Signature Solar EG4-LL 400ah (12V) Server Rack Battery Issue???

[SoCalKevin]

Hey All

I recently upgraded my off grid camper to (2) of the 400ah EG4 from Signature Solar (in parallel) and experiencing a weird glitch.

My system:
Victron Multiplus 3000
Victron Cerbo GX
All wired with huge 4/0 cable

Before i swapped batteries (was running ONE 300ah lifeblue), i had zero issues, so i am thinking it is BMS related but not sure.

All my high draw appliances work fine, hot water heater, coffee maker, microwave, etc... I even tried the hot water heater and coffee maker together as a test, and drawing close to 3000 watts, still no issues.

But now, with my air conditioner, when the compressor kicks on, i am getting a low voltage alarm and the inverter is shutting off. All LEDs on the batteries are green, no faults on the batteries, voltage checks fine. The air conditioner draws at max 70amps, much less than the coffee maker and hot water heater.

The air conditioner is the nice Houghton Bel-Aire unit with soft start to prevent the spiking, etc....

This never did this before in almost 2 years of using the old single life blue battery.

Any ideas on what i can start checking? All wiring is even bigger and more robust than required, and i triple checked all connections and they are tight.

I have the BMS software and hooked up the laptop, but its pretty dang cryptic and i am not seeing any issues or alarms

Thanks

 

[400bird]

I'd recommend measuring the DC voltage at the inverter as you try to start the AC unit.
I'd bet the starting surge of your AC unit is too high for the batteries and they are faulting and cutting voltage momentarily. Or you've got a bad connection and voltage drop, but that seems less likely if you can run other high watt loads.

I googled that AC unit. The specs show a PTC soft start. I suspect that means you'll still see a starting surge, just significantly lower that without the soft start. An inverter style compressor eliminates the starting surge.
It also listed an input power higher than you mentioned.

"Tested input power1380W/1192W"

At 12 volts that's about 130 amps running depending on your inverter efficiency.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

What is the start up amperage? If you have these in series you are limited to 100a output.
It might be reading the start up amps as a short, cutting the voltage for a second, then starting back up without issues. If you are connected to a computer see if there are any fault codes etc. Feel free to contact our tech support team directly, they help people figure these specific issues out all the time.

 

[SoCalKevin]

What is the start up amperage? If you have these in series you are limited to 100a output.
It might be reading the start up amps as a short, cutting the voltage for a second, then starting back up without issues. If you are connected to a computer see if there are any fault codes etc. Feel free to contact our tech support team directly, they help people figure these specific issues out all the time.

Thanks Richard.

They are in parallel so my limit should be 200a right?

The AC has a built in soft start, and although the start amps vary, i dont recall ever seeing it over 100ah or so.

I went into the BMS with the software and i am not seeing any fault codes or errors at all. Even tried running the BMS monitoring while i attempted start, and it shut down, and didnt produce an error code.

I then just connected one of the 400ah EG4 by itself, same thing,

For poops and grins, i disconnected the batteries and reconnected my single 300ah lifeblue and it works with no issues.

 

[SoCalKevin]

I'd recommend measuring the DC voltage at the inverter as you try to start the AC unit.
I'd bet the starting surge of your AC unit is too high for the batteries and they are faulting and cutting voltage momentarily. Or you've got a bad connection and voltage drop, but that seems less likely if you can run other high watt loads.

I googled that AC unit. The specs show a PTC soft start. I suspect that means you'll still see a starting surge, just significantly lower that without the soft start. An inverter style compressor eliminates the starting surge.
It also listed an input power higher than you mentioned.

"Tested input power1380W/1192W"

At 12 volts that's about 130 amps running depending on your inverter efficiency.

That is great info! Thank you!

What i forgot is that i was reading the amps off of the Cerbo screen, which is taking the solar input into account and only giving me an overall.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Thanks Richard.

They are in parallel so my limit should be 200a right?

The AC has a built in soft start, and although the start amps vary, i dont recall ever seeing it over 100ah or so.

I went into the BMS with the software and i am not seeing any fault codes or errors at all. Even tried running the BMS monitoring while i attempted start, and it shut down, and didnt produce an error code.

I then just connected one of the 400ah EG4 by itself, same thing,

For poops and grins, i disconnected the batteries and reconnected my single 300ah lifeblue and it works with no issues.

Yes in parallel you double the amps. PM me a video of what you are seeing. It would be good.

 

[SoCalKevin]

DM sent

Seems a password is needed to change anything in the BMS

Thanks

 

[SoCalKevin]

Very Frustrating Morning...

I just spent an hour and a half on the phone with Signature Solar Tech Support.

Running the BMS software while on the phone and starting the AC.

Got the Discharge OC error/trip. So tech and i agree its a BMS issue...

Then we go through the screens of the BMS software. For BOTH batteries, the main menus list the capacity and SOC correctly.

However, on one of the screens, for both batteries, it lists the capacity at 100ah and the SOC at 383% or something close to that. Odd...

So we go through and he gives me some things to try to change. But the BMS password they have doesnt work, and i cant make any changes.

After that, he tells me its a Victron issue, and to call victron and he has no other ideas.

For more poops and grins, i connected an older low quality AGM i had in the garage to the Multiplus, and that also works with the AC unit without issues. So my old lifeblue, and my old AGM work fine, so that confirms to me its a BMS issue with the EG4 and i cant get in and change it... UGH

As of now, i spent $3000 on nice paperweights and quite frustrated...

Leaving for vacation at the end of the week where the AC will be needed.

Open to options/ideas.... Maybe open them up and bypass the BMS?

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Very Frustrating Morning...

I just spent an hour and a half on the phone with Signature Solar Tech Support.

Running the BMS software while on the phone and starting the AC.

Got the Discharge OC error/trip. So tech and i agree its a BMS issue...

Then we go through the screens of the BMS software. For BOTH batteries, the main menus list the capacity and SOC correctly.

However, on one of the screens, for both batteries, it lists the capacity at 100ah and the SOC at 383% or something close to that. Odd...

So we go through and he gives me some things to try to change. But the BMS password they have doesnt work, and i cant make any changes.

After that, he tells me its a Victron issue, and to call victron and he has no other ideas.

For more poops and grins, i connected an older low quality AGM i had in the garage to the Multiplus, and that also works with the AC unit without issues. So my old lifeblue, and my old AGM work fine, so that confirms to me its a BMS issue with the EG4 and i cant get in and change it... UGH

As of now, i spent $3000 on nice paperweights and quite frustrated...

Leaving for vacation at the end of the week where the AC will be needed.

Open to options/ideas.... Maybe open them up and bypass the BMS?

I'll talk with the tech you worked with this morning - just to verify how many cycles have you put the batteries through. When they ship - the SOC doesn't account for discharge while idle, so sometimes it takes a few cycles for the SOC to re-balance and show correctly, but again normally that is fixed after a few full charge/discharge cycles. The way that shipping lanes right now are is causing batteries to sit in port longer than normal so this is an issue many manufacturers are dealing with. The BMS password he provided is for our other manufacturer (the one you PM'd me) so I'll get with him to correct that. What amperage does your AC pull? I wouldn't recommend bypassing the BMS, it's there for many reasons but want to help. I'll respond to your PM regarding all the questions you brought up.

 

[SoCalKevin]

I'll talk with the tech you worked with this morning - just to verify how many cycles have you put the batteries through. When they ship - the SOC doesn't account for discharge while idle, so sometimes it takes a few cycles for the SOC to re-balance and show correctly, but again normally that is fixed after a few full charge/discharge cycles. The way that shipping lanes right now are is causing batteries to sit in port longer than normal so this is an issue many manufacturers are dealing with. The BMS password he provided is for our other manufacturer (the one you PM'd me) so I'll get with him to correct that. What amperage does your AC pull? I wouldn't recommend bypassing the BMS, it's there for many reasons but want to help. I'll respond to your PM regarding all the questions you brought up.

Thanks Richard

As of now, the BMS is showing just one cycle. I havent used them much.

The Air Conditioner pulls 42-ish amps (at 120v) when the compressor first cycles on from everything i am reading, but it happens so quick that i am unable to measure it exactly.

Thank you

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Hey @SoCalKevin just so we don't have 2 identical threads, I'll be doing all my future replies in the other thread you started. For anyone who finds this and would like to follow up, here is a link:

Victron Multiplus 3000 and EG4 Lifepower Battery Compatibility Issues?

Hey All I have a Victron Multiplus 3000 inverter in my Off Grid Camper that i use to power everything, Induction Stove, Hot Water Heater, Microwave, and a Houghton Bel Air Air Conditioner. I have used this for approximately 2 years with a single Lifeblue 300ah battery without issue. I just...

diysolarforum.com

 

[SoCalKevin]

Ok, so here is an update...

NOTE: Both @RichardfromSignatureSolar and everyone i have talked to at @Signature Solar has been amazingly helpful trying to troubleshoot this and have even offered a full refund if i couldnt get it to work. Top notch customer service!!! This is NOT a rant against them!

NOTE #2: There was zero issues with these batteries and the Victron Multiplus drawing even much higher loads with the water heater and coffee maker running. This is an isolated issue with the air conditioner.

I went through every single connection on my system and made sure it was tight and secure, and then did more testing, even had an electrical engineering buddy supervise to make sure i was doing everything right...

The highest draw we saw was 186a (at 12v) when the compressor kicked on. We did 3 tests and the average was about 184a.

We tested these both as 2 separate batteries, and with them wired in parallel. All same results.

Every single spec listed for these batteries says this should not be an issue and the BMS should handle it fine, even as single units.

Before proceeding, i contacted Victron 2x and researched the issue on the Victron forum. Everything pointed to battery BMS issue.

I disassembled one of the batteries, which was MUCH nicer quality and durability than i expected, and was pleasantly surprised to see the BMS was very simple to bypass.

Bypassed the BMS on one of the batteries, reconnected it, started Air Conditioner, and it started up and ran flawlessly for an hour. Spike at start up was around 170a and no issues.

Bypassed the second BMS, tested that one separately and also performed perfectly.

Connected batteries in parallel and put everything back together with both BMS bypassed. Everything A-Ok

The BMS software is password protected so its more of a battery MONITORING software, and NOT a battery MANAGEMENT software.

Going through the BMS software on my laptop shows some weird stuff.

Other than the random mispelled words, on both batteries, it is listing the capacity as 100ah and a SOC of 386% on one of the screens, not 400ah.

But on another screen it lists it properly. This is not a changeable setting, weird. I will attach pics below.

Soooo.. At the end of the day and a lot of testing and troubleshooting, i am still happy and satisfied with these batteries, but i will be replacing the BMS on both of them ASAP with a better, more programmable BMS unit with more stable and user friendly software.

Yeah, i am aware i just voided my warranty, etc, but it is what it is... I only have so much free time i have to make what i got work

Hopefully i dont end up having to post in the UP IN SMOKE section of this forum. HAHAHAHAHA.

Here are some photos:

 

[jberger]

I get that same "Batty" ah setting of 100ah on mine, but having discharged it a couple of times, it doesn't appear to be an issue seems purely cosmetic.

I think it's inrush current and it's tripping the OC sensor since it's set to 2 sec.
If it could be changed to 5-7 sec I think it would probably fix the issue.

 

[SoCalKevin]

I get that same "Batty" ah setting of 100ah on mine, but having discharged it a couple of times, it doesn't appear to be an issue seems purely cosmetic.

I think it's inrush current and it's tripping the OC sensor since it's set to 2 sec.
If it could be changed to 5-7 sec I think it would probably fix the issue.

Thanks @jberger

Someone else had suggested that may help as well, but due to the top secret password, it can’t be changed to test it.

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Ok, so here is an update...

NOTE: Both @RichardfromSignatureSolar and everyone i have talked to at @Signature Solar has been amazingly helpful trying to troubleshoot this and have even offered a full refund if i couldnt get it to work. Top notch customer service!!! This is NOT a rant against them!

NOTE #2: There was zero issues with these batteries and the Victron Multiplus drawing even much higher loads with the water heater and coffee maker running. This is an isolated issue with the air conditioner.

I went through every single connection on my system and made sure it was tight and secure, and then did more testing, even had an electrical engineering buddy supervise to make sure i was doing everything right...

The highest draw we saw was 186a (at 12v) when the compressor kicked on. We did 3 tests and the average was about 184a.

We tested these both as 2 separate batteries, and with them wired in parallel. All same results.

Every single spec listed for these batteries says this should not be an issue and the BMS should handle it fine, even as single units.

Before proceeding, i contacted Victron 2x and researched the issue on the Victron forum. Everything pointed to battery BMS issue.

I disassembled one of the batteries, which was MUCH nicer quality and durability than i expected, and was pleasantly surprised to see the BMS was very simple to bypass.

Bypassed the BMS on one of the batteries, reconnected it, started Air Conditioner, and it started up and ran flawlessly for an hour. Spike at start up was around 170a and no issues.

Bypassed the second BMS, tested that one separately and also performed perfectly.

Connected batteries in parallel and put everything back together with both BMS bypassed. Everything A-Ok

The BMS software is password protected so its more of a battery MONITORING software, and NOT a battery MANAGEMENT software.

Going through the BMS software on my laptop shows some weird stuff.

Other than the random mispelled words, on both batteries, it is listing the capacity as 100ah and a SOC of 386% on one of the screens, not 400ah.

But on another screen it lists it properly. This is not a changeable setting, weird. I will attach pics below.

Soooo.. At the end of the day and a lot of testing and troubleshooting, i am still happy and satisfied with these batteries, but i will be replacing the BMS on both of them ASAP with a better, more programmable BMS unit with more stable and user friendly software.

Yeah, i am aware i just voided my warranty, etc, but it is what it is... I only have so much free time i have to make what i got work

Hopefully i dont end up having to post in the UP IN SMOKE section of this forum. HAHAHAHAHA.

Here are some photos:

View attachment 91549

View attachment 91550

View attachment 91551

View attachment 91552

View attachment 91553

From the inception from all the threads regarding issues with the eg4 or lifepo4 batteries from SS all diagnostic seems to point to the bms .
Its a pity i really liked this battery when it was labeled egall
Now.i dont really like them.

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Ok, so here is an update...

NOTE: Both @RichardfromSignatureSolar and everyone i have talked to at @Signature Solar has been amazingly helpful trying to troubleshoot this and have even offered a full refund if i couldnt get it to work. Top notch customer service!!! This is NOT a rant against them!

NOTE #2: There was zero issues with these batteries and the Victron Multiplus drawing even much higher loads with the water heater and coffee maker running. This is an isolated issue with the air conditioner.

I went through every single connection on my system and made sure it was tight and secure, and then did more testing, even had an electrical engineering buddy supervise to make sure i was doing everything right...

The highest draw we saw was 186a (at 12v) when the compressor kicked on. We did 3 tests and the average was about 184a.

We tested these both as 2 separate batteries, and with them wired in parallel. All same results.

Every single spec listed for these batteries says this should not be an issue and the BMS should handle it fine, even as single units.

Before proceeding, i contacted Victron 2x and researched the issue on the Victron forum. Everything pointed to battery BMS issue.

I disassembled one of the batteries, which was MUCH nicer quality and durability than i expected, and was pleasantly surprised to see the BMS was very simple to bypass.

Bypassed the BMS on one of the batteries, reconnected it, started Air Conditioner, and it started up and ran flawlessly for an hour. Spike at start up was around 170a and no issues.

Bypassed the second BMS, tested that one separately and also performed perfectly.

Connected batteries in parallel and put everything back together with both BMS bypassed. Everything A-Ok

The BMS software is password protected so its more of a battery MONITORING software, and NOT a battery MANAGEMENT software.

Going through the BMS software on my laptop shows some weird stuff.

Other than the random mispelled words, on both batteries, it is listing the capacity as 100ah and a SOC of 386% on one of the screens, not 400ah.

But on another screen it lists it properly. This is not a changeable setting, weird. I will attach pics below.

Soooo.. At the end of the day and a lot of testing and troubleshooting, i am still happy and satisfied with these batteries, but i will be replacing the BMS on both of them ASAP with a better, more programmable BMS unit with more stable and user friendly software.

Yeah, i am aware i just voided my warranty, etc, but it is what it is... I only have so much free time i have to make what i got work

Hopefully i dont end up having to post in the UP IN SMOKE section of this forum. HAHAHAHAHA.

Here are some photos:

View attachment 91549

View attachment 91550

View attachment 91551

View attachment 91552

View attachment 91553

At least you got on to the software .
I had a techie try to get solid connectivity with no success.
I notice both the old and new software are like really old designed sometime around 2000.

 

[SoCalKevin]

From the inception from all the threads regarding issues with the eg4 or lifepo4 batteries from SS all diagnostic seems to point to the bms .
Its a pity i really liked this battery when it was labeled egall
Now.i dont really like them.

Well…. The build quality is pretty dang impressive for the money, so I still think it’s worth the cost even if the BMS has to be replaced, in my opinion.

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Well…. The build quality is pretty dang impressive for the money, so I still think it’s worth the cost even if the BMS has to be replaced, in my opinion.

Yes same here

 

[Tigercjn]

Just a thought, have you a decent size DC cable going from each battery to the Multi. At high amperage, small cables have a large voltage drop.
I would have a set of 2 cables going direct from the multi going to each battery, I would not daisy chain the batteries together.

 

[SoCalKevin]

Just a thought, have you a decent size DC cable going from each battery to the Multi. At high amperage, small cables have a large voltage drop.

Yes, all cabling is 4/0 and my longest run is still under 4ft