Schneider XW6848+ Cleanup

[extrafu]

Hello,

I've had this inverter for the past 7 years. Overwall it worked great beside throwing now and then a F63 error (AC Overload) when turning off the generator. I've been in discussions many times with Schneider on this with no progress.

In the past few days, after the generator running for about 1.5h (to charge the batteries), the inverter is starting to throw a "FET1 Over Temperature" warning. Room temperature hasn't much changed in 7 years, airflow is OK, fans seem ok on the inverter, etc.

I've called Schneider to see if I could get some documentation on cleaning up the fans and since I'm not an installer, they won't share anything. Has anyone done it in the past? I would like to make sure both fans are working and remove any dust from the beast before considering replacing it with a XW6848 Pro.

Thanks!

 

[yodamota]

Welcome to the forum!

one thing which comes to mind would be changing the charge rate of the inverter to 90% or 80%. That way the inverter is operating at lower power which might reduce the overheating you are seeing.

that is... if your charge rate is currently set to 100%

 

[extrafu]

Hi @yodamota - thanks for the reply. The rate was 80%, and I lowered down to 75% and I still got the error. I spoke to Schneider and they told me to keep lowering it down until it doesn't make the error anymore. I'll try next at 65% but I don't think it's a sustainable solution. I need the extra charging power since I have a very large battery bank and also, why was it working without an issue for years and it's starting to be one?

I suspect dirt in the fans, or one of them being dead/less effective.

Thanks!

 

[yodamota]

I almost wonder if there is a dead bug or something on the fet board. Not knowing how easy it is to take the unit apart this might be a more indepth approach.

Definitely worth inspecting the fans. I also wonder if you can put an extra fan on the unit. I have a 16w fan which moves a lot of air for being a small fan. Turn the fan on when the generator comes on. You would have to determine the best place to add an extra fan....

 

[Philip53]

Agree on cleaning the oem fans, and adding other(s). My 12 year old XW6048 fan screens have an extremely fine screen and I found it completely scovered with lint and dust. The XW is mounted inside my house so very little dust, but over time....

I recently added another PV array, with the inverter running at max most of the day selling back to the grid, and the unit and new charge controllers were getting very hot. I added a variable speed, double computer fan on top of the XW, pulling hot air up and out. I also mounted a rotary fan on the adjacent wall blowing air over the inverter and charge controllers. This made for a better than 20 degree change in operating temps.

The computer fans on top of the inverter are just out of the picture, but the wall fan is the black one on the lower left.

 

[sollap]

Have you checked the AC voltage? If it's high, the power bridge assembly will run hotter when charging.
Taking out the power bridge to check the heatsink fins, etc is not that hard. I have a manual somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

 

[extrafu]

@yodamota and @Philip53 Thanks for your answers. Very good idea for the additional fan, I could try that too. For the cleaning the OEM fans, must I remove the inverter entirely from the wall? (it's wall hung). I hope not.

@sollap You mean AC voltage coming from the generator? If so when I looked at it now and then it was always around 240V steady (from the Combox's interface). What would be high? Note that on the F63 error I get now and then, I *never ever* got that from my 2nd generator, only the 1st one that I mainly use (Kohler Resa 14). A manual would be awesome if you can find it

Thanks!

 

[hwy17]

You could consider switching to a chargeverter generator input. But maybe it wouldn't achieve the same automatic operation than you're used to.

 

[extrafu]

@hwy17 Thanks for your answer. I indeed considered it (the EG4 more specifically). Automatic operation is indeed a problem although it could work with the AGS' stop voltage. An other issue, at least with the EG4, was the fact it's limited to 100A.

 

[sollap]

I didn't know what kind of generator you were running, or when the voltage was last checked. If it was running in the high 240's or more, it would add more heat.
Here's a link to the manual - https://solar.se.com/eu/wp-content/...-maintenance-guide-977-0017-01-01_rev-b-1.pdf
It's for the XW, but the power bridge is pretty much the same for all of them.

I would start by removing the screen at the bottom and trying to see through the vanes of the fan with a flashlight. If you can see the bottom of the bridge's heatsink and it looks clean, there may not be anything to gain by removing the bridge. Taking the front cover off the unit will let you see the top of the bridge without removing it.

 

[extrafu]

@sollap Awesome! I'll have a look at this during the weekend. If I'm unsure I'll post pics here. Thank you so much for the maintenance guide, I'll go through it.

 

[Philip53]

Very good idea for the additional fan, I could try that too. For the cleaning the OEM fans, must I remove the inverter entirely from the wall? (it's wall hung). I hope not.

My older XW has two screens located on the bottom of the inverter - one on each side. I had a problem getting to mine as I had originally installed a Midnite Solar E-Panel directly to the bottom which made it difficult to get acces. Mine is also wall mounted, and I did not remove anything other than the E-Panel cover, which gave me access to the bottom of the XW. I used a toothbrush taped to an extension to scrub the screens and a vacuum extension to suck it up. I then took a large battery powered leaf blower and blew up through the unit to blow all the lint & dust that I could, out of the unit. Don't do the blower trick until you clean the screen.

It will make a huge difference in the airflow!!

 

[Gttnsun]

The fans blow out the top of the inverter, make sure nothing is stored on top of the inverter. When the inverter is hot you should be able to feel the fan blowing the air out.

 

[extrafu]

I guess the filter was dirty... I took a pic before and after taking it out. I've cleaned it with water and I'm letting it dry for now. I'll reinstall it later today. All that dirt fell off on the wires when I took it out. I've looked using a flashlight through the hole after removing the filter and the rest seems pretty clean!

 

[Gttnsun]

That filter was dirty, did that solve your heat problem?

 

[400bird]

I'd recommend cleaning that filter more frequently than 7 year cycles

 

[hwy17]

I'll take 9:1 odds on the filter clean not solving the problem described. But still cool to find out and we all learn from your report.

Not catching the generator stop surge sounds to me like a core electrical function is weakened, rather than an overheating event which would be slower.

 

[robbob2112]

The second picture is about what I would expect from 7 years dust. I've seen the insides of desktop computers and servers dirtier than that. I am sure the blow out will help with any heating issue, but I just don't see that as the problem.

I would take odds on either a dead fan underperforming or stopped or a bug shorted across something. From what I have read about the units the boards are conformal coated so the bug theory would only apply to something sticking up.

 

[extrafu]

@Mtnsun @400bird I'll do a generator test tomorrow morning - let it run for a good 2 hours and see. Normally I was getting the "FET1 Over Temperature" warning about 1 hour after the generator started - so we'll see. I've also put back my charge rate to 80% like it was before. And indeed, I'll clean things more frequently now, since I know how to do it.

@hwy17 By the generator surge at stop, you mean the F63 error I am getting? If so, I've been getting that error for about 2 years. One way to avoid getting it is "wait" a bit more after the absorption cycle begins (I still have lead acid batteries that I plan to replace this summer with LiFePO4). Typically at 80% charge rate, I charge the batteries at around 110 amps. Once absorption is reached, I let the amperage taper down to 60-70amps and I manually turn off the generator. When doing that, no fault. If I let the inverter stops the generator when absorption is reached, I'm getting the fault almost all the time.

I've found someone that had a similar issue with the F63 error with small AC load: http://veridicalsystems.com/gallery/Home/PV/Schneider/F63/index.html -- he ultimately installed an EMC/EFI filter for his grid AC-input. It's something that I consider doing for my generator (Kohler 14 RESA). I'm still educating myself about the relevance of using this for my problem. I would prefer finding and fixing the real cause.

Thanks,

 

[hwy17]

By the generator surge at stop, you mean the F63 error I am getting?

I may have been confused and didn't read the thread closely enough to see the separate overheating problem.

 

[robbob2112]

So, on other smaller electronics that have overheat of a single component I have disassembled and replaced the heat sink materials. That goes for power supplies, computers and some other tools that would run until hot then stop until hours later when it cooled off. As they age the cheap ceramic compound or tape or whatever dried up and didn't age with it.

I am not saying that is your problem in this case, just pointing it out as a possibility. And if you are out of warranty and it quits all together so you have nothing to loose it might be worth the chance.

 

[sollap]

I think the cleaned filter will resolve your overheating problem, but since a bug or something shorted across the terminals of the thermistor has been brought upa couple of times, I figured I would show the sensor locations in a couple of pictures. This first image is from the maintenance manual, I circled the approximate locations of the two sensors. You can see one of them in the lower red circle. The other one is slightly under the capacitor board and wouldn't be visible even without the labeling in this image:


This next picture is of a power board with blown FETs. The capacitor board has been removed and you can more clearly see the temp sensors.
There isn't a conformal coating on this board that I can detect. Multimeter probes make contact easily with the pads and component legs.

 

[extrafu]

@sollap Wow, thanks for all this amazing information! I'll post back tomorrow morning about my findings after running the generator for 2 hours.

@hwy17 I think I'll open a separate thread for the F63 errors. This one is really about the FET warning issue, sorry for the confusion.

 

[400bird]

This first image is from the maintenance manual

Those are great pictures, I didn't even know there was a maintenance manual for the XW. Can you share this? I'd love to have a copy.

 

[sollap]

https://solar.se.com/eu/wp-content/...-maintenance-guide-977-0017-01-01_rev-b-1.pdf