My generator battery froze

[Supervstech]

If you have a Honda Gen, the 15A fuse may be your charging circuit and the 20A for control unit/WiFi, etc.
If your starter pulls 150A, running 60’ using 6ga conductors, the 24VDC would be approx 15VDC at the other end during cranking. You’d have to test it yourself. Then, no buck converter needed for the starter, although you may need one on that 20A circuit going to the ECU. Better yet, just keep a 1A trickle charger on it, keep connections clean and protected from corrosion. Replace battery every 4 years.

What many aren’t understanding is this…

Lead acid batteries don’t put out much power below -10F… another issue would be the generator motor oil will be thick in frigid temps… so, the weak battery, combined with the cold generator makes it difficult to start.

I think a heater is needed to solve the issue…

If the generator is so far from the 24V bank, it would need MASSIVE cables to crank a motor over. Likely need over a grand for the wire.

A better solution is to connect a MUCH larger starter battery. As long as it is fully charged, a larger CCA battery will sag less in arctic temps. But at some point, heat will be needed.
Put the generator in a better location, so it can be heated.

 

[welnat]

I agree with supertech.

Can you send us a photo of the generator enclosure - and also the rating plate on the generator?

What weight of engine oil are you running in generator?

Is the generator air cooled, or liquid cooled?

In very cold situations a combination of aids are often needed for generators to start, these could include:
- oil pan heater
- battery heater/blanket
- engine coolant for water cooled engine
- intake air pre-heat (once you give more info on your set up)
- fully synthetic engine oil
- insulation for battery and generator enclosure
- battery charger/maintainer

a bigger battery that is charged as mentioned before will overcome most of the problems....
the info on the generator size and type and space inside enclosure will help.

do you speak a different first language than french?

 

[Randij]

If you have a Honda Gen, the 15A fuse may be your charging circuit and the 20A for control unit/WiFi, etc.
If your starter pulls 150A, running 60’ using 6ga conductors, the 24VDC would be approx 15VDC at the other end during cranking. You’d have to test it yourself. Then, no buck converter needed for the starter, although you may need one on that 20A circuit going to the ECU. Better yet, just keep a 1A trickle charger on it, keep connections clean and protected from corrosion. Replace battery every 4 years.

Thank you. The problem is resoled with a battery blanket heater. The Honda generator does not have Wifi. Very good information. Thanks

 

[Randij]

A possible solution would be to attach a super ( sometimes called ultra) capacitor in parallel with the battery. It can deliver brief pulses of massive current independent of temperature. Your battery probably still has enough volts just no amps at the cold temperature.
But finding a quality, 16v dc, environmentally sealed super cap might be challenging and / or expensive. One could DIY one, but that is a whole other project at least as hard as DIY batteries.

this one might work, I can’t vouch for it

Amazon.com

Very interesting. Sounds like a good idea. Will do some more studying. Thank you!

 

[Randij]

What many aren’t understanding is this…

Lead acid batteries don’t put out much power below -10F… another issue would be the generator motor oil will be thick in frigid temps… so, the weak battery, combined with the cold generator makes it difficult to start.

I think a heater is needed to solve the issue…

If the generator is so far from the 24V bank, it would need MASSIVE cables to crank a motor over. Likely need over a grand for the wire.

A better solution is to connect a MUCH larger starter battery. As long as it is fully charged, a larger CCA battery will sag less in arctic temps. But at some point, heat will be needed.
Put the generator in a better location, so it can be heated.

Yes, your right abt the lead acid and this is the problem I’m dealing with. A battery blanket does work, but as an off grid homestead, power to the heater is valuable. A thermostat is in place so the heater does not turn on until it’s -14C and it’s working this way. I’m just trying to find an even more efficient way.
This is my concern , that the cables would have to be big, but then if the cables are bringing 24v to the generator before dropping the voltage to 12 volts, the cables wouldn’t be as large.
Thank you. Appreciate your feedback.
sadly the generator can’t be moved.

 

[Randij]

I agree with supertech.

Can you send us a photo of the generator enclosure - and also the rating plate on the generator?

What weight of engine oil are you running in generator?

Is the generator air cooled, or liquid cooled?

In very cold situations a combination of aids are often needed for generators to start, these could include:
- oil pan heater
- battery heater/blanket
- engine coolant for water cooled engine
- intake air pre-heat (once you give more info on your set up)
- fully synthetic engine oil
- insulation for battery and generator enclosure
- battery charger/maintainer

a bigger battery that is charged as mentioned before will overcome most of the problems....
the info on the generator size and type and space inside enclosure will help.

do you speak a different first language than french?

I agree with supertech too. The engine oil is synth 0W30 and is working perfectly, never too thick.
The generator is a Honda Eu7000is and is working fantastic. It‘s all in the starter battery. This is the weak point.
i‘m going to build an insulated enclosure for this fall and if that doesn’t work, I’ll buy a big battery that doesn’t fit in the generator as there is absolutely no room In the battery cavity.
Thank you again for you input, usefull,. I have tried many of your suggestions as well, except engine coolant and oil pan heater as the 0W30 is viscose. The key with an off grid home is to avoid current trickling as it waste valuable power.
I thing the enclosure might make the difference.it’s only a problem at the very very low temperatures.
thanks again.

 

[welnat]

Hi Randi, with the 7000 on wheels, can't you store it inside and then bring it outside for when you need to run it?
The 'automation' idea seems to be very high on your priority list. I can understand that. I would put 'always run when I want it to' as a higher priority on my list.

Could the generator be placed in a south facing direction and you make a small 'greenhouse' enclosure around the generator to warm it up? I.e. with tuff-ex or poly panels?
Why can't generator be moved? Read us in.
Is the generator in an enclosure already?
Is the honda battery in factory location?

Remove battery from factory location and put it in a super insulated box with the heating blanket?
Or parallels the large battery that you purchase with the honda factory battery, and put the large battery in a box with the heating blanket?

How often is the generator starting on a weekly average? How many times per day? What logic conditions exist that call for it to start? I.e. voltage threshold, or amperage draw?

 

[Supervstech]

Yes, your right abt the lead acid and this is the problem I’m dealing with. A battery blanket does work, but as an off grid homestead, power to the heater is valuable. A thermostat is in place so the heater does not turn on until it’s -14C and it’s working this way. I’m just trying to find an even more efficient way.
This is my concern , that the cables would have to be big, but then if the cables are bringing 24v to the generator before dropping the voltage to 12 volts, the cables wouldn’t be as large.
Thank you. Appreciate your feedback.
sadly the generator can’t be moved.

No matter what voltage you choose... 300A over that distance is going to be some BIG wire...

 

[Checkthisout]

Where are we getting the idea that a Honda EU7000is needs 300 amps to crank over? That's more Amps than like an F150 with a V8.

 

[Checkthisout]

I agree with supertech too. The engine oil is synth 0W30 and is working perfectly, never too thick.
The generator is a Honda Eu7000is and is working fantastic. It‘s all in the starter battery. This is the weak point.
i‘m going to build an insulated enclosure for this fall and if that doesn’t work, I’ll buy a big battery that doesn’t fit in the generator as there is absolutely no room In the battery cavity.
Thank you again for you input, usefull,. I have tried many of your suggestions as well, except engine coolant and oil pan heater as the 0W30 is viscose. The key with an off grid home is to avoid current trickling as it waste valuable power.
I thing the enclosure might make the difference.it’s only a problem at the very very low temperatures.
thanks again.

Do not bother with the oil. It's not going to make any difference.

You can use one of these to step up the voltage from your house battery : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Q9QG5C4/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_XYT99BHNMQTH1WH4K12Q

And then an equal wattage reducer at the generator to step down the 48V to 12V at the generator.

I would put it in parallel with a relay and generator battery so when you turn the key or whatever to start the gen, power is fed to a relay that closes and supplies power to the starter from the step down transformer. This keeps the two systems electrically separate at all times except when cranking.

This way the batteries in the house are only assisting the generator battery. You can keep your conductors between the two structures smaller with the stepped up voltage.

You also get the side benefit of having 12V available at the gen shed for some fancy lights.

 

[Randij]

Do not bother with the oil. It's not going to make any difference.

You can use one of these to step up the voltage from your house battery : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Q9QG5C4/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_XYT99BHNMQTH1WH4K12Q

And then an equal wattage reducer at the generator to step down the 48V to 12V at the generator.

I would put it in parallel with a relay and generator battery so when you turn the key or whatever to start the gen, power is fed to a relay that closes and supplies power to the starter from the step down transformer. This keeps the two systems electrically separate at all times except when cranking.

This way the batteries in the house are only assisting the generator battery. You can keep your conductors between the two structures smaller with the stepped up voltage.

You also get the side benefit of having 12V available at the gen shed for some fancy lights.

Thank you very constructive!

 

[Randij]

Where are we getting the idea that a Honda EU7000is needs 300 amps to crank over? That's more Amps than like an F150 with a V8.

Yes, i thin its only using 15A because of the fuse in it.? Haven’t verify this yet.

 

[Checkthisout]

Yes, i thin its only using 15A because of the fuse in it.? Haven’t verify this yet.

There won't be a fuse between the starter and battery.

There should be one between the battery and key switch. That is probably the 15 amp fuse.

 

[Randij]

It w

Hi Randi, with the 7000 on wheels, can't you store it inside and then bring it outside for when you need to run it?
The 'automation' idea seems to be very high on your priority list. I can understand that. I would put 'always run when I want it to' as a higher priority on my list.

Could the generator be placed in a south facing direction and you make a small 'greenhouse' enclosure around the generator to warm it up? I.e. with tuff-ex or poly panels?
Why can't generator be moved? Read us in.
Is the generator in an enclosure already?
Is the honda battery in factory location?

Remove battery from factory location and put it in a super insulated box with the heating blanket?
Or parallels the large battery that you purchase with the honda factory battery, and put the large battery in a box with the heating blanket?

How often is the generator starting on a weekly average? How many times per day? What logic conditions exist that call for it to start? I.e. voltage threshold, or amperage draw?

It weighs a ton! And it usually runs automatically at night. My house is off grid, I never know when I need power thus the autonation. South facing is an excellent idea, I will be building an insulated box for it. Hasn been a problem in 3 years. The generator is on standby all the time, and it weighs a lot and has wire etc. attached under ground and that is why it cannot move. The battery is factory and I’ve tried another. But went back to the factory as it’s better.
It is in a heatEd blanket and is working, just trying to reduce this power consumption (on a thermostat) and yes a parallel 2nd battery is something I’m thinking about.
Generator runs about 1.5 hrs a day in winter and not at all in summer.
it used voltage sensor to turn on and works well.
Thank you for you suggestions. Well appreciated.

 

[Randij]

Ok, so describe what froze on the battery...
If it was fully charged, it wouldn't have actually frozen.
Do you mean it didn't have enough power to crank your generator?

Doesn’t have enough crank amps at cold temperature.
I parallel another battery and off it goes
The battery warmer works. Just trying to avoid it because the house is off grid.
Thanks

 

[Checkthisout]

It w

It weighs a ton! And it usually runs automatically at night. My house is off grid, I never know when I need power thus the autonation. South facing is an excellent idea, I will be building an insulated box for it. Hasn been a problem in 3 years. The generator is on standby all the time, and it weighs a lot and has wire etc. attached under ground and that is why it cannot move. The battery is factory and I’ve tried another. But went back to the factory as it’s better.
It is in a heatEd blanket and is working, just trying to reduce this power consumption (on a thermostat) and yes a parallel 2nd battery is something I’m thinking about.
Generator runs about 1.5 hrs a day in winter and not at all in summer.
it used voltage sensor to turn on and works well.
Thank you for you suggestions. Well appreciated.

Off topic.

How does your automatic start tie into the generator?

 

[welnat]

Ok, very interesting. So you have a system configured a certain way and you need to work within that.
It needs to stay outside as it starts so frequently.
Does that 1.5 hour run time happen at approximately the same time each day? Could you set a timer then, for an hour ahead of when the generator normally starts in order to bring up the temp only when you need it?
What time of the day is that 1.5 hour run time usually?

Do you have enough solar during the day if it is sunny? Is there excess? Could that small green house shelter that you make with poly like this or 'tuff ex' panels (you can order through homehardware) be enough to warm some solar mass (55 gallon drum) beside the generator (and ground insulated with some 2 inch foam)

Why do you think this started happening after the last 3 years went fine?
How old is the current battery?
How many feet away is the nearest heated space?
How do you heat your off grid palace?

 

[Randij]

I have a ME Automatic controller it plugs into the generator when the inverter senses below 25.2V, it sends signal to the generator to start and times out, when the generator starts up it sends a signal back to the ME-AGS to tell it it’s running and resets the ME-AGS. Works great!

 

[Checkthisout]

I have a ME Automatic controller it plugs into the generator when the inverter senses below 25.2V, it sends signal to the generator to start and times out, when the generator starts up it sends a signal back to the ME-AGS to tell it it’s running and resets the ME-AGS. Works great!

Do you know where/how it hooks to the Gen? Does it just take the place of turning the key to start? A factory remote unit etc?

 

[welnat]

Do you have a clamp meter you could measure the amps drawn when you manually start the generator from cold to measure peak amps?
And like checkthisout says, how are the connections on the device that starts the generator?