Radiation Age and the prudent person

[svetz]

TL;DR: How could one sensibly prep if they live close to an aging nuclear reactor? Thinking about getting a cheap detector for a cell phone, thoughts?

I live within a 30 mile radius of a power source that back in the '50s promised energy that would be too cheap to measure. Not only did that not happen, but the NRC just re-upped the operating license for another 20 years on this 60-year-old plant. If it's not the oldest, it's probably in the top ten. Combine that with other recent events and it's time to have a plan. What sort of plan?

Potassium Iodine?
As I understand it, this is really only good in some scenarios and that type of exposure is over in a week. I'm not sure I'd be smart enough to know when to take them, what the dosage should be, or that the government would be timely/truthful about it (I could see them not advising people to take them because they know most won't have them and they wouldn't want to start a panic - similar to their initial masks aren't needed Covid advice so as to not cause a shortage of masks for hospital workers).

An App for that
Last week I loaded the GammaPix app on my cell phone. This app requires you to "black" out your camera, then it counts up the white dots that represent the gamma ray hits. It's not very accurate, but studies showed for first-responders that it was good enough to let them know if they were in a hot spot. I loaded it on my phone a week ago and forgot about it. The other day I got a radiation alert telling me to move to safety.

It was obviously a light leak through my pants, but I had forgotten about the app and didn't realize it was running. But that's what got me to thinking - if there was a real emergency, what should I do?

Geiger Counters

There are a number of these and prices are all over the place. Generally, you get what you pay for. There are ~$30 devices that plug into the earphone jack of your cell phone (video). I believe these are photodiodes, but not sure. The specs say +/- 30%, so not all that accurate, but that's probably good enough to let you know if it's dangerous.

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Anyway, figured first-responders and smart people might have some ideas for you what you're average Joe could do.

Update: Link to thread summary

 

[Brewman]

The closer you live to one, the better chance for a quick death. I'd rather just melt then suffer with the aftermath.

Live within 5 miles of Turkey Point NPS

Would the meters X-ray techs wear work???

 

[svetz]

Howdy neighbor!

 

[Brewman]

If I start growing a third arm I'll let you know.

 

[svetz]

Would the meters X-ray techs wear work??? I've seen these cards, but they're $20. If I start growing a third arm I'll let you know. Nice, that'll be convenient for @ghostwriter66 when she next needs you to hold her beer.

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[Brewman]

I wonder if the base has some sort of detection system.

 

[45North]

Here in Ontario had a "false alarm" about a nuclear incident in Jan 2020. The debate continues as to whether there was actually a Real incident or not.

Ontario investigates why emergency operations centre sounded a nuclear false alert

The alert was pushed to cellphones, radios and TVs across the province at about 7:30 a.m., and Ontario Power Generation sent out a tweet about 40 minutes after…

nationalpost.com

 

[Brewman]

Fun times.

 

[John Frum]

Here in Ontario had a "false alarm" about a nuclear incident in Jan 2020. The debate continues as to whether there was actually a Real incident or not.

Ontario investigates why emergency operations centre sounded a nuclear false alert

The alert was pushed to cellphones, radios and TVs across the province at about 7:30 a.m., and Ontario Power Generation sent out a tweet about 40 minutes after…

nationalpost.com

And there was 0 followup.
How the heck that happened is a question that deserves an answer.

 

[snoobler]

How Deadly Is Your Kilowatt? We Rank The Killer Energy Sources

Coal is by far the biggest killer. Nuclear is the safest energy source.

www.forbes.com

Energy Source Mortality Rate (deaths/trillionkWhr)

Coal – global average 100,000 (41% global electricity)

Coal – China 170,000 (75% China’s electricity)

Coal – U.S. 10,000 (32% U.S. electricity)

Oil 36,000 (33% of energy, 8% of electricity)

Natural Gas 4,000 (22% global electricity)

Biofuel/Biomass 24,000 (21% global energy)

Solar (rooftop) 440 (< 1% global electricity)

Wind 150 (2% global electricity)

Hydro – global average 1,400 (16% global electricity)

Hydro – U.S. 5 (6% U.S. electricity)

Nuclear – global average 90 (11% global electricity w/Chern&Fukush)

Nuclear – U.S. 0.1 (19% U.S. electricity)

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Disclaimer: I design radiation detection sensors and devices. First responders use something like (S)PRD equipment which allows accurate dose recording end (in the case of SPRD) isotope identification. These devices are really good, but expensive. We also make devices that do something similar for public shelters. In general, you don't want something made with a GM tube these days. They need a high voltage to operate and are very sensitive. Drop the device, and it's dead. Look for something that is based on scintillation and uses an SiPM for the readout (skip the photomultiplier tube stuff, same issue as the GM tube). Then there is the cool military stuff we do that I can't even really talk about in detail, but let's just say we made a very small device that fits in a suit, runs for 30 days off of a CR2477 at sensitivities unheard of in this form factor...

I'd send you a device, but we do B2B only and export regulations are a pain. We've been thinking about making an 'Arduino' version without restrictions, but lack if time and resources keep postponing this project.

 

[HOU_Castle]

Disclaimer: I design radiation detection sensors and devices. First responders use something like (S)PRD equipment which allows accurate dose recording end (in the case of SPRD) isotope identification. These devices are really good, but expensive. We also make devices that do something similar for public shelters. In general, you don't want something made with a GM tube these days. They need a high voltage to operate and are very sensitive. Drop the device, and it's dead. Look for something that is based on scintillation and uses an SiPM for the readout (skip the photomultiplier tube stuff, same issue as the GM tube). Then there is the cool military stuff we do that I can't even really talk about in detail, but let's just say we made a very small device that fits in a suit, runs for 30 days off of a CR2477 at sensitivities unheard of in this form factor...

I'd send you a device, but we do B2B only and export regulations are a pain. We've been thinking about making an 'Arduino' version without restrictions, but lack if time and resources keep postponing this project.

Keep us posted if your Arduino version is available... I live about 45 miles away from 4 nuclear plants (in US).

 

[Hedges]

Most radiation risk (at a distance from concentrated sources) is particles. Shutting off ventilation and leaks of your house to shelter in place is probably first step. To get by for an extended time, suitable air filters and positive pressure. If you're exposed, discard garments and shower. You want to minimize time of exposure to external contaminants, and most important is not to get them inside your body.

If you are paranoid, carry a mask with suitable filters. I've read that radon in a house is more of a problem for smokers, because smoke can lodge in the lungs and give extended exposure, where otherwise the radon would just get outside.

Perhaps leaks from a reactor will be isotopes noble gasses, which you aren't going to filter out. The Chinese fuel rod cladding failures are said to have released neon and krypton. But your body isn't going to absorb and store those, either.

Alpha, beta gamma x-ray, neutron. Only neutron, gamma, and some x-ray can pass through much of anything to reach a detector (or cause a dose to you.) Monitor badges have a range of filters to discriminate between various sources.

 

[HRTKD]

In my mind, the level of concern would change depending on if I lived upwind or downwind of the plant.

 

[svetz]

you don't want ... a GM tube ...Drop the device, and it's dead.

Really good point, I'd be hard-pressed to find something I haven't dropped at least once.

Thanks for chiming in with your background! Always good to have an expert around that can dispel crazy myths.

... export regulations are a pain...

Got to love red tape...especially on things that can save people's lives. Great job on the cool stuff you can't talk about and for offering to send one.

I kind of like the idea of the GammaPix as its all contained in the phone (a dongle sticking out will get snagged) and sensitive enough for my interests. Plus the phone goes with you. Sadly, not ready to paint over the camera lens (the shell is gorilla glass, so that might not even work).

...We've been thinking about making an 'Arduino' version without restrictions, but lack if time and resources keep postponing this project....

That would be awesome!

I was thinking someone might have posted something similar and found this on hackaday (no idea if it's any good):

After the Fukushima nuclear power plant disaster, radiation measurement became newly relevant for a lot of people. Geiger-Müller tubes, previously a curiosity, became simultaneously important and scarce.​

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Opengeiger.de (English-language version here) has complete instructions for making a Geiger counter without a Geiger-Müller tube. Instead, this counter uses a PIN photodiode and some carefully chosen operational amplifiers. The total cost of such a device is significantly cheaper than the alternative: under $1 for the diode and around $5 for the rest. And since the PIN photodiode in question is used in many other devices, it’s not a niche component like a Geiger tube is.​

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The secret sauce is in component selection and tuning. Opengeiger uses the BPW34 diode because it is relatively common and has a large surface area, but also because it has a very low capacitance when reverse-biased. The first-stage opamp choice is also fairly critical. Considering that an average gamma radiation event produces only around 10 nanoamps for about 50 microseconds, a lot of amplification (100,000x), low noise, and high bandwidth are a must.​

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If you want to get started with this project, you could first browse through the explanation (PDF) to get an overview of the project’s goals, read up on all the technical considerations (PDF) or just head straight for the DIY instructions for the “Stuttgarter Geigerle” (PDF, schematic is on the last page). All of the documentation is chock-full of relevant references and totally worth the read.​

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

PIN diode works, but is very insensitive. You're talking single digit counts per minute. Even traditional, small GM tubes have a sensitivity in the counts per second range. (clarification: the sensitivity of a detector is expressed in "counts per second per microsievert per hour, cps/uSv/h). It works for certain applications such as high dose rate detectors, but when you're doing that, you usually know you're already in the danger zone and have taken other precautions.

 

[chrisski]

Potassium Iodine?
As I understand it, this is really only good in some scenarios and that type of exposure is over in a week. I'm not sure I'd be smart enough to know when to take them, what the dosage should be, or that the government would be timely/truthful about it (I could see them not advising people to take them because they know most won't have them and they wouldn't want to start a panic - similar to their initial masks aren't needed Covid advice so as to not cause a shortage of masks for hospital workers).

When I looked at buying this a long time ago, seemed like this was an ineffective treatment for radiation. Seemed to me like it would help with such a narrow set of the problem, but everything else could cause harm. After studying it, I felt like people were being told to take Potassium Iodine to feel like there was something they could do, "False faith is better than no faith."

Honestly though, what is there to prepping? Would you live in that area after an accident or get out? I would be immediately moving at least five miles, but as much as 40 miles away.

 

[svetz]

In my mind, the level of concern would change depending on if I lived upwind or downwind of the plant.

Wind directional is seasonal here.

Do nuclear accidents still happen on clear-blue-sky days? Two big errors occurred just after they approved extending the license, from what I read the "automated" systems over-road operator stupidity and safely contained the problem.

In my mind the most likely time for a disaster will be like Fukushima, but rather than a tidal wave it'll be a hurricane. This means the roads, bridges, and power might well be out and we'd have to shelter in place.

Since hurricane winds rotate around the center, regardless of where you are it seems like everyone will get dosed pretty good. But perhaps it would get sucked up into the stratosphere?

Also, even if was possible to evacuate by car there's only one route out, so I'd actually have to go closer, well under the imaginary 10-mile limit (going right past where @Brewman lives and wondering why everyone that bailed out of Miami has caused gridlock on the highway polluted with radiation).

I already have the house sealed fairly well to keep humidity out. But duct-taping the doors/windows probably wouldn't hurt. Still fuzzy on if the potassium iodine would be worth it.

PIN diode works, but is very insensitive....It works for certain applications such as high dose rate detectors, but when you're doing that, you usually know you're already in the danger zone and have taken other precautions.

As I'm not a first-responder, I'm starting to think my "real" application is more like a "smoke detector" to let me know if the danger zone is coming to me. Something to answer the age-old question of shelter or flee? From here I can't hear the sirens @Brewman will be woken up by.

I'm sure if it actually happened when there was no communication and I had a cheap unit I'd be cursing for not having something more accurate and obsessing over every μSv/h. Up until the batteries died, then I'd be cursing I did not have a more energy-efficient unit. ;-)

 

[svetz]

After studying it, I felt like people were being told to take Potassium Iodine to feel like there was something they could do, "False faith is better than no faith."

That's kind of what I was thinking too. On the other hand, the danger is only 7 days so I'm not sure how bad the negatives could be and some faith can be a big help in those situations. Having a supply on hand might also be a good bargaining chip should one have to negotiate with very scared people.

Honestly though, what is there to prepping?

Don't know, but figured asking couldn't hurt.

Would you live in that area after an accident or get out?

You mean long-term, after the cleanup? Assuming it's not Chernobyl: The remake and we're allowed back? Depends on what my precision geiger counter said. But yeah, if it seemed safe I would...bet the neighborhood would be quieter. I might not fish as much ;-)

I would be immediately moving at least five miles, but as much as 40 miles away.

From the Smithsonian:

Currently, if a radiological emergency occurs, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission recommends that anyone living within 10 miles of a plant to tune in to their local radio or television Emergency Alert System and heed the instructions from state or local officials. The commission also suggests that anyone within 50 miles to take action to protect local food and water supplies. Recently, some have have argued that the evacuation zone should be extended this far as well—and in 2011, after the Fukushima disaster in Japan, authorities from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission recommended that Americans living within 50 miles of the plant to evacuate.

But one of the reasons that prompted me to start this thread was the discovery that I'm not alone. From the same article:

Overall, about a third of Americans live within one of the 50-mile radiuses.

Of course, most Americans don't live on an island with only one-way off.

 

[robby]

If you want to know the levels and get alerts then get one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/RADEX-Scinti...1&keywords=quarta+radex&qid=1623952480&sr=8-4

They also have cheaper models from Quarta in the $160 range. I have one and it is excellent at detecting even small amounts of radiation. They are Manufactured in Russia and the Tested in Germany to meet AEA requirements and then tested again in Deleware before they are shipped out.