my "unsolvable problem"

[olmz]

i have a fifth wheel into which I have just "dropped in" 4 battleborn 12 volt, 100aH batteries. All batteries have been individually tested for taking and holding a charge (victron ip65) outside of the trailer and all test perfectly. indeed, I have 8 batteries although only using 4 in the bank in question, and trying all 8 at one time or another (two groups of 4) the batteries reveal no problems with individual charging and holding charges.

I am old and unwell, so I am stationary now, and on shore power 100% of the time, although fighting power outages and needing this all to work for critical reasons.

to do the trouble shooting on the problem as outlined below, all solar is switched off...meaning the array and the midnite 150 that controls it, so no solar part of my system is involved at the moment.

the trailer has a magnum 2812 inverter/charger, which also tests perfectly. in the process of trying to run this problem down, I have also tried a different 2812 which is also running perfectly and it has not changed what I am here to figure out. I am sure that the magnums and penals (have tested two and both work fine.

the firmware on both the 2812s and the magnum panel are current.

also, all charge cycles are taking place at the right voltages....for example, absorb at 14.4....and float at 13.6.

all wiring came from a highly recommended supplier, batterycables usa, to include that they connected all the lugs, etc.....and I am CERTAIN that wire sizes and lengths are not at any issue (these are wired as battleborn directs on their site and there is no question about the method of wiring in parallel for 12 volts.

the problem:

as soon as the charge cycle flips out of absorb to either float or "silent" (depending on how we set the magum panel...we have tried testing both ways)......................the voltage drops from a full reading (for these batteries that is.13.6 or even higher)...so quickly such that it hits 13.1 or 13.2 volts within a half hour...and flips right back into another full charge cycle.

nothing we know to do has changed this......and being on shore power full time, I cannot imagine what 12 volt draws there might be as things are, that would cause such a precipitous drop...and in any event, I have lived in this trailer for over 7 years and am unaware of any issues that would cause this to happen.

I am, indeed, 75 and not well...and trust that I could have done a better job this time in explaining my issue....but hope it is clear enough for someone to help me.

I live full time in this RV and even as I am on shore power, I am also in a place where power goes off frequently enough to be a factor.

I thank all, in advance, for any help.

oliver

 

[SparkyJJO]

What is reporting the voltage drop?
What is the voltage reading at the battery terminals with a digital volt meter, when the drop happens?

 

[olmz]

first, thanks so much for your fast reply.

i have two ways to see the voltage inside the trailer. one is the magnum panel (again, and at risk of repeating, i have tried two mangum panels and neither has any effect on the issue. the second way is that I have a "seelelvel" liquid measurement system in this trailer....to passively measure black and gray water levels. it happens to also have a button to see the battery voltage in the system and is always the same as the magnum panels.

lastly, until I disonnected it to ensure that it was not part of the problem, I also have a bogart engineering device which measures voltage and also gives some fancy calculations about available current and so on.....it has had no effect on this issue, but is now off line, anyway.

I have also measure the voltage at the inverters terminals themselves, and those readings mirror what the magnum panels are saying at any given time.

I don't recall having actually measure the 2812 right after these voltage drops, but have been assuming anyway, that insofar as the panel and voltage readings were the same when we did measure both, that there was no issue there.

Due to my infirmities and my tech is also unwell, I have not, now that you mention it, measure any battery right after the voltate drops, but if you think it wise...and I can see why you would...wish I had thought of that.....i can certainly measure one or two of them that are close to the compartment door....not sure my body will handle the ones further back.

I am guess that when you say "terminals" you mean all four, correct?

again, THANKS SO MUCH!

 

[olmz]

PS i am hoping that measuring battery terminals as soon as the voltage does this drop, that there is no need to unwire them from their compartment.

if it must be that means I have to wait for someone else to do it, but I can get it done. if the measurement can simply be while all is as, that I can do.

again, thanks.

 

[olmz]

PPS for the record, I have tried all possible settings, both as "custom" on the magnums and preset for lion batteries.

i am POSITIVE that the settings have been correct for the BBs that I have (I know that many may use that word "positive" and be wrong, and while I am not free of human error, I am POSITIVE.

 

[TomC4306]

If you are only charging to 13.6 volts, you're not fully charging the batteries.
3.4 v per cell is not high enough.

 

[olmz]

i am not only charging to 13.6 volts. sorry if i did not make that clear.

all settings for the magnum to do its job are correct, including abosrb charging at 14.4 (and even 14.6 at BB's direction) as well as proper bulk.

it is only after all that, when the system goes into silent mode, that the voltage ends up at 13.6 (which BB says is fully charged, although that number can be higher too) that the precipitous drop takes place....every time.

many thanks.

 

[Doggydogworld]

It might help if you post some pics of your configuration and the screen readings before and during the problem occurring. A lot of people here are visual problem solvers who do better with pics than paragraphs of text.

 

[SparkyJJO]

I am going to presume (for the moment) that all the batteries are reaching the same voltage. Measuring one of them (for now) should suffice. What I am aiming to do is to see if the voltage at the inverter matches the voltage at the battery. If not, then there is some connection issue someplace causing voltage drop. If it is the same, then we're likely ok on the connections and need to find why the batteries are appearing to slump so fast.

 

[olmz]

It might help if you post some pics of your configuration and the screen readings before and during the problem occurring. A lot of people here are visual problem solvers who do better with pics than paragraphs of text.

that's a great idea and this weekend, if not tomorrow, I will do just that. thank you for the suggestion!

 

[olmz]

I am going to presume (for the moment) that all the batteries are reaching the same voltage. Measuring one of them (for now) should suffice. What I am aiming to do is to see if the voltage at the inverter matches the voltage at the battery. If not, then there is some connection issue someplace causing voltage drop. If it is the same, then we're likely ok on the connections and need to find why the batteries are appearing to slump so fast.

noted with continuing thanks..to you and all. I am inferring that leaving them all connected but simply putting a VOM on one set of terminals is fine in terms of your goals for me. right?

 

[olmz]

I am going to presume (for the moment) that all the batteries are reaching the same voltage. Measuring one of them (for now) should suffice. What I am aiming to do is to see if the voltage at the inverter matches the voltage at the battery. If not, then there is some connection issue someplace causing voltage drop. If it is the same, then we're likely ok on the connections and need to find why the batteries are appearing to slump so fast.

also, presuming, again, that leaving all connected is not a problem, at what point in the charge cycle do you want to see voltage measurements?
after it goes to silent (or if i tell the magnum 2812 to go to "float" after absorb, rather than "silent"...the drop in voltage takes place in either instance), after the precipitous drop about a half hour later, or at some other time during the preceeding charging?

 

[S Davis]

Are you sure the battery BMS on one or more isn’t tripped leaving you with less than four batteries operational, I would start by disconnecting and checking voltage on each battery.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Measure a few times at one of the battery terminals (pick one and use the same one each time). Measure it when charge completes and it goes silent or whatever it is, and again when the drop happens.

 

[olmz]

wilco.

thank you so much.

 

[olmz]

Are you sure the battery BMS on one or more isn’t tripped leaving you with less than four batteries operational, I would start by disconnecting and checking voltage on each battery.

thank you.

every single battery was checked beforehand...and I mean weeks....using a victron ip65...for accepting full charges, normal charge phases and so on.
in fact, while this array has 4 batteries, I have another group of 4 which I have been holding for expansion of my solar system.

when this problem cropped up, I took out the 4 that were in there, and put the other group of 4 in, and that is what is in there now.

none of the symptoms changed.

so, while I guess it is possible that something strange is going on in what is a total of 8 batteries, I am sure hoping, anyway, that there is no such thing.

I thank you for the suggestion as I am no expert, but especially not being in great health, before I start moving a couple of hundred pounds of batteries around (also if you don't have 12 volts available to the magnum units, they will shut down completely, and you won't even have shore power).....................I am hoping that something will pop up, thanks to such as the good folks here, yourself included.

thanks again. have a great night

 

[olmz]

Are you sure the battery BMS on one or more isn’t tripped leaving you with less than four batteries operational, I would start by disconnecting and checking voltage on each battery.

ps as you may have seen in another reply, here, I am going to start checking voltages on one or more batteries at a couple of times in and after the charge cycle. I am hoping that reveals whatever this is before I have to take them all out and start again.

indeed, I realize that despite how they look and from whom they came, it might even be some odd problem with one of the wires, although the batteries are all apparently accepting a full charged before they start dropping.

anyway, I am staying here until, so whatever this is will be seen by you, as well...and it will be helpful for us all.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Was the bogart trimetric showing a full charge percentage wise? The bogart if configured properly and wired with good connections is probably your most accurate measuring device in your system. Much more than the magnum BMK if you are using one of those. I have magnum inverters and bogart trimetric on both of my systems. One for the house and one for the camper. The trimetric comes within a one or same percent of the BMS reading and the magnum is always farther out in comparison on both systems .

You are. Charging to 3.6/ cell and then floating at 3.4/ cell. Does the inverter swap from shore to battery when this happens? 3.4 with a long enough absorb will fully charge without going to 3.6 so anything above 3.4 would be a surface charge at least for most DIY packs and would quickly drop to resting voltage if you applied a load to it just the passive current of the magnum at 10 watts on battery saver search would knock of the surface charge pretty quick. Note I use DIY packs and have no experience with the Battle Birn batteries.

 

[olmz]

i have a fifth wheel into which I have just "dropped in" 4 battleborn 12 volt, 100aH batteries. All batteries have been individually tested for taking and holding a charge (victron ip65) outside of the trailer and all test perfectly. indeed, I have 8 batteries although only using 4 in the bank in question, and trying all 8 at one time or another (two groups of 4) the batteries reveal no problems with individual charging and holding charges.

I am old and unwell, so I am stationary now, and on shore power 100% of the time, although fighting power outages and needing this all to work for critical reasons.

to do the trouble shooting on the problem as outlined below, all solar is switched off...meaning the array and the midnite 150 that controls it, so no solar part of my system is involved at the moment.

the trailer has a magnum 2812 inverter/charger, which also tests perfectly. in the process of trying to run this problem down, I have also tried a different 2812 which is also running perfectly and it has not changed what I am here to figure out. I am sure that the magnums and penals (have tested two and both work fine.

the firmware on both the 2812s and the magnum panel are current.

also, all charge cycles are taking place at the right voltages....for example, absorb at 14.4....and float at 13.6.

all wiring came from a highly recommended supplier, batterycables usa, to include that they connected all the lugs, etc.....and I am CERTAIN that wire sizes and lengths are not at any issue (these are wired as battleborn directs on their site and there is no question about the method of wiring in parallel for 12 volts.

the problem:

as soon as the charge cycle flips out of absorb to either float or "silent" (depending on how we set the magum panel...we have tried testing both ways)......................the voltage drops from a full reading (for these batteries that is.13.6 or even higher)...so quickly such that it hits 13.1 or 13.2 volts within a half hour...and flips right back into another full charge cycle.

nothing we know to do has changed this......and being on shore power full time, I cannot imagine what 12 volt draws there might be as things are, that would cause such a precipitous drop...and in any event, I have lived in this trailer for over 7 years and am unaware of any issues that would cause this to happen.

I am, indeed, 75 and not well...and trust that I could have done a better job this time in explaining my issue....but hope it is clear enough for someone to help me.

I live full time in this RV and even as I am on shore power, I am also in a place where power goes off frequently enough to be a factor.

I thank all, in advance, for any help.

oliver

Hello all,

I was asked by one poster here to post photos of the present wiring, so here are 5 shots....the way things are right now and have been through this problem......of the batteries, wiring in the compartment. I hope this are sufficient but if not, kindly let me know.

I have also sent these shots on to others not on this forum and so far, all have found no problems with the wiring, and in any event, this is how we were told to wire them when we started.

I do have two victron busbars and after I get done with the voltage measurements and as soon as I can get a tech here, we will hook them up and take pictures as well.

the consensus is that the busbar will likely not fix the precipitous voltage drop I am reporting on every charge cycle.....kindly keep in mind that every one of these batteries tests perfectly well on its own.....individually charged before putting them on line, with a victron IP65....all charged properly and ended up at voltages that were appropriate...and I remain ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that all bukl, absorb and float charges...are correct as "custom" settings in the magnum 2812 for these BBs, per, indeed, even Battleborn's own site..

as you will see in pohoto labeled 0011.jpg, there is a lot going on on that terminal, and that one spot is the main reason we are going to try busbars and simplify things at that terminal...what a pleasant surprise it will be if that fixes this, although it would still beg the question as to "why".

i can also see how busbars will simplify all this in any event, and presuming they will not cause any resistance problems of their own, I intend to leave them there and just hook up this and that to the busbars.

anyway, again, thanks SO MUCH for all your brainpowers!

oliver

Either tonight or tomorrow, I will take voltage measurements as requested here, as well.......and kindly stand by for those.

I continue to appreciate everyone's help and time.

 

[olmz]

Hello all,

I was asked by one poster here to post photos of the present wiring, so here are 5 shots....the way things are right now and have been through this problem......of the batteries, wiring in the compartment. I hope this are sufficient but if not, kindly let me know.

I have also sent these shots on to others not on this forum and so far, all have found no problems with the wiring, and in any event, this is how we were told to wire them when we started.

I do have two victron busbars and after I get done with the voltage measurements and as soon as I can get a tech here, we will hook them up and take pictures as well.

the consensus is that the busbar will likely not fix the precipitous voltage drop I am reporting on every charge cycle.....kindly keep in mind that every one of these batteries tests perfectly well on its own.....individually charged before putting them on line, with a victron IP65....all charged properly and ended up at voltages that were appropriate...and I remain ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that all bukl, absorb and float charges...are correct as "custom" settings in the magnum 2812 for these BBs, per, indeed, even Battleborn's own site..

as you will see in pohoto labeled 0011.jpg, there is a lot going on on that terminal, and that one spot is the main reason we are going to try busbars and simplify things at that terminal...what a pleasant surprise it will be if that fixes this, although it would still beg the question as to "why".

i can also see how busbars will simplify all this in any event, and presuming they will not cause any resistance problems of their own, I intend to leave them there and just hook up this and that to the busbars.

anyway, again, thanks SO MUCH for all your brainpowers!

oliver

Either tonight or tomorrow, I will take voltage measurements as requested here, as well.......and kindly stand by for those.

I continue to appreciate everyone's help and time.

ps 0011 and 0014 are, as you will probably realize, the same spots in the array, with one closer up.