diy solar

diy solar

Running a GFCI outlet from inverter.

?

I certainly wouldn't encourage someone to tempt fate by making a habit out of it. But I've done it and know for sure it is OK. Maybe I'll get a video soon.

I would use an incandescent light bulb to test prior to bonding N-G. Voltmeter without load doesn't tell the whole story.

Of course lamp between L-G could make G hot. So know what you're doing and don't touch anything while briefly making the test connection.
 
I would use an incandescent light bulb to test prior to bonding N-G. Voltmeter without load doesn't tell the whole story.

Of course lamp between L-G could make G hot. So know what you're doing and don't touch anything while briefly making the test connection.
I was simply talking about touching live wires while insulated from any grounded surfaces. The neutral-ground bond is a matter of manufacturer.
 
Ya know, grounding discussions suck…
I have learned how to do many things in solar rather easy… balancing batts , wiring , all the Ohms suggestions( ha)….. how to earn the money to buy good stuff …how to hide the cost from the wife …even how to hook it all up to look good and run great…BUT…
Every time I think I have got a somewhat basic grip on grounding issue , everyone in the forum weighs in on “grounding“ …whatever the reason or topic , I read about 10 different well meant comments by people much smarter than me that evolve into every known possible scenario that could be an issue or a way to die or why this and why that,and start conflicting with each other and throwing out different theories and then causing me to doubt everything I have done….. it’s depressing…
At that point sometimes I walk outside and look at my system and say out loud ….

“ Obviously, I have not the slightest idea what I am doing… I’m Gona get electrocuted”

I can’t be the only one…

I don’t think I have ever encountered a topic other than marriage , that is so contradictory, ambiguous and mysterious to so many.

J.
The confusion seems to stem from the fact that people don't know that electricity only flows in complete circuits and that electricity doesn't just "go to earth" .
 
The confusion seems to stem from the fact that people don't know that electricity only flows in complete circuits and that electricity doesn't just "go to earth" .
While certainly a possibility I tend to believe it is the difficulty with understanding the different roles that neutral and ground play.
 
The confusion seems to stem from the fact that people don't know that electricity only flows in complete circuits and that electricity doesn't just "go to earth" .

The next step in understanding is about empty space between conductors of the circuit, and geometry.
Area and separation (parallel plates, or just wires) makes for capacitance. Also magnetic coupling, inductance.
Ratio of those two gives impedance. No so important for most power circuits, but key to signal integrity in communications and high speed digital control signals.

Dielectric affects propagation velocity (impedance does not.) Magnetic materials can do the same but not often encountered in signal propagation. Other structures, such as a railroad tie configuration of orthogonal conductors increases capacitance but does NOT reduce inductance. That is called a "Meta-material" and serves as a delay line.

This is how I "see" electromagnetic fields, having designed, simulated, measured such things.

Circuit does not actually have to be complete for current to flow. No current flows through a capacitor. "Displacement current" refers to the apparent current in a capacitor, but no charge actually lows, just E-field grows.

You can get a shock from the current flowing in a wire with only capacitance completing the circuit. That's how to get a shock from PV panel frames even when there is no leakage.

While certainly a possibility I tend to believe it is the difficulty with understanding the different roles that neutral and ground play.

That too. For AC wiring we ground one side or center tap. Things would function without that, but over-current protection and shock safety is designed based on that assumption.

Things like floating neutral (or return plane) cause interference. So does bonding neutral to ground in multiple places. I encounter both in electronics. Ethernet RJ-45 connectors for instance often get connected wrong, hooking digital ground to chassis where not intended. This helps keep me employed.
 
Ya know, grounding discussions suck…

I don’t think I have ever encountered a topic other than marriage , that is so contradictory, ambiguous and mysterious to so many.

J.
Grounds can be weird.

@sunshine_eggo Has some links in his sig. Watch the one with Mike Holt / NEC about grounding. It actually explains it pretty well and clarified some 'why' things for me when it comes to house grounding, and not grounding sub-panels, but it boils down to: You should only have one reference point for above ground devices to (earth) ground. If you have more than one then you have another path for electricity to travel to "ground" which can be dangerous and cause a problem.

Moons ago, doing some testing on a line out to a Hot-Tub with a GFCI breaker back when I was wiring for a pool company I discovered something I always thought was interesting. Drive a rod in the ground, attach a wire roll it out 150 ft away drive another rod, put a meter between the two and you will likely read a significant voltage. But they should both be 'ground' right? People smarter than us have done the research, and they still kind of argue over some of the finer points, but based on Holt's video it starts to make sense when you watch the current flow. Anything that conducts has resistance albeit possibly extremely low, and electricity always prefers the path of lowest resistance. Some electricity will go down the higher resistance paths (see Mr Ohm). Multiple paths can make the electricity double back on the other path.

As an electronics guy, the other thing that always confused was how a portable radio could possibly work since the signal inducted in the antenna does not have a path to 'ground'. Ground is relative. In a radio, or an RV, or any large object ground becomes the most dense thing on the object. So in a portable radio you basically create a ground plane for the inducted signal to reference, with the battery and foil. In a car/rv it's the chassis/frame. Since a vehicle is insulated from earth, it becomes it's own little domain of traveling electrons. I knew a guy with a positive ground VW, I helped convert it. There is another idea that can be hard to truly grok, why that is more better.
 
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The next step in understanding is about empty space between conductors of the circuit, and geometry.
Area and separation (parallel plates, or just wires) makes for capacitance. Also magnetic coupling, inductance.
Ratio of those two gives impedance. No so important for most power circuits, but key to signal integrity in communications and high speed digital control signals.

Dielectric affects propagation velocity (impedance does not.) Magnetic materials can do the same but not often encountered in signal propagation. Other structures, such as a railroad tie configuration of orthogonal conductors increases capacitance but does NOT reduce inductance. That is called a "Meta-material" and serves as a delay line.

This is how I "see" electromagnetic fields, having designed, simulated, measured such things.

Circuit does not actually have to be complete for current to flow. No current flows through a capacitor. "Displacement current" refers to the apparent current in a capacitor, but no charge actually lows, just E-field grows.

You can get a shock from the current flowing in a wire with only capacitance completing the circuit. That's how to get a shock from PV panel frames even when there is no leakage.



That too. For AC wiring we ground one side or center tap. Things would function without that, but over-current protection and shock safety is designed based on that assumption.

Things like floating neutral (or return plane) cause interference. So does bonding neutral to ground in multiple places. I encounter both in electronics. Ethernet RJ-45 connectors for instance often get connected wrong, hooking digital ground to chassis where not intended. This helps keep me employed.
Ya seee…ya see……….!
now I need a drink…
J.
 
Grounds can be weird.

@sunshine_eggo Has some links in his sig. Watch the one with Mike Holt / NEC about grounding. It actually explains it pretty well and clarified some 'why' things for me when it comes to house grounding, and not grounding sub-panels, but it boils down to: You should only have one reference point for above ground devices to (earth) ground. If you have more than one then you have another path for electricity to travel to "ground" which can be dangerous and cause a problem.

Moons ago, doing some testing on a line out to a Hot-Tub with a GFCI breaker back when I was wiring for a pool company I discovered something I always thought was interesting. Drive a rod in the ground, attach a wire roll it out 150 ft away drive another rod, put a meter between the two and you will likely read a significant voltage. But they should both be 'ground' right? People smarter than us have done the research, and they still kind of argue over some of the finer points, but based on Holt's video it starts to make sense when you watch the current flow. Anything that conducts has resistance albeit possibly extremely low, and electricity always prefers the path of lowest resistance. Some electricity will go down the higher resistance paths (see Mr Ohm). Multiple paths can make the electricity double back on the other path.

As an electronics guy, the other thing that always confused was how a portable radio could possibly work since the signal inducted in the antenna does not have a path to 'ground'. Ground is relative. In a radio, or an RV, or any large object ground becomes the most dense thing on the object. So in a portable radio you basically create a ground plane for the inducted signal to reference, with the battery and foil. In a car/rv it's the chassis/frame. Since a vehicle is insulated from earth, it becomes it's own little domain of traveling electrons. I knew a guy with a positive ground VW, I helped convert it. There is another idea that can be hard to truly grok, why that is more better.
No, grounds ARE weird …. not can be weird … they are totally insane weird….
 
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No Grounds are created, by the electricity suppliers or yourself through an inverter or generator. Different countries have different ideas when it comes to grounding of neutrals both of which have inherant drawbacks. In the European or originally the British system the neutral was only grounded at the point of supply but the slight drawback was that as the neutral is a current carrying conductor there comes a volt drop between the current carrying neutral and the non current carrying ground or Earth as it is refered to in other places. In the USA and I do not know how many other countries around the world the neutral is grounded at the source and again at every consumers panel, which is great as there is no difference in EMF between the neutral and ground but this is because the ground has become a current carrying conductor parallel with the neutral. This step can create another problem as you no longer have any control over the current flow in the neutral and ground and can cause a possible hazzardous condition if you break a ground for any reason as you could find a potential differnce between the ground and its terminal block, or lets say a workman unbolts the flange of of a gasolene line and when he breaks the line apart there is a potential differnce due to current flowing through that metal line as a nearby neutral had a poor connection. So in this sytem the breaking of any ground conductor could leave you with a potential differnce that could cause harm. Then we talk about grounded DC systems and that becomes another ball game.
 
You know the average man on the street doesn't even know what happens to the electricity when you flip the light switch off, it must drain off somewhere right LOL
 
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