Power station attacks…..

[schmism]

I don't think repeated sub station attacks would be possible or practical. Individuals and small groups would be caught pretty quickly, and probably couldn't damage things fast enough to cause any wide spread harm or take down the grid.

nation.

This statement is typical of people that don't understand how fragile the grid system is. You can read the after action reports of the TX grid "shutdown" that was done just minutes before the entire thing would have collapsed resulting in it taking months to get back up and running.

There are limited number of replacement grid size transformers available. Surveillance of the sites is limited and as pointed out shooting attacks can be carried out from a significant distance away. Repeated attacks? You mean get in your vehicle and drive to the next site over and shoot it? Yes I could see how one car of bad actors could take out 10-20? transformers in a 4 - 8 hr period. And how are you going to track them down? ballistics from a walmart 30-06? for $400? In southern states that likely dont have waiting periods for long gun sales?

When I worked with the emergency management coordinator for my area 10 years ago (as part of the volunteer FF dept and ham operator) he made it clear his biggest concern was a intentional sabatage act/attack against the substations in his district.

 

[MurphyGuy]

This statement is typical of people that don't understand how fragile the grid system is. You can read the after action reports of the TX grid "shutdown" that was done just minutes before the entire thing would have collapsed resulting in it taking months to get back up and running.

There are limited number of replacement grid size transformers available. Surveillance of the sites is limited and as pointed out shooting attacks can be carried out from a significant distance away. Repeated attacks? You mean get in your vehicle and drive to the next site over and shoot it? Yes I could see how one car of bad actors could take out 10-20? transformers in a 4 - 8 hr period. And how are you going to track them down? ballistics from a walmart 30-06? for $400? In southern states that likely dont have waiting periods for long gun sales?

When I worked with the emergency management coordinator for my area 10 years ago (as part of the volunteer FF dept and ham operator) he made it clear his biggest concern was a intentional sabatage act/attack against the substations in his district.

I think I have a good understanding of our grid's vulnerabilities. I'm an electrical engineer (retired), and a prepper. I've done quite a bit of research into this stuff and I agree our grid is vulnerable. Personally, I've always been worried about a nuclear EMP attack from North Korea or Iran.

But it's not vulnerable to a couple of backyard morons with hunting rifles. Could they damage it? Of course, they did it in California and now again.

But a couple of bad actors would not be capable of inflicting wide spread damage for a couple good reasons. 1) The distances to travel would take them far too long and 2) As soon as the authorities saw a pattern, they'd implement defensive measures to capture them.

Texas was a special case and its cause was incompetence and greed.

A couple guys are not going to take down our grid with a hunting rifle. Maybe 50 of them might be able to do it (probably not) if they took time to plan every detail, but most of these types aren't intelligent enough for that kind of operation.

Our grid is vulnerable, but not that vulnerable. Some of what they say is legit, some of it is geared towards seeking money.

What's got me perplexed is why the media is running this motivation about the gay bar drag queen show. I can't imagine that even the most radical right wing anti-gay religious zealot is going to risk a lengthy prison sentence and implement a scorched earth policy to stop a meaningless stage show in a bar. I might expect this kind of thing for a political event, but not some obscure stage show in a bar.

 

[SparkyJJO]

I think I have a good understanding of our grid's vulnerabilities. I'm an electrical engineer (retired), and a prepper. I've done quite a bit of research into this stuff and I agree our grid is vulnerable. Personally, I've always been worried about a nuclear EMP attack from North Korea or Iran.

But it's not vulnerable to a couple of backyard morons with hunting rifles. Could they damage it? Of course, they did it in California and now again.

But a couple of bad actors would not be capable of inflicting wide spread damage for a couple good reasons. 1) The distances to travel would take them far too long and 2) As soon as the authorities saw a pattern, they'd implement defensive measures to capture them.

Texas was a special case and its cause was incompetence and greed.

A couple guys are not going to take down our grid with a hunting rifle. Maybe 50 of them might be able to do it (probably not) if they took time to plan every detail, but most of these types aren't intelligent enough for that kind of operation.

Our grid is vulnerable, but not that vulnerable. Some of what they say is legit, some of it is geared towards seeking money.

What's got me perplexed is why the media is running this motivation about the gay bar drag queen show. I can't imagine that even the most radical right wing anti-gay religious zealot is going to risk a lengthy prison sentence and implement a scorched earth policy to stop a meaningless stage show in a bar. I might expect this kind of thing for a political event, but not some obscure stage show in a bar.

Because they gotta tag some "hateful" thing to some made-up alt-right wing extremist boogeyman. The media can't just report what happened anymore, they gotta spin everything.

 

[740GLE]

The main issue is that there's nothing a couple of guards can do to prevent someone taking a few shots from a distance at night. Most of the sub stations around here are surrounded by trees. Those that are not, are close to populated areas, so even then returning fire would be risky. Most effective thing I can think of would be some sort of concrete wall with enough height to prevent a shot taken from the ground to hit the transformers. Highway sound barrier systems might be a worth a look since they can be put in place pretty quickly. It would also make it more difficult for some of the dumb-ass people around here to climb the fences and get themselves turned to ash (yes, that happened a couple years ago around here too). The guy climbed the fences and got close enough to some of the equipment to become a path to ground. His girlfriend/date was severely burned at the fence.

Ahh you’ve read CIP 014, lots of concrete walls went up in 2015-2018.

Sadly you can only put up walls around so many transformer and equipment without crying excess, most distribution transformers aren’t included, but I imagine a nice revision will be coming out soon.

 

[740GLE]

As for grid resiliency, the Northeast is only 3 or 4 contingencies away from black out, ISO lists it’s biggest contingency each day, does take much sleuthing to figure it out. Sure they cover that contingency but take out the next two or three and it’s hurting.

Don’t even get started on natural gas pipeline contingencies ?

 

[Nobodybusiness]

This statement is typical of people that don't understand how fragile the grid system is. You can read the after action reports of the TX grid "shutdown" that was done just minutes before the entire thing would have collapsed resulting in it taking months to get back up and running.

There are limited number of replacement grid size transformers available. Surveillance of the sites is limited and as pointed out shooting attacks can be carried out from a significant distance away. Repeated attacks? You mean get in your vehicle and drive to the next site over and shoot it? Yes I could see how one car of bad actors could take out 10-20? transformers in a 4 - 8 hr period. And how are you going to track them down? ballistics from a walmart 30-06? for $400? In southern states that likely dont have waiting periods for long gun sales?

When I worked with the emergency management coordinator for my area 10 years ago (as part of the volunteer FF dept and ham operator) he made it clear his biggest concern was a intentional sabatage act/attack against the substations in his district.

There are no waiting periods for long Gun purchases anywhere regardless of what stereotypical geography you invoke.

 

[Brett V]

“More powerful” implies bigger caliber than the 5.56/.223 used at metcalf.

A 12 gauge slug fits the bill

 

[Skypower]

Obviously our leadership for many administrations hasn’t been paying attention to all the warnings regarding terrorist or Carrington event warnings. If the had, they’d have utility station replacement gear warehoused strategically across the country.

 

[Spunky]

Don’t even get started on natural gas pipeline contingencies ?

The pipelines that fuel the power plants?

The rural stations usually can't have their circuits tied to near by sub/circuits and show the longest disruptions. Most utilities have mobile subs to cover during scheduled outages.
For some reason this seems to be getting extra press, but these guys need to lose their freedom.

And has for anybody that wants to go poking around in a substation and/or stealing copper, just energize the top of the fence at 4800v, so they don't have to go all the way inside to find out what happens.

 

[MurphyGuy]

A 12 gauge slug fits the bill

I don't think a 12 ga slug will even penetrate a 1/4" thick mild steel plate at point blank range. Not enough velocity and way too fat.

 

[morth]

A 12 gauge slug fits the bill

Slug would be too big in diameter and just put a dent in the case unless it was tungsten sabot dart or some other harder metal and shaped properly. 5.56 FMJ will go through 3/8 plate pretty easily, as do hollow points and soft tip rounds. Add green tips and go up to 308 or 30-06. Pretty easy to put holes in things that were not designed to have holes in them.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Slug would be too big in diameter and just put a dent in the case unless it was tungsten sabot dart or some other harder metal and shaped properly. 5.56 FMJ will go through 3/8 plate pretty easily, as do hollow points and soft tip rounds. Add green tips and go up to 308 or 30-06. Pretty easy to put holes in things that were not designed to have holes in them.

The only AP rounds I have ever seen in 30-06 are black from Lake city.
The m855 have green tips but that is 556.
Out of a 20 inch barrel I’ve seen them go through a surprisingly amount of cold roll but never had the chance to shoot ar5-600 plate with them.

 

[wattmatters]

The biggest threat (aside from a Carrington type event) to our (Australian) grid is climate change. Increased frequency, duration and severity of fires, flood and storms are the primary causes of major outages here.

 

[houseofancients]

One major attack for this utility in the past what 90-100 years?

Last time I knew stations were routinely manned 24/8 was back in the 60/70s if not prob earlier for stations that didn’t have hydro generation tied to it.

Many stations aren’t designed with bathrooms so factor that into having 24/365 coverage.

Fair amount of info was released about the
Metcalf S/S attack back in 2013, no one was caught, not even a guess. My guess those responsible for that attack are sharpening their tactics.

a bathroom is overrated

 

[Spunky]

a bathroom is overrated

Standing on the stones and peeing through onto the copper lattice underneath could test some electrical theories

 

[BobT]

"Lights Out" by Ted Koppel (2015, ISBN 978-0-553-41996-2) is a pretty good summary of the vulnerability of the power grid. Mr. Koppel, as a media person, has not been one of my favorite folks but his book is scary.

 

[Brett V]

When I suggested a 12 gauge slug, I thought we were talking about transformers.

 

[morth]

The only AP rounds I have ever seen in 30-06 are black from Lake city.
The m855 have green tips but that is 556.
Out of a 20 inch barrel I’ve seen them go through a surprisingly amount of cold roll but never had the chance to shoot ar5-600 plate with them.

When I suggested a 12 gauge slug, I thought we were talking about transformers.

Yes, we were. A standard slug just mushrooms when hitting plate, much like a 22LR would. The plate might bend, but the slug will not make a hole in it. At least, that has been my experience when trying some of these things.

 

[Brett V]

Yes, we were. A standard slug just mushrooms when hitting plate, much like a 22LR would. The plate might bend, but the slug will not make a hole in it. At least, that has been my experience when trying some of these things.

 

[morth]

Car doors aren't made from 3/8" plate. Slugs do indeed go right through thinner stuff.