New Lux Power LXP-LB-US 12k / GSL-H-12KLV-US with 200A AC Passthrough Current (US Market)

[Luxpower_Gilbert]

Is the AC Coupling issue from a month or so fixed?
Also, what about the paralleling issue? Can you parallel 10 units now? Trying to figure out which of the features they advertised are still not working?

Ac coupling on the gen port only works when the inverter is not connected to the grid, ac coupling on the load side seem to works on my inverter, I believe the newer firmware only can parallel 4 inverter for now….

 

[Not Aerosmith]

Ac coupling on the gen port only works when the inverter is not connected to the grid, ac coupling on the load side seem to works on my inverter, I believe the newer firmware only can parallel 4 inverter for now….

Could I use my 2 GSL inverters and batteries as an automatic solar generator vs a gas generator? Using a transfer switch, the GSL inverters are never connected to the grid and only available when needed during a power outage. I bought two GSL inverters and would like to get some use from them without needing to be a full time babysitter or worrying about them injuring someone repairing power lines.

When the grid is up, my existing 18 KW solar panels and 15 KW of GT inverters would continue to operate with the grid and house load. So far, it has been 3 years of operation without any issues. The GSL inverters don't sound like they are ready to provide the same level of service. but maybe in the future when the GT inverters start having problems, the GSL inverters will be ready to take over.

When the grid is down. The transfer switch would connect the house load to the two GSL hybrid inverters with batteries and would be totally disconnected from the grid. The existing GT inverters system could be parallel connected to the emergency power by AC couple to the gen port on the GSL hybrid inverters.

 

[fromport]

Could I use my 2 GSL inverters and batteries as an automatic solar generator vs a gas generator? Using a transfer switch, the GSL inverters are never connected to the grid and only available when needed during a power outage. I bought two GSL inverters and would like to get some use from them without needing to be a full time babysitter or worrying about them injuring someone repairing power lines.

When the grid is up, my existing 18 KW solar panels and 15 KW of GT inverters would continue to operate with the grid and house load. So far, it has been 3 years of operation without any issues. The GSL inverters don't sound like they are ready to provide the same level of service. but maybe in the future when the GT inverters start having problems, the GSL inverters will be ready to take over.

When the grid is down. The transfer switch would connect the house load to the two GSL hybrid inverters with batteries and would be totally disconnected from the grid. The existing GT inverters system could be parallel connected to the emergency power by AC couple to the gen port on the GSL hybrid inverters.

No, don't even think about that.

A conventional generator is able to handle abrupt load changes, that is what is made for. Normally your home load doesn't care about a few spikes or cycles out of the ordinary frequency range when the generator adjusts to the new load situation.

A hybrid inverter with batteries is not a 1:1 replacement for a conventional gen-set.

Your new GSL inverter(s) are made to be center of your home grid:
- grid tied
- ups with batteries
- AC couple existing inverters.

Your existing 5kW Fronius Prima are not 1741AS (freq shifting) capable.
So the grid frequency is either "within" or "without" spec.
within -> takes 5 minutes to help
without -> switches off (probably < 58 Hz or > 62 Hz)

If you would put 50% of your solar panels DC connected to your new GSL inverter(s) and then AC couple the other 50% with the old fronius, it still wouldn't be "smooth" switching on/off but at least the inverters would be able to do their work.
Best thing would be (imo) to replace all your primo's with the new GSL's.
What is keeping you from doing it ?
Why not start with 1 GSL replacing 1 primo and see how it responds ?

 

[Not Aerosmith]

No, don't even think about that.

Why not start with 1 GSL replacing 1 primo and see how it responds ?

Hi fromport, Nice to know that you are still around looking out for people. I always appreciate your knowledge and insights.

My two GSL inverters have been under the air hockey table, since I have received them. I have been away, so tonight, I read the last several pages of posts. I was hoping that maybe in the last 6 weeks that things had improved more. After reading various posts, it just sounds like these inverters still have too many issues for me and require way too much time. I was trying to find away to use the hybrid inverters without losing the reliability of the GT inverters that I have enjoyed for over 3 years.

My thoughts were that the 30 KWH of batteries would power the house providing power to match the consumption during a power outage, which usually fluctuates between 3KWH-5KWH. The 15 KW GT inverters would simply come on and off as necessary to charge the batteries. In the course of a month, the GSL inverters would probably only operate a total of some 16 hours with the longest outage about 7 hours. If I'm only using the GSL inverters during power outages and the GSL inverters can never feed the grid, I was hoping to avoid most issues, and concerns expressed on the DIY forum.

When I bought the GSL inverters, it was mainly for insurance against a major power outage, so my family would have some power for necessities..

 

[fromport]

After reading various posts, it just sounds like these inverters still have too many issues for me and require way too much time. I was trying to find away to use the hybrid inverters without losing the reliability of the GT inverters that I have enjoyed for over 3 years.

I think you are getting intimidated a little too easy.
"if it would be easy, everybody would do it"
I am pretty sure your new GSL are as reliable as the primo 5.0

My thoughts were that the 30 KW of batteries would power the house providing power to match the consumption during a power outage, which usually fluctuates between 3KW-5KW. The 15 KW GT inverters would simply come on and off as necessary to charge the batteries.

And that would be okay: just use the batteries to power the house and use the grid to charge the batteries.
That would be a 1:1 exchange of your regular genset.
But in your previous posting you said you also wanted to AC couple your primo's and that would (imo) be a bad idea.
Just like you don't AC couple your primo's with your current generator.

In the course of a month, the GSL inverters would probably only operate a total of some 16 hours with the longest outage about 7 hours. If I'm only using the GSL inverters during power outages and the GSL inverters can never feed the grid,

Why not ?
your current primo's feed the grid.
Your utility company really doesn't know/see the difference if a primo or your GSL is backfeeding to the grid !

I was hoping to avoid most issues, and concerns expressed on the DIY forum.
When I bought the GSL inverters, it was mainly for insurance against a major power outage, so my family would have some power for necessities..

The concerns that were shared have not much in common with your setup.

Again: replace one of your primo's with one of the GSL hybrid.
Hookup the solar & batteries.
Hookup a (temp) minimum load panel behind your GSL to see what happens when you have a power outage.
Get used to it to the point where you trust it, and then permanently install your 2 GSL's in parallel to feed your whole house when the power goes out.

 

[elusivesd]

I completely agree with everything @fromport has already mentioned. It is also highly unlikely (aside for a one-off defective unit) for the GSL inverter to backfeed during a grid-down scenario for not just one, but multiple reasons I won't get into here.

Here's an out of the box thought for the ultra paranoid - hook up a shunt-trip breaker in-line between the inverter and grid. When voltage is applied to the shunt-trip coils, the breaker will shut down, requiring a manual reset. Combined with a solution to detect a grid-down scenario (or any other logic, such as backfeed), this can be an additional layer of "protection", if only for peace of mind. These breakers can be acquired pretty cheaply on eBay if needed.

 

[fromport]

It is also highly unlikely (aside for a one-off defective unit) for the GSL inverter to backfeed during a grid-down scenario for not just one, but multiple reasons I won't get into here.

*IMPOSSIBLE*
if it wants to generate power to the house it has to open the relay to the grid .
It _can not_ back feed to the grid in case of power outage.

Here's an out of the box thought for the ultra paranoid - hook up a shunt-trip breaker in-line between the inverter and grid. When voltage is applied to the shunt-trip coils, the breaker will shut down, requiring a manual reset. Combined with a solution to detect a grid-down scenario (or any other logic, such as backfeed), this can be an additional layer of "protection", if only for peace of mind. These breakers can be acquired pretty cheaply on eBay if needed.

I have the same inverter and it simply opens the relay and generates power to the house, I tested it.
Not going to endanger any lineman trying to restore the grid.

 

[elusivesd]

*IMPOSSIBLE*
if it wants to generate power to the house it has to open the relay to the grid .
It _can not_ back feed to the grid in case of power outage.

I have the same inverter and it simply opens the relay and generates power to the house, I tested it.
Not going to endanger any lineman trying to restore the grid.

This is why I said unlikely, but there is still that 0.01% chance in 1 specific scenario which likely does not apply to anyone here, or anywhere. So, nearly impossible.

Scenario, all must be true:
- Relay contacts welded stuck (extremely rare, but possible w/ high-current arcing, spring/metal failure, etc.). This will prevent disengagement of the relay from the grid.
- The only person behind your local service transformer, so if the grid goes down, you're not trying to power the entire neighborhood.
- Grid failure occurs between said transformer and the rest of the grid. Transformer becomes a live step-up to anyone working on the other end.
- Apparent load between inverter and whatever is left of the grid somehow does not appear to be a dead short, which in normal cases, will trip your breaker.

Of course, I have also tested various grid-down scenarios during my installation, which works as expected. For all practical purposes, yes, it is effectively impossible. However, in the above scenario, it is theoretically possible, though also extremely improbable.

 

[fromport]

This is why I said unlikely, but there is still that 0.01% chance in 1 specific scenario which likely does not apply to anyone here, or anywhere. So, nearly impossible.

In case the relay doesn't open, there will be so many homes sucking up the power (unless his connection to the grid was cut) that the inverter will not have enough power to raise the voltage to anything dangerous.
These units have UL certification.
I think it will be way way way smaller than your 0.01% ;-)

Scenario, all must be true:
- Relay contacts welded stuck (extremely rare, but possible w/ high-current arcing, spring/metal failure, etc.). This will prevent disengagement of the relay from the grid.
- The only person behind your local service transformer, so if the grid goes down, you're not trying to power the entire neighborhood.
- Grid failure occurs between said transformer and the rest of the grid. Transformer becomes a live step-up to anyone working on the other end.
- Apparent load between inverter and whatever is left of the grid somehow does not appear to be a dead short, which in normal cases, will trip your breaker.

Of course, I have also tested various grid-down scenarios during my installation, which works as expected. For all practical purposes, yes, it is effectively impossible. However, in the above scenario, it is theoretically possible, though also extremely improbable.

Agreed! but you probably have more chance of getting hit by a lightning strike than the above scenario hitting (or winning the megamillionlottery )

 

[Not Aerosmith]

I think you are getting intimidated a little too easy.

My thoughts were that the 30 KW of batteries would power the house providing power to match the consumption during a power outage, which usually fluctuates between 3KW-5KW. The 15 KW GT inverters would simply come on and off as necessary to charge the batteries.

And that would be okay: just use the batteries to power the house and use the grid to charge the batteries.
That would be a 1:1 exchange of your regular genset.
But in your previous posting you said you also wanted to AC couple your primo's and that would (imo) be a bad idea.
Just like you don't AC couple your primo's with your current generator.

GRV0423 said, "AC coupling on the gen port only works when the inverter is not connected to the grid".

My intention was that the GSL inverters and batteries are never connected to the grid. The GT inverters are connected in parallel to both the grid and AC couple to the GSL inverters gen port input. The GSL inverters and batteries only see the house load during a power outage and turn on and off the AC couple GT inverters as needed to charge the batteries between high/low setpoints. Normally, the GT inverters are maximizing output to the grid and the GSL inverters and batteries see no load. The automatic transfer switch connects the house load to the grid and only to the hybrid inverters during a power outage.

Yes, you are right, I'm easily intimidated by negative posts. It much safer and easier to keep what works and only gamble that the GSL inverters and batteries may provide power during outages. If not, I'm no worse off, except for the wasted dollars. Assuming that I didn't some how manage to destroy the GT inverters in the process.

I don't have your DIY expertise, so what might takes you hours to fix may take me days or longer to fix

 

[Not Aerosmith]

It finally dawn on me that there is at least one issue. When the GSL inverter provides backup power that the GT inverters will see this as power from the grid and maximize solar power output to the grid that is disconnected causing major damage. Probably a fix and probably too complicated to be failsafe.

 

[elusivesd]

My intention was that the GSL inverters and batteries are never connected to the grid. The GT inverters are connected in parallel to both the grid and AC couple to the GSL inverters gen port input. The GSL inverters and batteries only see the house load during a power outage and turn on and off the AC couple GT inverters as needed to charge the batteries between high/low setpoints. Normally, the GT inverters are maximizing output to the grid and the GSL inverters and batteries see no load.

I understand the intent, though behavior will likely not be as expected at best, and potential damage at worst. From what I understand about the inverter internals so far, the only difference between the generator and grid port is which way the internal relay is flipped. If you want the GSL inverter to control when your GT inverters are active, they need to be connected to the EPS port.

The automatic transfer switch connects the house load to the grid and only to the hybrid inverters during a power outage.

If the desire is to use an external ATS anyway, why not connect the GT and GSL inverters as documented, and utilize the ATS as a failsafe isolator between GSL and grid? It seems like this will do what you are looking for? Or am I missing something?
PV => GT => GSL (via EPS port. House load also in parallel on EPS port) => ATS (isolate GSL when grid down) => Grid
Though, this is redundant. The GSL has a built in ATS which is what isolates GRID from EPS

It finally dawn on me that there is at least one issue. When the GSL inverter provides backup power that the GT inverters will see this as power from the grid and maximize solar power output to the grid that is disconnected causing major damage. Probably a fix and probably too complicated to be failsafe.

Right, which is why existing PV needs to be connected to the EPS port. Power will be maximized from GT to power loads/charge batteries as needed, but when batteries are full, GSL will frequency shift to shut down connected GT (AC coupled) inverters.

Edit: Just to add another angle for consideration - when no PV is connected to GSL, it behaves as a glorified UPS + ATS. Electrically, the grid and EPS ports are linked while the grid is available. There also won't be any backfeed, assuming appropriate settings are applied. When the grid drops, EPS and Grid ports are no longer linked due to internal ATS doing its thing. IMO, far more reliable than most, if not all, external ATS due to specific frequency/voltage/timing requirements which must be met before the inverter is allowed to reconnect the grid.

 

[Not Aerosmith]

Edit: Just to add another angle for consideration - when no PV is connected to GSL, it behaves as a glorified UPS + ATS. Electrically, the grid and EPS ports are linked while the grid is available. There also won't be any backfeed, assuming appropriate settings are applied. When the grid drops, EPS and Grid ports are no longer linked due to internal ATS doing its thing. IMO, far more reliable than most, if not all, external ATS due to specific frequency/voltage/timing requirements which must be met before the inverter is allowed to reconnect the grid.

You and fromport are right. Sorry that it took me so long to realize it and stop focusing on the negative posts.

The GSL inverters are actually programmed to do exactly what I'm trying to do without an additional automatic transfer switch. When there is no power outage, the bypass relay is letting the existing system work as if the GSL inverters are not even there. When there is a power outage, the GT inverters and the GSL inverters relay disconnect from the grid, and the GSL inverter and batteries act as an UPS. When the batteries need charging during a power outage, the GSL can shift the frequency to activate the GT inverters to charge the batteries till they are full. If the batteries need charging when there is no power outage, the GSL will act as a battery charger with power from either the GT inverters or the grid. It seems that the 2 GSL inverters can do everything that I want now plus has the ability to provide 24 KW of additional power from future solar panels.

 

[summit]

Here's an out of the box thought for the ultra paranoid - hook up a shunt-trip breaker in-line between the inverter and grid. When voltage is applied to the shunt-trip coils, the breaker will shut down, requiring a manual reset. Combined with a solution to detect a grid-down scenario (or any other logic, such as backfeed), this can be an additional layer of "protection", if only for peace of mind. These breakers can be acquired pretty cheaply on eBay if needed.

I've caused plenty of smoking events so am paranoid. Please send an ebay link to the shunt-trip coil mentioned. Thanks much

 

[elusivesd]

I've caused plenty of smoking events so am paranoid. Please send an ebay link to the shunt-trip coil mentioned. Thanks much

Of course! Use the search term "ABB SACE S3 shunt trip". Here is one example which happens to include proper photos, though pricing is not the best - https://www.ebay.com/itm/203597758677 (For example only, I have no affiliation to this seller!)

A few tips when searching for a shunt trip breaker

• Verify w/ photos and/or confirming with the seller if the shunt trip is actually included. General rule of thumb - if no coil wiring is visible, assume the breaker is not shunt trip equipped.
• The best deals can be found with very high amperage breakers. If you can find a match to your system size, great! If not, don't worry about it. Treat the breaker solely as a disconnect (via switch or shunt trip), and NOT as an over-current protection device. You will need a breaker of appropriate amperage in series elsewhere on the line.
• Verify the coil voltage (+ current) required. 24V appears to be common on ABB breakers. Other voltage ratings exist, so make sure you understand what this means, and have the ability to trigger at the labeled voltage when the time comes.
• Have a plan on what will be the trigger for the shunt trip. In my case, I have an ESP32 which monitors for abnormalities. Upon detection, a relay is triggered, which powers a buck converter from my 48V battery bank, providing the 24V needed for the shunt trip. You have the option of adding this later, but just keep in mind that the shunt trip does nothing unless circuitry is available to trigger it when needed.
• Last but not least, try searching for known shunt-trip breakers by the model number, and verify with photos if it is shunt trip equipped or not. In many cases, the seller is not even aware of what this feature is, and is listing solely based on label info. This is how I got mine, new in sealed box, for less than half the price of the next available 'used' breaker.

I advise anyone looking to go this route to first check out a few youtube vids at the minimum to get a better understanding of how this works (and with the ABB breakers, the physical size of these things!)

 

[Echo8Wang]

When I find a battery and search for compatible inverters, it never list Lux Power. I have seen some batteries list Solar Assistance, but then this software doesn't list Lux Power inverters nor Pytes batteries.
I searched Lux Power for compatible batteries and found this list, but not much luck finding local suppliers for these batteries:

Hey,
I'm from Pytes and our batteries are compatible with Luxpower and you could find us on this list. Meanwhile, we are compatible with other inverter brands too

 

[derekja]

This is not an advertising platform

But luxpower is a protocol rarely enough supported that another supplier option is good to know!

 

[LittleLebowski]

This is not an advertising platform

Seemed factual to me. Why don’t you let the site staff handle things?

 

[fromport]

But luxpower is a protocol rarely enough supported that another supplier option is good to know!

Afaik LuxPower does not have its own protocol. Again, AFAIK, they use the PYLON protocol.
When a vendor says it is battery BMS is compatible with inverter brand "X" it just means they speak the PYLON protocol good enough to understand each other.

 

[derekja]

Afaik LuxPower does not have its own protocol. Again, AFAIK, they use the PYLON protocol.
When a vendor says it is battery BMS is compatible with inverter brand "X" it just means they speak the PYLON protocol good enough to understand each other.

Oh interesting, thanks. That might explain why I can set the inverter to either pylon or gsl and both seem to work without changing the protocol on the battery side.