My 44kW vertical and bifacial set in Finland.

[shadowmaker]

I think your failure mode will be the poles, the ground heave force will rip the frames apart like paper ( think ice expansion sinks ships )

thumbs up for all the efforts, and would be very happy to be wrong about failures!

I am more concerned about high winds, but you can be right. Time will tell. I have done some precautions for ground heave force by hammering (not digging) those poles all the way to 2m deep + some insulation around the poles. Ground frost can be like 1m here, but not on the wheatfield like this with snow on it. It's more likely to have max 30cm of frost, but I guess even that can cause some changes on the poles. I have geothermal heating in my house and it is taking heat from 1m deep buried pipelines (3x500m) underneath another field nearby and even that never gets below freezing. Usually there is still +2-+4C on the ground when heating season is over.

Also I'm using homemade SS fasteners to leave room for pole movement. There's also 4mm mudflap rubber between fastener and frame to reduce movement and sound.

 

[galstaf]

I am more concerned about high winds, but you can be right. Time will tell. I have done some precautions for ground heave force by hammering (not digging) those poles all the way to 2m deep + some insulation around the poles. Ground frost can be like 1m here, but not on the wheatfield like this with snow on it. It's more likely to have max 30cm of frost, but I guess even that can cause some changes on the poles. I have geothermal heating in my house and it is taking heat from 1m deep buried pipelines (3x500m) underneath another field nearby and even that never gets below freezing. Usually there is still +2-+4C on the ground when heating season is over.

Also I'm using homemade SS fasteners to leave room for pole movement. There's also 4mm mudflap rubber between fastener and frame to reduce movement and sound.

View attachment 125324

You clearly thought this out and it looks to be well engineered. The wind load will definitely be significant, but this looks beefy enough as long as your welds hold. The sliding points for lateral shift should do the trick.
If you are using geothermal at 1m then the frost heave won't be sufficient to shift those poles. Like you said, the snow will insulate the underlying dirt.
I think the system will be fine until the poles finally decompose. Hopefully we will all be dead by then and it will be somebody elses problem. ;-)

Nice work! Stay warm! We have a couple of days below 0C here in the Southeast US over Christmas and I am loath to go outside and work on anything. The odd year when we get more than a couple of days of snow is plenty for me!

 

[shadowmaker]

You clearly thought this out and it looks to be well engineered. The wind load will definitely be significant, but this looks beefy enough as long as your welds hold. The sliding points for lateral shift should do the trick.
If you are using geothermal at 1m then the frost heave won't be sufficient to shift those poles. Like you said, the snow will insulate the underlying dirt.
I think the system will be fine until the poles finally decompose. Hopefully we will all be dead by then and it will be somebody elses problem. ;-)

Nice work! Stay warm! We have a couple of days below 0C here in the Southeast US over Christmas and I am loath to go outside and work on anything. The odd year when we get more than a couple of days of snow is plenty for me!

Trial and error, not so much thoughts...

 

[x98myers7]

it appears those are lag "screws" in the wood I would highly recommend you replace them with bolts, backing plate and lock nuts all the way through the pole. even slight amounts of wind will work those screws loose pretty quickly. looks like a nice setup!

you could always add a guy wire to aid in stabilizing the poles if you find there is too much movement.

 

[shadowmaker]

it appears those are lag "screws" in the wood I would highly recommend you replace them with bolts, backing plate and lock nuts all the way through the pole. even slight amounts of wind will work those screws loose pretty quickly. looks like a nice setup!

you could always add a guy wire to aid in stabilizing the poles if you find there is too much movement.

I thought about the wire too and that could help. I'll keep an eye on those screws.

 

[galstaf]

I thought about the wire too and that could help. I'll keep an eye on those screws.

Keep the pictures coming! Love what you are doing!

 

[shadowmaker]

Four sets (another 8,4kW) glued today. Took the whole day, so now I have to work almost all night to catch up with my work. It has been way too windy outside to even think about installation, but maybe it will calm down by Monday, hopefully. Also have four frames ready for glueing, but progress is slow. Also everything is a mess and I hate that.

 

[Larry Oswald]

-15C and sunshine with no wind at all. Installation is quite easy with excavator, but some adjustment still needs to be done for the frame design. 8,4kW nominal installed so 19% done already. Only 17 sets to go...?

View attachment 125079

View attachment 125078

I love this. Like the Dutch the Finns follow the Nike motto , "JUST DO IT." Bifacial and vertical is smart as the summer sun swings about 300 degrees from northeast to south to northwest. Winter will be another story. SSE to SSW for four hours. The equinox seasons should be fine. For winter you need firewood and maybe a huge battery. :>)

 

[OzSolar]

"Shadowmaker" .... I just got it! Clever

 

[Sverige]

Almost everything is around 50% off compared to shop prices around here and one of the main objectives is trying to keep costs down.

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your interesting installation. I’m looking forward to reading more updates.

I’m curious how you managed to buy at such good rates? My wife, who is finnish, tells me Finland is the land of high prices on everything! ?

 

[shadowmaker]

I love this. Like the Dutch the Finns follow the Nike motto , "JUST DO IT." Bifacial and vertical is smart as the summer sun swings about 300 degrees from northeast to south to northwest. Winter will be another story. SSE to SSW for four hours. The equinox seasons should be fine. For winter you need firewood and maybe a huge battery. :>)

My array is facing SE/NW, because I didn't want to interfere farming the field. E/W would be the best orientation according the latest studies, but I'll have to wait and see. Panels are about 10 degree shy from being vertical as I want to harvest energy even when sun is high in the summer noon and in the winter when sun is low, it's almost optimal tilt. In the winter direct sunlight is only harvested on front side of the panel (backside has only albedo), but summertime the backside has direct sunshine up to 11 o'clock in the evening. I figured out that while the backside angle is totally wrong for direct sunshine, at that time of the day sun is low enough not to make huge difference. In any case angle is vertical enough to keep the snow off. I really haven't calculated anything, I just go with my gut feeling. Trial and error, mostly error.

In the winter I need grid, because there's not enough sun. I did get a 2kW vertical wind turbine too for the fun of it. Maybe I'll be installing more turbines in the future. I do have an old 30kW forklift battery and also 20kW lifepos are on their way, but still I need grid to make it up here.

 

[shadowmaker]

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your interesting installation. I’m looking forward to reading more updates.

I’m curious how you managed to buy at such good rates? My wife, who is finnish, tells me Finland is the land of high prices on everything! ?

Thanks. I have been sick for almost the whole week now and I don't get any sick leave unless my head gets detached from my body, so I have been resting and solar installation is on hold at the moment.

In here it's very easy to get good rates, when you just don't buy things from here... I grouped up with some of my friends and we bought almost everything directly from China. My friend did all the negotiating as he has more time in hand than I do. I think we made our purchase in the right time as prices have gone up substantially after that. I paid 0,54/W including panels + four 15kW on-grid inverters + 500m 6mm2 copper wire + home delivery + 24% VAT. At first I wasn't going to get any batteries, but after getting an old 30kW forklift battery and 7,2kW UPS for free and found a new 3kW UPS for 600e including delivery and VAT, I decided to get some lifepos too. This meant that I had to change two of my on-grid inverters to hybrid ones. Fortunately there's such a high demand on inverters here, that I more than doubled my money on them, so paying 2,3ke/pc (including delivery/VAT) on Deye 15/12kW hybrid inverters wasn't that bad. My lifepos are still on their way, but my friend got his installed around Christmas time. I don't know who is scamming who, but we got them dirt cheap. If even my delivery is what I ordered, like my friend's did, I'm going to order some more. I'm not allowed to talk anything more about them. I don't know if they are stolen or something and I don't even want to know.

What's not that cheap is aluminum (2,5ke) and underground cables (4,5ke). Doing a lot by myself should be cheap, but when you daytime job is 85-110h/week, I don't know about that either.

What I need to find is a cheap 230V/160A automatic transfer switch that doesn't look all that chinese.

 

[Sverige]

Thanks. I have been sick for almost the whole week now and I don't get any sick leave unless my head gets detached from my body, so I have been resting and solar installation is on hold at the moment.

In here it's very easy to get good rates, when you just don't buy things from here... I grouped up with some of my friends and we bought almost everything directly from China. My friend did all the negotiating as he has more time in hand than I do. I think we made our purchase in the right time as prices have gone up substantially after that. I paid 0,54/W including panels + four 15kW on-grid inverters + 500m 6mm2 copper wire + home delivery + 24% VAT. At first I wasn't going to get any batteries, but after getting an old 30kW forklift battery and 7,2kW UPS for free and found a new 3kW UPS for 600e including delivery and VAT, I decided to get some lifepos too. This meant that I had to change two of my on-grid inverters to hybrid ones. Fortunately there's such a high demand on inverters here, that I more than doubled my money on them, so paying 2,3ke/pc (including delivery/VAT) on Deye 15/12kW hybrid inverters wasn't that bad. My lifepos are still on their way, but my friend got his installed around Christmas time. I don't know who is scamming who, but we got them dirt cheap. If even my delivery is what I ordered, like my friend's did, I'm going to order some more. I'm not allowed to talk anything more about them. I don't know if they are stolen or something and I don't even want to know.

What's not that cheap is aluminum (2,5ke) and underground cables (4,5ke). Doing a lot by myself should be cheap, but when you daytime job is 85-110h/week, I don't know about that either.

What I need to find is a cheap 230V/160A automatic transfer switch that doesn't look all that chinese.

Thanks for your reply. $4,500 on underground cable is certainly up there…! And you’re really diving in at the deep end with your first solar install, but sounds like you’re very well informed, so I’ll look forward to seeing more in this thread. Will be a pretty exciting spring and summer for you as the sunshine arrives, because I know pretty well how dark it is at this time of year.

Is it just your domestic consumption which you’re powering, or do you have some industrial unit there, as your power needs seem to be fairly high? Will you be able to use all your power in high summer, or perhaps you’ll become the neighbourhood utility supplier and ship it out to neighbours

I know you said you’re not allowed to talk too much, but can you share what unit price those LiFePO4s came out at? There are good deals from time to time, but also lots of false promises from Chinese sellers and downright fraud involving faked tracking numbers which show “at local delivery office” for items never sent, so sometimes when the price is too good to be true, it’s not a good sign.

 

[shadowmaker]

Thanks for your reply. $4,500 on underground cable is certainly up there…! And you’re really diving in at the deep end with your first solar install, but sounds like you’re very well informed, so I’ll look forward to seeing more in this thread. Will be a pretty exciting spring and summer for you as the sunshine arrives, because I know pretty well how dark it is at this time of year.

Is it just your domestic consumption which you’re powering, or do you have some industrial unit there, as your power needs seem to be fairly high? Will you be able to use all your power in high summer, or perhaps you’ll become the neighbourhood utility supplier and ship it out to neighbours

I know you said you’re not allowed to talk too much, but can you share what unit price those LiFePO4s came out at? There are good deals from time to time, but also lots of false promises from Chinese sellers and downright fraud involving faked tracking numbers which show “at local delivery office” for items never sent, so sometimes when the price is too good to be true, it’s not a good sign.

I am more curious about winter production, but hopefully I get everything working before it's over. In the summer there will be more than enough solar power with this setup.

I have a big old house with all year around 30C swimming pool outside plus two moderately heated big old garages, like really big. It would be fun to get all the electricity needed from solar panels/wind turbine(s), but I doubt it. Not in the winter time.

We already got 70kW of batteries and 40kW of that has been already installed. It seems they are as promised. My batteries are coming with the next batch and if they still are like the ones we already have, I'm ordering some more. First batch took more than two months to arrive, so we were worried of course. Like you said, when it's too good to be true, it probably isn't. I'm not going to tell prices. My friend made these prices possible for us and I'm not going to ruin this for him. All I can say that making a DIY battery out of A grade cells isn't worth it unless you just want to tinker on your spare time.

 

[Sverige]

I am more curious about winter production, but hopefully I get everything working before it's over. In the summer there will be more than enough solar power with this setup.

I have a big old house with all year around 30C swimming pool outside plus two moderately heated big old garages, like really big. It would be fun to get all the electricity needed from solar panels/wind turbine(s), but I doubt it. Not in the winter time.

We already got 70kW of batteries and 40kW of that has been already installed. It seems they are as promised. My batteries are coming with the next batch and if they still are like the ones we already have, I'm ordering some more. First batch took more than two months to arrive, so we were worried of course. Like you said, when it's too good to be true, it probably isn't. I'm not going to tell prices. My friend made these prices possible for us and I'm not going to ruin this for him. All I can say that making a DIY battery out of A grade cells isn't worth it unless you just want to tinker on your spare time.

A pool heated to 30C all year around in Finland must tick through a fair amount of electricity consumption, even with the ground source heat pump. What’s your annual usage?

Winter production will likely disappoint you - my experience over in Sweden is that there are many days when panels will make no more than a few percent of their rated power, so even with a lot of panels you still end up with sod all power.

 

[shadowmaker]

Annual usage is around 40000kWh. I'm hoping to almost cover it with solar/wind installation, but sadly the biggest output is when my usage is at its lowest.

 

[shadowmaker]

My friend told me today that my wind turbine has arrived to his place. Also my lifepo batteries should be there in two weeks. Unfortunately there has been some mix-up with my battery order and instead of four 5kW batteries I'm getting only three this time. That's ok as I was already planning to order some more, if this first set is as promised.

Now, as I'm a noob, can anyone tell how to find out if my batteries soon to come are as promised? How can I figure out if I have been scammed? They should be made out of A grade cells, but do I have to open one up to find out? My friend has been using his 4x10kW set for a month now with single Deye 15/12kW inverter and everything seems to work fine, but he's a noob like me. How would we know?

I'm planning to get 60kW of lifepos total. I have (actually Deyes haven't arrived yet) two hybrid Deye 15/12kW and two 15kW on-grid Bluesun inverters and a forklift 30kW lead acid battery already. I suppose that one Deye has to go with the lead acid battery and the other one gets lifepos as you can't mix the battery types. Now would it be wiser to sell these soon to be arrived 3x5kW lifepos and get 6x10kW instead as 10kW units are a little bit cheaper than 2x5kW? Or is it ok to buy one more 5kW plus 4x10kW and run them mixed with single Deye? I mean is it ok to mix 5kW with 10kW? At least Off-Grid Garage seemed to have problems running two different sized Seplos batteries. Also there's less cables/contacts using six batteries instead of eight, but is there any real reason not to use different sized batteries?

Tomorrow I'm planning to glue two more sets, so my panel installation may slowly progress again.

 

[shadowmaker]

Two set glued today and two sets ready for glueing tomorrow. First panel pallet used already, so needed to get the second one in. Driving forklift on crystal clear ice with water on top while carrying 1300kg and 3m tall pallet containing glass was scary as hell...

 

[galstaf]

Two set glued today and two sets ready for glueing tomorrow. First panel pallet used already, so needed to get the second one in. Driving forklift on crystal clear ice with water on top while carrying 1300kg and 3m tall pallet containing glass was scary as hell...

lol.. reminds me of when I was in Vaasa (Swedish fake Finland ;-) ) ... we went out to an island by boat and they had a huge wheeled excavator that must have weighed at least 12000kg out there that they had driven over the ice the previous winter to build their cabin. They had to rent it for a year because you have to wait for the winter refreeze to drive it back. Those guys were nuts!

(They got into a fight at a pub later that night with some Finnish Fins, and because they refuse to speak each others language they argued in English which was helpful for me. )


Anyways.. be careful! I hear there is global warming afoot.

 

[galstaf]

They should be made out of A grade cells, but do I have to open one up to find out? My friend has been using his 4x10kW set for a month now with single Deye 15/12kW inverter and everything seems to work fine, but he's a noob like me. How would we know?

Yep.. open it up is about all you can do, but again, they make fake grade A cells too. Short of capacity testing the cells you can never be sure.

Just torture load test it a few cycles.. I had my inverter set up running two toaster ovens, a 6kW resistance heater and an air compressor at the same time for a couple of hours and monitored the whole thing with a thermal camera. The thermal is good for catching bad wiring, etc. I messed up one of my high amperage cables and it got upto 220C very quickly, but cut it off before it melted the insulation!
Bad battery cells / components will also get really hot and will be easy to find with the thermal cam.

Ideally your wiring shouldn't get much above 30C under full load. I don't imagine it gets crazy hot in the summer there, so you can get away with a slightly smaller gauge wire if you have to. It gets up to 45C here in the summer, so I try to keep everything low/buried if possible.