Radiation Age and the prudent person

[upnorthandpersonal]

As usual with radiation danger, the two most important factors are 1) time and 2) distance. Limit the exposure time and maximize your distance from the source. The inverse square law is your friend in this case. Airborne particles, while potentially dangerous, also disperse with distance, but care should be taken finding a source of food and water. Canned goods, frozen stuff, etc. are great sources, just avoid things like animals (Sweden still has wild boar that one shouldn't eat even today due to too high concentrations of radiation from Chernobyl), mushrooms, etc.

 

[Freep]

The closer you live to one, the better chance for a quick death. I'd rather just melt then suffer with the aftermath.

Melt then suffer? You're a glutton for punishment.

 

[stienman]

I've been happy with my GQ electronics GMC500 plus. I don't think there's any need for a high end Geiger counter if you're just looking for a tool you might need for a go/no-go measurement in an emergency. That said, these are very good units for the low cost.

Further, you might not need one if you're just looking for an alert or heads-up. A lot of GMC users contribute to a free online geiger counter map that's updated live:

Geiger Counter World Map

Remember to clip the menu in the upper left and change "Any Time" to "Last 24 hours" so you don't see stations that haven't reported recently.

Various other organizations and data services provide local, real time radiation measurement as well - starting with the EPA. Search for "Radiation map live" and you will find others. There are apps for your phone that tap into these data sources as well.

 

[NMNeil]

As usual with radiation danger, the two most important factors are 1) time and 2) distance. Limit the exposure time and maximize your distance from the source. The inverse square law is your friend in this case. Airborne particles, while potentially dangerous, also disperse with distance, but care should be taken finding a source of food and water. Canned goods, frozen stuff, etc. are great sources, just avoid things like animals (Sweden still has wild boar that one shouldn't eat even today due to too high concentrations of radiation from Chernobyl), mushrooms, etc.

In 1957 the reactor at Windscale went into meltdown. The sale of milk that was produced within a 200 mile radius of the reactor was banned and over 1/4 million gallons was dumped into the sea. Afterwards the UK government's response was to rename the town Sellafield.
Now here's the frightening part.
42 years later in 1999 it was discovered that the pigeons that had been nesting in the remains of the buildings were highly radioactive. Even worse, their dropping were radioactive, so much so that they removed and isolated the top 3 feet of soil from a local park where the pigeons roosted which was 2 miles from the old reactor. They also took away a number of radioactive garden gnomes. Don't laugh, it's true.
They estimate that they will have the site cleaned up by 2120, 100 years from now, and the remaining 140 tons of plutonium will have been safely removed.

Time and distance are not always the panacea.

 

[John Frum]

They also took away a number of radioactive garden gnomes.

 

[robby]

I've been happy with my GQ electronics GMC500 plus. I don't think there's any need for a high end Geiger counter if you're just looking for a tool you might need for a go/no-go measurement in an emergency. That said, these are very good units for the low cost.

Further, you might not need one if you're just looking for an alert or heads-up. A lot of GMC users contribute to a free online geiger counter map that's updated live:

Geiger Counter World Map

Remember to clip the menu in the upper left and change "Any Time" to "Last 24 hours" so you don't see stations that haven't reported recently.

Various other organizations and data services provide local, real time radiation measurement as well - starting with the EPA. Search for "Radiation map live" and you will find others. There are apps for your phone that tap into these data sources as well.

That assumes that one has power and an Internet connection after an accident.
Anyway I think the chances of something like this happening to anyone is about the same as being struck by lightning. I only got a radiation tester because of the Fuka disaster. We know that tons of radiation is going into the sea, so I like to test my seafood, especially canned Tuna for any contamination. I have found none so far.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

The sale of milk that was produced within a 200 mile radius of the reactor was banned

Yes, since the animals eat the radioactive material and ends up in the milk. Same reason you can't eat wild boar and mushrooms in certain areas in Sweden and the like.

42 years later in 1999 it was discovered that the pigeons that had been nesting in the remains of the buildings were highly radioactive. Even worse, their dropping were radioactive, so much so that they removed and isolated the top 3 feet of soil from a local park where the pigeons roosted which was 2 miles from the old reactor.

Take the term 'highly radioactive' with a grain of salt. I have a highly radioactive source here in my lab that is guaranteed to be much stronger than what was found in those droppings, and I don't have to wear a lead suit handling it. The danger of the radioactivity in these droppings comes from consuming the bird, or handling the birds and ingesting it. The amount of radiation in the droppings accumulated over time when these women were feeding hundreds of pigeons in their backyard.... There was a ban on handling and eating them within a 10 mile radius from the plant, which is similar to what I said about those radioactive boar in Sweden.

In addition, keep in mind that animals (and humans) are pretty resilient to radiation. I've put a dosage chart below to give an idea of how much radiation certain activities entail to give some perspective.

 

[HOU_Castle]

If you want to know the levels and get alerts then get one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/RADEX-Scinti...1&keywords=quarta+radex&qid=1623952480&sr=8-4

They also have cheaper models from Quarta in the $160 range. I have one and it is excellent at detecting even small amounts of radiation. They are Manufactured in Russia and the Tested in Germany to meet AEA requirements and then tested again in Deleware before they are shipped out.

If I decide to purchase the used one, how do I test it? And I'm not planning anytime soon to visit my dental office.
Will it detect microwave radiation?

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Won't detect microwave radiation. Get an ionizing smoke detector (not the optical ones). It has a 241Am source in it, which you can take out to test with. 241Am emits very low energy gammas and (the majority) alphas. You probably won't see the alphas, but you should see a spectrum that looks like this:

Depending on the resolution, sensitivity, ADC etc. int that device, you might just see the 60keV spike, or something lumped together, like this:

 

[HOU_Castle]

Won't detect microwave radiation. Get an ionizing smoke detector (not the optical ones). It has a 241Am source in it, which you can take out to test with. 241Am emits very low energy gammas and (the majority) alphas. You probably won't see the alphas, but you should see a spectrum that looks like this:
View attachment 53228
Depending on the resolution, sensitivity, ADC etc. int that device, you might just see the 60keV spike, or something lumped together, like this:

View attachment 53230

Thank you very much!!

 

[svetz]

I've been happy with my GQ electronics GMC500 plus. I don't think there's any need for a high end Geiger counter if you're just looking for a tool you might need for a go/no-go measurement in an emergency. That said, these are very good units for the low cost.

Thanks!

One of the things @upnorthandpersonal said was:

... care should be taken finding a source of food and water. Canned goods, frozen stuff, etc. are great sources, just avoid things like animals (Sweden still has wild boar that one shouldn't eat even today due to too high concentrations of radiation from Chernobyl), mushrooms, etc.

So now I'm wondering if something that tests food too might not be a good idea. Can any detector do that?

Further, you might not need one if you're just looking for an alert or heads-up. A lot of GMC users contribute to a free online geiger counter map that's updated live:

Geiger Counter World Map

Remember to clip the menu in the upper left and change "Any Time" to "Last 24 hours" so you don't see stations that haven't reported recently.

Holy cow! That's great! Although, the red spots on the map are pretty scary looking. Can't believe there are two nuclear reactors in the area (there's another one up in Port St. Lucy, but it's over 100 miles away) and nobody in the area is on the map. Well, if I get one I'll add my data.

 

[svetz]

...I only got a radiation tester because of the Fuka disaster. We know that tons of radiation is going into the sea, so I like to test my seafood, especially canned Tuna for any contamination. I have found none so far.

What are using and how do you like it?

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Can any detector do that?

This is where the sensitivity comes into play. You want something that is highly sensitive to small/tiny amounts of radioactive material. Reason being that small amounts when ingested are much more harmful than when you're just exposed to it on the outside of your body. This is why Radon gas is dangerous: it's an alpha emitter that won't do any harm if you just don't breath it in where it wrecks havoc on your lungs.

That link that @robby put up to that RADEX Obsidian is pretty decent. You might want to have it sit with the food for quite some time though - it won't be instantaneous. You also want to open canned food and 'stick' the detector in since the metal can will block a lot already, especially alphas, betas and low energy gammas.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

could one sensibly prep if they live close to an aging nuclear reactor?
in the '50s promised energy that would be too cheap to measure. Not only did that not happen, but the NRC just re-upped the operating license for another 20

See the snoobler-snoper post

I’d feel pretty good about that 1950s reactor. That’s smart and forward thinking. And safe.
Opinions to the contrary, decommissioning Vermont Yankee was a stupid move. It happened because of public opinion (not science or other form of reality) and leading politicians caving to entities whose opinions are essentially conflicts of interest in that closing Vermont Yankee financially benefits them.

If you are concerned about your safety being close to a nuclear power plant, move. It’s like people who buy a house in the flight path of the airport and then complain when the F35s take off.

But think about it! That 1950s technology took a lot of brainpower and oversight to implement. The tech of today layered on more analog safety systems has got to be way safer than purely software-driven monitoring. Humans can/have to physically verify function during inspections. Modern stuff merely self reports.

 

[svetz]

Take the term 'highly radioactive' with a grain of salt. I have a highly radioactive source here in my lab that is guaranteed to be much stronger than what was found in those droppings, and I don't have to wear a lead suit handling it.

Despite the thread, I'm not worried about this as I'm pretty old. Any exposure bad enough to kill me in the next 20 years won't get the chance. But there are those who will live a lot longer.

Can you check me out on this, possibly provide some guidance/wisdom? In looking at the chart I can see the lowest annual dose where the increased lifetime risk of cancer is evident at 100 mSV. But, beyond that, it looks like 500 mSV for "blood cells return to normal".

But what's the maximum one-day safe dosage? Is that the 250 mSV for "life-saving" operations?

So, if the reading in the car is 40 mSV/h and outside it's 100 mSV/h, then 15 minutes getting gas outside and three hours driving packed roads to safety adds up to 100 / 4 + 3x40 = 145 mSV? Is that how the math works?

Or would opening the car door make the car interior 100 mSV/h for the journey?

What could one expect radiation to do overtime? For example, if it's 1 mSV/h inside and 100 outside now, what will it be tomorrow?
At what point should we shelter in place or is it better to get the family in the car and run? (Keep in mind if we "run" it's closer to the site).
Or, if I waited a day would it be more likely to go down and be safer to travel? I can actually "run" in the opposite direction to wait things out, there's another 50 miles of road going south. Could probably take the boat to Florida's west coast, but that would be a lot of outside exposure.
Hmm, is being in a car really any protection?

Sorry to put you on the spot. I'm just looking for rough numbers. I know when I look at a thermometer what to expect when I go outside, but I just don't have any sort of feel for Sieverts or how to know what to do even if I knew the exact reading.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Consider radiation just to be high energy light (gammas are high energy photons). If you sit in a dark box, open it for 15 minutes, and close it again - you have been exposed to 15 minutes. The inside of the box doesn't suddenly become a light source. That said, if there is fallout, or e.g. 137Cs gets spewed all around, that could be a different story - stuff that sticks to your clothes will come with you on the journey, continuously exposing you to radiation.

Also, radiation is a game of statistics. It's very difficult to say what the maximum one-day safe dose is. The life saving cancer treatments go well above and beyond 'safe', but that's kinda the point: it's pretty much a last option, hope the bad cells die before it kills you... If however you take a statistical analysis, those exposed to 100mSv/year (where statistically you definitely see an increase in cancer cases) is not something you want to be exposed to in a day (a dose of 100mSv for a day is more dangerous than the same 100mSv dose spread out over a year).

 

[svetz]

Guessing at my distance alpha and beta isn't going to be an issue and they'd probably be stopped by the body of the car.
I doubt a car's metal body would stop gamma, so not much protection there.

...The inverse square law is...

Yikes! So if at 25 miles I'm seeing 50 mSv/h and my escape exit route takes me up to 7 miles of the source, then:

mSv/h(7 miles) = 50 x 25² / 7² = 638 mSv/h

But, going 20 miles away gives me 50 x 25² / 45² = 15 mSv/h

Okay, sort of know-how to figure it out now... thanks!!

... stuff that sticks to your clothes will come with you on the journey, continuously exposing you to radiation....

So tyvek paint suits for going outside that are one use only... ;-)

Is Cesium fallout a possibility from a nuclear reactor accident?

 

[svetz]

...Is Cesium fallout a possibility from a nuclear reactor accident?

Yup - ref

 

[svetz]

In digesting all of this, looks like the lowest level of accuracy you'd want is ~50 µSv/hr for the shelter/flee question. Does that sound right?
For food though, you'd probably want something a lot better. Not sure if food testing or fleeing is more important.

The $30 ear-jack ones for a cellphone are +/- 30% and 0.1 to 200 μSv/h. Even the good detectors look like they're only +/- 15%, or 10% with a calibration source. The ear-jack model would get saturated pretty easily though, from the chart 200 μSv/h looks fairly low. Once near the top, you wouldn't know how bad it was. So, probably useless.

 

[NwCali]

Wind 150 (2% global electricity)

I know someone who lost their arm to a windfarm generation system... I've known people hurt at Power plants (coal). I doubt the numbers are very accurate to be honest, their not always reported right.

I also knew someone who was on Obama's short list of Nuclear Advisors who swore we could (and should) do Nuclear a LOT safer/less waste (and cheaper) than we do but we don't due to the "politics"... (She was a Nuclear Engineer, but if you watch the TV show Survivor you know simply having the degree doesn't mean your smart!).