Solar Generator Crowdfunding

[maverick80]

FWIW, I 100% agree with Will's decision to stop reviewing crowdfunded products and wish other solar generator influencers would do the same.

The more you dig into the background of these crowdfunding campaigns and companies, the more you realize backers are likely going to receive nothing, a piece of crap, a product that does not meet your expectations or, at best, a product you can buy after the campaign ends at a similar price. Despite all the (half-hearted?) warnings by Kickstarter and Indiegogo regarding the risks, many backers are just too captivated by fancy mock-ups, fake marketing videos, pictures of circuit boards, and promises of great deals. Influencer reviews of these pre-production products are often touted by the company as validation for the campaign (as noted by Will in his video) .... which is also misleading for the backers.

I really like these all-in-ones (I own an EB240 and an AC50) for solar generator novices like myself, but companies need to just do it the old fashioned way. Design a product based on market research (you don't NEED backer input for this!!!), test it, announce it, release it, send it out for testing/reviews, and then sell it via retail channels.

 

[Picasso]

I told the forum long ago Bluetti is just an importer and makes no products....

Hardware VC money now DEMANDs crowd funding to gauge levels of demand.

 

[BoloMKXXVIII]

Personally I would like to see Will continue to test crowdfunded portable power stations. I just want him to wait until they are actually being distributed and anonymously pick one up for testing. None of this pre-production nonsense.

 

[Steve_S]

Solar Generators are not the only VICTIMS of Crowdfunding shlock-sters. This is a disturbing trend that really took off in 2020 and I will make the assumption that CON Artists had more free time on their hands to cook up things.

Sadly, there are Real & Genuine folks trying to use these platforms to bring out new products & goods and the sheister's are ruining it, and as Will pointed out in his recent video, these are "Companies" doing it as well as the select "few" con artists. This is essentially screwing over the small guy, the inventor, creator & innovator.

Will uses SBMS as an example of a Good Growd-funding excercise. He put in so much of his own money & time along with heartbreaks and suffered a lot of bumps along the way to get something together and crowdfunding made the big difference in getting the goodies out there.

I Completely agree with will and further to that, I also agree with supporting only NON-Corporate inventors / creators in Crowd Funding platforms.

 

[JoeHam]

Hardware VC money now DEMANDs crowd funding to gauge levels of demand.

Just like spoiled children their demands will only get worse until they consistently go unmet.

The real problem isn’t with the demander, just the people who enable them. A successful scam continues until it is forced to stop.

 

[Sparky]

The goal zero gets its share of criticism, but it really did kick off the solar generator movement. It was overpriced in comparison to its constituent components, but really was pretty good as far as a beginner system, WHEN beginner systems weren't to be found.

 

[Ely]

My old Goal Zero Yeti 400 and Yeti 150, both with bulky lead-acid batteries, are since four years running. With the first batteries.

If the battery is dead, the replace is done in five minutes. The manual shows how to do it, a replace battery can get everywhere.

I‘m using the new Yeti 500x and 200x too, but the old Yeti‘s have some benefits.

 

[maverick80]

My issue is finding a product with a decent balance between value, functionality, and reliability.

The best value are these crowdfunded products. I believe LEOCH holds the current record for low cost at about $0.47/Wh .... but these projects have such a terrible track record with reliability that I won't risk it.

I think Goal Zero and Jackery have a lot to offer with reliability and functionality but both have their downsides, especially with respect to value. In their newest products, both use batteries rated to 500 cycles to 80% which seems low compared to other current products. Jackery's largest capacity (1000 Wh) is too small for many scenarios and works out to about $0.90/Wh on sale. Goal Zero has the 3000X and 6000X but the former is a pretty crappy value at about $1.06/Wh. The 6000X is a better value at about $0.82/Wh but man $5,000 is a lot. If the 3000X was $2,250 and used a longer-term battery chemistry, I'd def take a good look at that.

I know the Titan is great when it comes to functionality and reliability, but the base unit is $1.50/Wh. You can get that unit cost below $1.00 as you add on batteries but at that point you'll be spending over $7,000. In a bizarro world where I had significant resources, I'd just buy a bunch of them (and then wait for 4 months before I received them).

Bluetti's products are far from perfect but I personally think they're currently the best blend between value, functionality, and reliability, especially the EB240 and EB150 if you can get away with the small inverter size. The EB240 on sale (and it usually is) comes out to $0.65/Wh.

 

[Ely]

You can get many more than 500 cycles if you maintenance the battery. This only means: use it.

Don‘t discharge regulary below 20% and every 3 month discharge to 50% and recharge. Don‘t let the battery sit at plugged in to hold a full charge.

Jackery and GZ are expensive. But they work as expected, my old lead acid Yeti’s are about on 300 days at year in use. They are 4 years old, original battery, never replaced. This is what I call reliable.

 

[maverick80]

I think we're mostly saying the same thing? I agree GZ has a decent overall reputation for reliability and I like that they're actually a US company (vs. an importer with a PO Box).

I was/am looking for a few ~2000Wh units I can put around the house in case of power loss. I was initially looking at the 3000X (that 500 cycle/80% stat is from their own specs) but it's just a tough value proposition when you can get the EB240 for HALF the cost with only a small decrease in watt-hours. I bought one of the EB240s for now in the hope that GZ can get more competitive with their pricing one day ..... or I win the lottery. Not sure which one is more likely?

 

[Ely]

The short version if you want a well working and reliable ready to use solar generator is:

 

[Steve_S]

For ages, we have known,

• not to buy the first production year of any car and best not to till year 3 so it's debugged.
• never buy version 1.0 of any software out there.... 1.3 or better but never a *.0 !
• Alpha & Beta is for the hardcore, the testers and wannabe guinea pigs & they use it and know what they are getting into.

Crowdfunding is Pre-Alpha to Beta products yet many have to learn this part of the equation above. The expectations are far too high for anything at this level. Established companies & corporates playing in this for product development is more harmful than good. They are essentially stealing the limited funds incoming by bleeding it off from the genuine Inventors, Entrepreneurs & Creators who use Crowdfunding to bring ideas & products to fruition.

 

[raybythelake]

I totally agree with your points, Steve. Let's fund the little guys.

 

[Hedges]

Anything with electronic design, custom PCB, is going to need a fair amount of testing and probably redesign before it is good.
My boards usually had wiring errors we had to correct by lifting IC leads and performance enhancements accomplished by wiring in "dead bug" circuits. Second or third spin achieved production quality (only after analog performance of system tested in environmental chamber.) Circuit simulation using board netlist for connectivity usually not possible, so only separately drawn portions.

Software is notoriously bad, unless someone with suitable competence develops it. If the hardware supports what is needed, updates are possible. But if the programmers did a bad job in the beginning they will never be able to do a good job. It takes someone intimately familiar with hardware performance in addition to software development skills. Or else well specified, partitioned, verified software modules.

If the product is a higher level assembly of quality off-the-shelf sub-components like inverter, battery, BMS, then it could be good first time out. The quality of construction would be apparent in Will's tear-down and functionality would be seen as desired. Performance over temperature needs to be examined.

For instance, the DC Solar trailers. With the inverters inside weatherproof enclosures, designer ignored recommended clearance for airflow. Maybe with the single vent fan they added it can exhaust sufficient hot air with 1 kW dissipated inside and four fans running inside the two inverters, maybe not. Likely the system operating temperature range (or power output) is reduced compared to what the inverters support.

 

[Adjake]

I especially have issue with these so called “successful“ companies trying to fund their next project. If your successful than you should be able to manage your cash flow. I’ve noticed it a lot with these bag companies like boundary supply, wandrd, peak design etc. charging $200-$500 for a backpack. These guys are taking zero risk to put out a new product and most have now been around for years.