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SMA Sunny Island - what size breaker are you using?

sgtcrumb

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Hello Sunny Island users!

I'm trying to determine what size breaker to use for a pair of Sunny Island 6048US models. I'm seeing contradictory information.

Section 6.3.2 of the Sunny Island manual (refer to https://files.sma.de/downloads/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-21W.pdf) seems to suggest that a breaker less than 56A be used when connecting AC1. 56A x 120V = 6720 watts, which is quite a bit less than the surge rating of 11,000 watts. I've seen a number of references online suggesting to use a 70 AMP single pole breaker (refer to
).

What size breakers are you folks using?

To clarify, this is for an off-grid setup. The breakers are to be connected to the Sunny Island AC1 terminals. AC2 is not being used in my current design, and if it ever is, it will be for on-demand generator use.

Thanks!
 
The manual states "A circuit breaker with a rated current of a maximum of 56A must be installed." That doesn't sound like a suggestion.
Not sure how many choices you will have regarding actually finding a 56A breaker. You could try searching for a 55 Amp breaker, I found a Siemens. If you don't expect to have any high inrush current loads you could consider going down to a 50A breaker otherwise its probably going to be a 60A breaker. In any case, the 4AWG wire recommended is appropriate for either 50 or 60A
 
Install a 50 amp breaker and feed it with 4 gauge wire and be done with it.

If you're worried about needing the extra 6 amps, you should be installing another Sunny Island anyhow. 50 amp breakers are cheap and available everywhere.
 
Thanks for the feedback. I agree with BentleyJ that the statement in the manual doesn't sound like a suggestion. What I find confusing, is that the Sunny Island datasheet clearly states the Sunny Island 6048 has a surge output of 7000 W / 8400 W / 11000 W for 30 min / 1 min / 3 s respectively. 8400w /120v = 70A, which is exactly what is said to use in the video I linked to. The datasheet also says that the AC input current is "Adjustable between 0 A – 56 A". A 50A breaker would limit the Sunny Island output to 6000 W, before tripping, making those surge ratings pointless.

Obviously, in an AC-coupled system, the PV inverters, or other external sources, are providing power to the micro-grid. The current is flowing in both directions, through the breakers. Depending on system loads and battery SoC, "output AC1" is either consuming current (charging the batteries) or supplying current (inverting current from the batteries). The manual explicitly states "The maximum input current allowed on the Sunny Island is 56 A. Higher input currents must not be connected to the Sunny Island." (6.3.1) This has me thinking that only AC inputs must be limited to 56A. That is, all PV or other AC sources must not exceed 56A. This would make much more sense in my mind. Either way, I'm scratching my head. I sent an email to SMA asking about this.

While on the subject of breakers, the manual also states, in section 6.3.2,

If you want to fuse individual load circuits in a 120 V grid separately, install circuit breakers with a rated current of up to 20 A: the Sunny Island can safely trip circuit breakers of up to 20 A. If you install circuit breakers with a higher rated current, the Sunny Island may not trip these. In this case the DC breaker in the Sunny Island would trip and the Sunny Island would disconnect (see Section 9.5 "Recommissioning After Automatic Shutdown", page 77)

It sure sounds to me that I can forget about using anything more than 20A circuits. What about 30A -40A dual pole circuits for electric ovens, dryers, etc? Are you able to run these in a split-phase Sunny Island system?

Also, to clarify, I'm currently planning for a two SI6048US split-phase system coupled with two SB7.7 PV inverters.

Sunny Island datasheet: https://files.sma.de/downloads/SI6048US-DS-en-28.pdf
 
I agree the recommendation/requirement of no greater than 56A OCP on AC1 doesn't seem right.
I've been considering contacting SMA support to confirm they really meant that, and for their recommended type of breakers.

SI 5048US manual called for 70A max OCP on AC2 input, didn't as for anything on AC1 output. I assumed it could take in 56A from grid/generator and add 40A continuous (5000W from inverter) for 96A continuous output.

SI 6048US manual calls for 70A max on AC2 and 56A max on AC1

Thermal/magnetic breakers are supposed to be run no higher than 80% continuous, to prevent nuisance trips. So 70A OCP is perfect for 56A circuit.
With 56A OCP on AC1, 80% limit would be 44A max, which is less than what SI is rated to deliver.

Magnetic-hydraulic breakers reportedly can be used at 100%, which is why I wanted to see if SMA does recommend them for AC1. Magnetic-hydraulic trip in about a second after moderate overload, rather than sometimes 20 minutes for moderate overload of thermal breakers.

I originally intended to use 70A QO270 breakers on both AC1 and AC2. Because I have 4x SI 6048US and an existing 100A fused knife switch, I stuffed a DIN rail and 2x 63A Schneider Multi-9 2-pole breakers inside it for AC2. Those are also thermal-magnetic so should be good for 51A.

I didn't RTFM (6048US), having already RTFM (5048US) cover to cover, wasn't aware of 56A OCP on AC1 instructions. I put 2x 70A QO270 in protected loads panel and back-fed from AC1. In operation, power handled by inverters reported about 3:1 ratio between parallel inverters. Problem was differing resistance from one QO270 to another.

I disconnected the breakers on AC1, inside wired inverters directly to main lugs of protected loads panel without OCP. That worked fine, with balanced current. I then installed another 2x 63A Schneider Multi-9 2-pole breakers between SI AC1 and the main lugs. That also worked.

18 months later, those breakers tripped. Had been carrying about 25A each, one pair tripped so other pair carried 50A. Within 15 minutes (if not seconds) it also tripped. Warm day.

Those breakers were a used batch. Testing under 60A load, some variation in voltage drop, 80 mV to 120 mV. All held (in a cool garage) except the one which tripped first in use. I swapped in one of the better units and it has been running a couple weeks.

I intend to look for magnetic-hydraulic, maybe 60A.

The manual explicitly states "The maximum input current allowed on the Sunny Island is 56 A. Higher input currents must not be connected to the Sunny Island." (6.3.1) This has me thinking that only AC inputs must be limited to 56A. That is, all PV or other AC sources must not exceed 56A. This would make much more sense in my mind.

With grid backfeed, limit (in US 120/240V market) is 6.7 kW of PV per Sunny Island, because that is 56A x 120V.
Off-grid or otherwise not backfeeding, limit is 12 kW per 6kW Sunny Island. That would be more current, but only to loads; no reason for it to flow back into SI unless there is a fault.

It sure sounds to me that I can forget about using anything more than 20A circuits. What about 30A -40A dual pole circuits for electric ovens, dryers, etc? Are you able to run these in a split-phase Sunny Island system?

That's just a limit on the surge current it can deliver.

SI-6048 "Maximum current (peak value) for 60 ms IAC, max 180 A"

SI-5048 "Maximum current (peak value) for 60 ms IAC, max 120 A"

Magnetic breakers fast-trip at about 5x their rating. 20A would take > 100A, and 30A would take > 150A
If not fast-tripped, lower current like 45A could be carried some 20 minutes before 30A breaker heats up enough to trip. I've used 30A of electric heater to check trip time of 20A breakers, ran about 20 minutes. (will vary with ambient temperature.)

So I think SI-6048 should be able to fast-trip a 30A breaker. I think "trip 20A, not 30A" is left over from SI-5048. If not, inverter would shut off after 60 ms, four cycles of AC line. So you can have larger loads, just know that instead of a fault tripping breaker to disconnect, your power will go out.

If you added a balancing transformer, I think two SI wired for 120/240V would combine their output power, and their peak current, for use on one phase (how well that works depends on how much voltage sag they allow.)


By the way, if slave shuts down, master continues to operate. That means you get 120V delivered to one phase of 120/240V panel. This can be a problem if you have 240V loads, because your 240V loads will be connected in series with 120V loads on the dead phase, and fed 120V to that series connection. A brownout. There is an option (for 3-phase systems) to shut all down in case of lost phase. I need to see if that is available for split-phase configuration. Balancing transformer may also fix the issue.
 
Thanks for the reply Hedges. I've read through a ton of your posts, and MurphyGuy's too. Lots of helpful information.

I've been considering contacting SMA support to confirm they really meant that, and for their recommended type of breakers.

I already did that :) Still waiting for the answer. Ideally, the manual would simply include some wire-diagrams for common systems, with recommended components, so any electrically-competent person can set it up.

With grid backfeed, limit (in US 120/240V market) is 6.7 kW of PV per Sunny Island, because that is 56A x 120V.
Off-grid or otherwise not backfeeding, limit is 12 kW per 6kW Sunny Island. That would be more current, but only to loads; no reason for it to flow back into SI unless there is a fault.

What happens when heavy loads are shut down? As I understand it, the batteries need to absorb that sudden excess energy, which triggers frequency shifting by the SI and throttling by SB. Even if this is only a surge, it could be greater than 56 A, albeit, not long enough to trip a 50 A breaker. Right or wrong, my brain thinks of that as "input current".
 
What happens when heavy loads are shut down? As I understand it, the batteries need to absorb that sudden excess energy, which triggers frequency shifting by the SI and throttling by SB. Even if this is only a surge, it could be greater than 56 A, albeit, not long enough to trip a 50 A breaker. Right or wrong, my brain thinks of that as "input current".

It is input current. And instead of passing through a relay to AC2 grid, it is going to a power transformer where it is stepped down to battery voltage, then put through a switcher into the battery.

Spec says,

"Battery Data
Battery voltage (range) VBat, nom 48 V (41 V to 63 V)
Maximum battery charging current IBat, max 140 A
Continuous charging current IBat, nom 110 A"

140A x 63V = 8820W
8820W / 120V = 74A (or a bit more, due to a couple percent loss)

Thermally, 74A instead of 56A for a second isn't going to be a problem.

"AC power for 1 minute at 77°F (25°C) P1min 8,400 W
AC power for 3 seconds at 77°F (25°C) P3sec 11,000 W"

A thermal breaker would let that pass. I think a magnetic-hydraulic breaker might trip (about 1 second delay for overload), so my idea to use one could be a problem.

While manual says it is OK to have AC coupled PV 2x the wattage of Sunny Boy, it isn't clear how a "load dump" of 12kW could be handled by one Sunny Island. Having 12 kW of production and 6kW of load dump could be OK. But if that 12kW as going 6kW to loads and 6kW to battery, there isn't headroom to swallow it.

Manual also says for wind power, can only be 1x. Could be PV at 2x results in voltage rising too high, and Sunny Boy shuts off. Maybe Windy Boy can't do that without a DC side dump load adjusting, and that isn't fast enough?
 
I currently use 50A breakers on mine. I have 4 Sunny Islands. I have seen surges of 31k watts (5 ton AC starting up and dryer running) and it didnt trip the breakers although I think constant use definitely would do it. Then again, if I'm using anywhere near 160 amps (80%/breaker * 4) for an extended period of time, something is definitely wrong and I'll put a stop to it lol.
 
Something fishy about 56Amps.
For one, good luck finding one for a residential panel.
The inverter is limited to 48A.
Let's assume it is continuous, which would result in 48x1.25 for an NEC required 60A breaker.
I looked at breaker trip curves for my load center (BR) and neither 50 nor 60 amp breakers would trip anywhere near the surge specs on the inverter.
So I'm stuck between the NEC continuous rating(60A) and an available breaker that satisfies the MFG, but may not meet NEC (50A).
?‍♂️
 
Another data point.
Midnite solar pre wired systems using sunny island 6048 use 60A magnetic hydraulic breakers rated for 100%duty.
I bought these systems, and will likely use the included breaker, with a 60amp breaker in the house panel board.

Pdf wiring diagram
 
70A is exactly 1.25x 56A
56A is the max SI can be programmed to allow through.
I initially used 70A Square D QO270 thermal/magnetic breaker. (had trouble with resistance difference splitting current unevenly for parallel paths through two SI.)
I've been running (used, tired) Schneider multi-9 63A thermal/magnetic, but a couple of times got a nuisance trip well below rating.

I looked for 63A or 70A magnetic/hydraulic. Some are listed, but many weeks lead time and priced around $170.
I just ordered Midnight/CBI 60A magnetic/hydraulic. MSRP $45 but paid $30.
Due to available stock, one pair of 2-pole breakers will be 120/240V, other pair 277V.

I will install those, an extra breaker I will put on my "tester". Lower rated breakers I just feed into multiple electric radiator heaters. For higher amperage, I wire a transformer primary and secondary in series (auto-transformer), connect that in series with space heater, use breaker to short out secondary winding. That makes it a current transformer, multiplying current of space heater to test breaker. While transformer winding is shorted, there is zero volts across it (and of course the closed breaker.) When breaker opens, voltage across it rises to whatever the step-down auto-transformer produces.
 
My version of the 6048 data sheet has AC input (genset, grid) programmable from 0-56 amps. AC output max is 48amps.
 
Data sheet I have says,
"Rated current / max. output current (peak) 48 A/180 A for approx. 60 ms"

Manual says 48A is nominal AC output (of inverter), not max.
Matches 5750W continuous at 25 degrees C; 120V x 48A = 5670W.
Would produce more if colder. Or 7000W 58A for 30 minutes at 25C.

22.2 Sunny Island 6048-US
Output Data SI 6048-US-10
Nominal AC voltage (adjustable) VAC, nom 120 V (105 V to 132 V)
Nominal frequency fnom 60 Hz (55 to 65 Hz)
Continuous AC power at 77°F (25°C) Pnom 5,750 W
AC power for 30 minutes at 77°F (25°C) P30min 7,000 W
AC power for 1 minute at 77°F (25°C) P1min 8,400 W
AC power for 3 seconds at 77°F (25°C) P3sec 11,000 W
Continuous AC power at 104°F (40°C) Pnom 4,700 W
AC power at 104°F (40°C) for 3 hours P3h 5,000 W
Continuous AC power at 122°F (50°C) Pnom 3,500 W
Continuous AC power at 140°F (60°C) Pnom 2,200 W
Nominal AC current IAC, nom 48.0 A
Maximum current (peak value) for 60 ms IAC, max 180 A

Back to the caution in manual:

"Damage to the Sunny Island inverter due to excessive current load at output AC1
The output AC1 of the Sunny Island inverter may handle a current rating up to 56A. A higher current
load at output AC1 may cause a cable fire, which can result in personal injury.
• A circuit breaker with a rated current of a maximum of 56A must be installed."

Inverter can produce 48A or so continuous. AC input could be providing 56A, and if SI allows both, maybe that is the source of concern.
We can connect wires of 6 awg or 4 awg, so 70A breaker protects them. To me the concern would be what connectors and PCB traces in SI can handle. SI knows AC input current and it knows inverter current so it really ought to protect its output, but maybe doesn't.

Now that I'm switching to 60A breakers, being only 4A over 56A "recommendation" doesn't seem like a big deal. Although, magnetic-hydraulic breakers may pass up to something like 125% of rating continuously without tripping. Has to be some margin if they say 100% continuous load is acceptable.
 
I agree the device should protect itself, wouldn't pass UL or TUV if it didn't.
There is some commentary in the manual about it being preferred that the breaker trip to the inverter protecting itself by shutting down, mostly due to ease of restart.
If the AC breaker trips, flip it and you are back on. If the inverter trips or the DC breaker trips, its a multi step process to restart.
 
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