulled 20-22A for several minutes.

 

[marionw]

Many generators output crappy AC when approaching or exceeding their rated power. The peaks of the waveform are clipped and oftentimes the frequency is way off. For non inverter type generators the frequency is controlled by the engine rpm which significanty drops under load until the governor/throttle can respond and get the engine back up to correct rpm (usually 1800 or some multiple of 60; US)

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Many generators output crappy AC when approaching or exceeding their rated power. The peaks of the waveform are clipped and oftentimes the frequency is way off. For non inverter type generators the frequency is controlled by the engine rpm which significanty drops under load until the governor/throttle can respond and get the engine back up to correct rpm (usually 1800 or some multiple of 60; US)

Yep. Mine is about ±2Hz, and I definitely get voltage sag at the higher current. The generator breaker trips after several minutes. I was just surprised it tolerated it as long as it did. Gave me the confidence to run it at 14.5A for a few hours on the very rare occasion I need to run it.

 

[Brucey]

Yes that's right each inverter supplies a different load circuit.

The thing I am wondering about is why my very small gennie is able to continue to run all loads.

You said


My 2.5kv gennie doesn't meet that criteria, so unless I have something totally mixed up (a strong possibility lol) then how am I still able to run those AC loads AS WELL as charge the battery bank?

If your loads/system is small enough then you don't need the bigger generator. I think he's referring to supporting an inverter running at full load plus significant/full battery charging.

 

[bds70]

You might have missed this:



You are likely engaging power assist when you exceed the AC input limit of the generator OR you are very lucky and you haven't tripped the generator overload.

I've been surprised by my generator's ability to tolerate overload. While it's rated for 15A output (120V per leg), I've successfully pulled 20-22A for several minutes

You might have missed this:



You are likely engaging power assist when you exceed the AC input limit of the generator OR you are very lucky and you haven't tripped the generator overload.

I've been surprised by my generator's ability to tolerate overload. While it's rated for 15A output (120V per leg), I've successfully pulled 20-22A for several minutes.

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.