diy solar

diy solar

ROFLMAO

This thread got me wondering if there are any testing standards that can be applied to all these batteries in our applications and I found IEC 61427-1:2013.

There's a good description here:
www.canbat.com

IEC 61427 STANDARD - and its Importance to PV Applications

IEC 61427 recognizes that batteries in PV applications take on the characteristics of both float and cycling applications.
www.canbat.com www.canbat.com

It may not be a perfect indicator of service life, but at least it's a standardized test.

I found the test report for my Trojan AGMs on their site that makes the following assertion (underline is mine):
"Therefore, since the 27-AGM battery delivered about 1,275 IEC cycles before it failed to deliver at least 80% of its rated capacity, we can say that Trojan Battery Company’s AGM battery line has a service life of at about eight and one-half (8½) years, and this is reflected in Table 3. Finally, the results obtained from testing the 27-AGM model apply fully to all other AGM models (current and future) by virtue of similarity of design. "

I've found similar test reports for some Rolls flooded lead acids stating:
"8.4: Cycling endurance test in photovoltaic applications (extreme conditions). Battery completed 4 aggregate phase A+B cycle sequences, after which the discharge at the 10 hour rate delivered temperature-corrected capacity of 223 Ah which is less than 80% of the specification value equal to 229 Ah. PASSED. "
Which based on my understanding of the standard equates to a service life of 4 years.

I haven't found any test reports for Battle Born or other drop-in LFPs (but I just found this standard so haven't spent a lot of time on it).
 
Once I was away for 4 days on a hike. I came back and found my batteries dead and all the food spoiled because one of those days were overcast. 1.1kw - 2.4kw daily production and 135lbs of 2 year old batteries couldnt keep up with a 40A measured daily load. After that they would no longer charge above 13.8v. Why? Because while the load was only 40A, and I was making over 2.4kw for several days, sulfure oxide buildup had reduced the charge efficiency below 50% and because their inherent resistance, they must variable current charge for at least 3hrs when theres only 7hrs of usable sunshine.

But hey they were $200 and rated for 1200 cycles!! What a deal...

Onto my 5th set in 8 years...


....or i could buy a $400, 40lb battery that will actually absorb over 97% of the energy produced, wont kill itself with sulfur poisoning, and has 20% more usable capacity. Oh and even the most pessimistic labs tests rate it for over double the cycles.
 
Last edited:
Ped said:
Once I was away for 4 days on a hike. I came back and found my batteries dead and all the food spoiled because one of those days were overcast. 1.1kw - 2.4kw daily production and 135lbs of 2 year old batteries couldnt keep up with a 40A measured daily load. After that they would no longer charge above 13.8v. Why? Because while the load was only 40A, and I was making over 2.4kw for several days, sulfure oxide buildup had reduced the charge efficiency below 50% and because their inherent resistance, must variable current charge for at least 3hrs when theres only 7hrs of usable sunshine.

But hey they were $200 and rated for 1200 cycles!! What a deal...

Onto my 5th set in 8 years...


....or i could buy a $400, 40lb battery that will actually absorb over 97% of the energy produced, wont kill itself with sulfur poisoning, and has 20% more usable capacity. Oh and even the most pessimistic labs tests rate it for over double the cycles.
Click to expand...

Maybe you should learn what you are doing before buying 5 sets in 8 years (I smell BS). People who know how to properly design and maintain their systems don't have that problem. So go ahead and blame the batteries instead of learning what you are doing wrong. If you can't keep LA's alive, good luck with your lithiums. They are much less forgiving of mistakes.

Most people who used LA's in the past didn't know what they were doing. Me included, many years ago. We over discharged them and left them dead for days before recharging. Most of those people still blame the batteries for the poor performance. You can't fix stupid. Then they buy expensive lithiums and actually do some research on how to take care of them before using. Then they come on forums and spew misleading anecdotes about how bad the old technology was, because there's no way they'd admit fault. Nevermind the fact they probably didn't even know the voltage of their $10 Kmart charger.
 
SolarRat said:
Maybe you should learn what you are doing before buying 5 sets in 8 years (I smell BS). People who know how to properly design and maintain their systems don't have that problem. So go ahead and blame the batteries instead of learning what you are doing wrong. If you can't keep LA's alive, good luck with your lithiums. They are much less forgiving of mistakes.

Most people who used LA's in the past didn't know what they were doing. Me included, many years ago. We over discharged them and left them dead for days before recharging. Most of those people still blame the batteries for the poor performance. You can't fix stupid. Then they buy expensive lithiums and actually do some research on how to take care of them before using. Then they come on forums and spew misleading anecdotes about how bad the old technology was, because there's no way they'd admit fault. Nevermind the fact they probably didn't even know the voltage of their $10 Kmart charger.
Click to expand...
Back before the days of SLA/Gel/AGM LA batteries, the average person never checked the water level in their FLA batteries. We had a special bottle full of distilled water at the station. the design was such, you pushed the nozzle down in the top and it would stop when it was full. If I had a bank of FLA I would have one as part of my maintenance kit. For those who have never seen one of them...

https://www.amazon.com/Performance-...SPPJRSM8KY2D&refRID=9P1A0EG8SPPJRSM8KY2D&th=1
 
Jay shows us the Thomas Edison batteries. This entire clip about the Baker Electric Car manufactured in 1909 is interesting but for those blessed with today's eight second, instant gratification attention span, you can fast fwd to the 7:20 mark in the clip for the batteries.
 
Sgt Raven said:
Back before the days of SLA/Gel/AGM LA batteries, the average person never checked the water level in their FLA batteries. We had a special bottle full of distilled water at the station. the design was such, you pushed the nozzle down in the top and it would stop when it was full. If I had a bank of FLA I would have one as part of my maintenance kit. For those who have never seen one of them...

https://www.amazon.com/Performance-...SPPJRSM8KY2D&refRID=9P1A0EG8SPPJRSM8KY2D&th=1
Click to expand...
do you remember ... when a "case" was 24 cans of oil ... or beer ... and the oil spigot punching into a can of oil with a satisfying, "kerchunk", sound ... and phone booths ... and when schools weren't locked down and patrolled by armed police officers and the huge tax bill wasnt handed to hard working people to pay for it all .. and when the average working person could afford at least a modest home, car, food and health insurance ... and when children were raised by their parents instead of gubmment .. and when moms and/or dads were home during the formative years for their children raising them and making functional, secure healthy home life .. and when you could go to the movies or the mall or school without being mowed down by some motherless child whacked out on "legal" mind and mood altering pharmaceuticals .. i do.
 
offgriddle said:
and when you could go to the movies or the mall or school without being mowed down by some motherless child whacked out on "legal" mind and mood altering pharmaceuticals
Click to expand...

And we locked crazy people in a place called the loony bin...so they didn't mow people down...and we blamed them, not he guns...
 
SolarRat said:
Don't play stupid. Phones and tools never used lead.
Click to expand...

You *Might* want to revise that statement.

In the mid 80s my bag phones (the first about '83) was the size of a pilots map case had a large gel cell in the bottom.
Mid & late 80s bag phones often had gel cells in the bag, you unplugged from a lighter type socket on the battery so you could plug it into the vehicle lighter.

Why bag phones?
Analog.
3 to 5 Watts with external antenna, instead of 1/3-1/2 Watt with the hand held phones.
Some of us remember when there was only cell towers in every other county, and you had to stand on the back of a buffalo in one leg and wave your tinfoil wrapped arms to get any kind of a signal...

And let's not forget the first GPS I ever saw,
In the Marines, about the size of an old Samsonite suitcase, had 4 big batteries, and weighed about 35 pounds...
4 batteries at about 3-1/2 pounds each, lasted about 20 minutes, so lots of spares, and caught fire/exploded when exposed to moisture...

We often used them for incendiaries they were so reliable at starting fires, throw one down and take a leak on it, run like hell... Another $330 (early 1980s) taxpayers dollars well spent...
They would melt through light armor, which is always in the front of your mind when half your field pack was extra batteries for the radio, GPS and targeting laser, and you are getting rained on 3 times a day, 95% humidity, and crossing streams & rivers regularly.

I can't fix 'Stupid', but I did pick LiFePo4 and a big part of that was safety.
I know there are more charge dense batteries, but something safe enough it can go inside the house (with proper emergency vents) was my choice.
 
Why do they still use lead? Is it because theyre backup power sources and not daily cycled where 99.99% of the problem is?
 
Last edited:
My guess is because when the power goes out, so doesn't the heat, that and lead is cheaper and has been a part of Telecom infrastructures since Alexander Graham Bell.
 
Because they use the best tool for the job. Those LA's will last decades happily floating away at full charge waiting for a power failure. Lithium batteries won't last long at all being kept fully charged and at the ready. Same thing goes for UPS systems. LA's are still the best choice for emergency backup.
 
SolarRat said:
Because they use the best tool for the job. Those LA's will last decades happily floating away at full charge waiting for a power failure. Lithium batteries won't last long at all being kept fully charged and at the ready. Same thing goes for UPS systems. LA's are still the best choice for emergency backup.
Click to expand...
You might have a point if we were talking about batteries used in a UPS device. That is why some people have advised that if you're hooked up to shore power in your RV, have an AGM battery you can switch onto your system and let it sit there on float. In that situation, switch your LFP bank out of the circuit when you're on shore power long term.

How many of us are grid tied with a LFP power wall as a backup. It is only recently I have seen solar companies promote grid tied solar plus a power wall to the average customer, in TV ads. There, the lifespan of Lithium batteries may become a problem and cause warranty problems for those customers/companies.

Since I do not have access to solar industry publications, I don't know if this is something being written about/discussed.
 
Sandman said:
So lithium won't stay fully charged/floating? What will happen to them?
Click to expand...
It can possibly damage them or shorten their life. We're talking about sitting on float for week/s, not on float after recharging during the day and being used at night. Some are advising keeping your LFP batteries between 10%-90% SOC for long term use and long life.
 
*I* (personally) think this thread proves this forum is headed down the path to venting and rants rather than information sharing.
Pointing out something silly on boobtube is one thing, but taking the 'My Way Or Highway' approach gets nobody anywhere.

When I said I was 'Testing' LFP, they were 'Experimental' (for me) for two years and wasn't ready to chuck my lead/acid just yet I got jumped on from both LFP and LA fans...
Everything has a learning curve, I learned about LA which took about two years, including visiting manufacturers, talking to engineers, etc before I figured out how to keep LA alive & happy.

I don't much care for "Opinion"...
Opinions are subjective, subject to personal observations, specific faults or strengths, specific applications.
I'm happy to hear someone's opinion & experience, but I ask questions, get details, see if that APPLICATION is similar to mine...

As used in APPLICATION, Lead/Acid is very good at 'Stand By' where it's not used, or used very little.
This isn't what my application is, I use the snot out of my batteries.
AND, since seeing the sun isn't a guarantee, they don't do well with being deeply discharged or discharged for longer periods of time.
I experienced it first hand in my systems, and in other systems for 25 years.

Since this is a solar forum,
And since *MY* (personal) solar system is constantly either CHARGING, OR DISCHARGING,
Not much in between, almost no 'Stand By' or 'Float',
And almost no static charge level, just sitting at a specific charge level,
*I* (personally) have found LFP to fit *MY* specific application.

I'm not an "Armchair" or "YouTube" expert. I'm not a battery science engineer, and don't pretend to be one on the internet... :rolleyes:

I'm also not a 'Fan Boy', things get tested and have to PROVE they do a better job that a different way of doing thing. No 'Knee-Jerk' or jumping around from one to another idea as someone makes claims.
If it doesn't go through the proof testing, for A SPECIFIC APPLICATION I don't switch because a random 'someone' else says I should...

Actual first hand research, education, is slow and costly, every switch I make costs me money and time...
'Talk' is cheap... It's not THEIR MONEY they are spending when they 'Talk' someone into using something that doesn't fit the APPLICATION...

From TRYING to educate someone on electrical conductor material, to actual electrical contact surface area, to size/volume of conductor for any given application...
There will be the 'BoobTube' educated types that drag 'Skin Effect' into a low voltage DC conversation,
Simply because they saw it somewhere and don't understand it, but they *Think* it makes them 'Sound Smart'...

You CAN do a small 'Hobby' size system fairly easily without a specific education,
Buy some parts, connect them, see results.
When you want a larger, well balanced system that is going to run for years in all conditions...
That can NOT be learned on 'YouTube', you will need an actual education for that, and again, educations aren't cheap or 'Easy'...

1. APPLICATION,
2. APPLICATION,
3. APPLICATION,
Are the three rules that ALWAYS apply to everything.
If you don't know the what & why of the application, it's not going to efficient or long lived... Wasted money & time...

I don't do 'Stand By'.
I'm either charging or discharging, the state of charge is constantly changing...
Most of the solar power USERS (opposed to 'Stand By') guys are in the same situation.
Since I've TESTED (a year or more in duration) everything from Edison Iron/Alkaline, iron nickel, lead/acid, ni-cad, nickel/metal, LFP, ect.
Right now, LFP best suits my requirements for charge density, longevity, safety and environmental factors (corrosion, etc).

There is a reason some of old farts have a handle on things, we have a lot of experience, a lot of practical or formal education, made a lot of mistakes and learned to correct those mistakes, ect.
It boils down to time/cost of education, while watching boobtube (short attention span theater) where you can't assume anything is true...
Well, all I can say is good luck with that, being duped and hornswoggled is part of education, either you get things correct, or you don't...
(Yes, I just used 'Hornswoggled' in a sentence! ;) )
 
JeepHammer said:
*I* (personally) think this thread proves this forum is headed down the path to venting and rants rather than information sharing.
Pointing out something silly on boobtube is one thing, but taking the 'My Way Or Highway' approach gets nobody anywhere.

When I said I was 'Testing' LFP, they were 'Experimental' (for me) for two years and wasn't ready to chuck my lead/acid just yet I got jumped on from both LFP and LA fans...
Everything has a learning curve, I learned about LA which took about two years, including visiting manufacturers, talking to engineers, etc before I figured out how to keep LA alive & happy.

I don't much care for "Opinion"...
Opinions are subjective, subject to personal observations, specific faults or strengths, specific applications.
I'm happy to hear someone's opinion & experience, but I ask questions, get details, see if that APPLICATION is similar to mine...

As used in APPLICATION, Lead/Acid is very good at 'Stand By' where it's not used, or used very little.
This isn't what my application is, I use the snot out of my batteries.
AND, since seeing the sun isn't a guarantee, they don't do well with being deeply discharged or discharged for longer periods of time.
I experienced it first hand in my systems, and in other systems for 25 years.

Since this is a solar forum,
And since *MY* (personal) solar system is constantly either CHARGING, OR DISCHARGING,
Not much in between, almost no 'Stand By' or 'Float',
And almost no static charge level, just sitting at a specific charge level,
*I* (personally) have found LFP to fit *MY* specific application.

I'm not an "Armchair" or "YouTube" expert. I'm not a battery science engineer, and don't pretend to be one on the internet... :rolleyes:

I'm also not a 'Fan Boy', things get tested and have to PROVE they do a better job that a different way of doing thing. No 'Knee-Jerk' or jumping around from one to another idea as someone makes claims.
If it doesn't go through the proof testing, for A SPECIFIC APPLICATION I don't switch because a random 'someone' else says I should...

Actual first hand research, education, is slow and costly, every switch I make costs me money and time...
'Talk' is cheap... It's not THEIR MONEY they are spending when they 'Talk' someone into using something that doesn't fit the APPLICATION...

From TRYING to educate someone on electrical conductor material, to actual electrical contact surface area, to size/volume of conductor for any given application...
There will be the 'BoobTube' educated types that drag 'Skin Effect' into a low voltage DC conversation,
Simply because they saw it somewhere and don't understand it, but they *Think* it makes them 'Sound Smart'...

You CAN do a small 'Hobby' size system fairly easily without a specific education,
Buy some parts, connect them, see results.
When you want a larger, well balanced system that is going to run for years in all conditions...
That can NOT be learned on 'YouTube', you will need an actual education for that, and again, educations aren't cheap or 'Easy'...

1. APPLICATION,
2. APPLICATION,
3. APPLICATION,
Are the three rules that ALWAYS apply to everything.
If you don't know the what & why of the application, it's not going to efficient or long lived... Wasted money & time...

I don't do 'Stand By'.
I'm either charging or discharging, the state of charge is constantly changing...
Most of the solar power USERS (opposed to 'Stand By') guys are in the same situation.
Since I've TESTED (a year or more in duration) everything from Edison Iron/Alkaline, iron nickel, lead/acid, ni-cad, nickel/metal, LFP, ect.
Right now, LFP best suits my requirements for charge density, longevity, safety and environmental factors (corrosion, etc).

There is a reason some of old farts have a handle on things, we have a lot of experience, a lot of practical or formal education, made a lot of mistakes and learned to correct those mistakes, ect.
It boils down to time/cost of education, while watching boobtube (short attention span theater) where you can't assume anything is true...
Well, all I can say is good luck with that, being duped and hornswoggled is part of education, either you get things correct, or you don't...
(Yes, I just used 'Hornswoggled' in a sentence! ;) )
Click to expand...

89C74B0F-6FA8-4A65-B212-2DB381A723E1.gif
 
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