Solving problems, optimizing solutions

[jimcalf]

I’m just duplicating the flex model layout.

We love out 2108TB too! I still look at other RVs constantly and still haven't found anything I like better. When you say you're just duplicating the FLX layout, what do you mean specifically? Regarding the wiring to the roof, I just used the 10awg wiring that was there in the first place on our 2021. My panels are plugged into the OEM MC4 ports up on the roof. I put my PV breaker where the old, cheap 10A PWM solar charge controller was. I plugged the 10awg cables from the roof directly into the breaker, then ran 8awg wire from there to the area under the driver side bed where I have all the electronics. You can see the MPPT in the upper right-hand corner of the backer board. BTW, do you plan to use the same electronics as the FLX? That's pretty pricey stuff. Especially that Lithionics battery.

 

[Gamekeeper]

Wild!
That looks exactly like what I’m doing.

Even including the flip up lid on my wife’s bunk.

I’ve gone with Renogy for all of the stuff, I’m only living in it a few months a year.

When I went to 60 pounds of propane on the tongue, I’ve never run out of propane in less than a month.

That is in keeping with the original concept of this thread which is optimizing. I don’t need 200 pounds of propane, I need just more than what I need for my intended use.

They have a 12v frig in theFlex model, and some kind of super efficient air conditioner.

In my case, I added a soft start kit to the air conditioner, and run it off of a 2000 W generator if I need to in the summer. And that’s only for a little while in the evening.

I couldn’t see removing a brand new air conditioner, to move up to the more efficient one.

And then as far as the refrigerator goes, that’s new too.
Probably the only actual shortfall, is that Winnebago doesn’t put any kind of a chase to get wire down from the roof to the other places that you might want to route it. Whereas on my Utv there is a chase from one end of the buggy to the other specifically for routing wires.

So, I am mostly running my frig on propane with a tiny bit of electricity from the batteries.

We will be swapping out the stove top for a combination induction propane stove top because for a couple of hundred dollars it meets our needs far better than the three burner propane

And since I will have the bottom skin off this summer, I will be able To route the wiring underneath.

 

[jimcalf]

How are you handling the condensation when it's cold and you're running the furnace a lot? I've found the 2108TB to be a bit lightweight when it comes to insulation. Walls are only about 1.25" thick, vs. the 2" thick walls of other rigs. And of course, single pane windows get tons of condensation. I can really see where the aluminum structure members are in the walls from the water beading up extra heavy there. The only thing I can think of is to run a dehumidifier, but they are pretty power hungry if boondocking. We kind of gave up on cold weather camping due to the condensation issue. I finally just put it up in December and winterized it.
I have 860W of solar, so that does its best to top up the batteries, but I also have to use a generator if I take the batteries down too far running the air conditioner. I have an EasyStart installed, so the A/C runs on the batteries fine, and generator if needed. I have 11kwh of battery, which is 3X what the FLX has, so if it's full I can run it for quite a while. All night for sure. I have the regular Dometic Brisk II, 13.5kbtu. The FLX has the Truma Advanta, which is about 25% more efficient that ours. It's $2,000 though, so to only save 25% I think that's too steep. If I really wanted to get more efficient A/C I'd install a mini-split. I also have the 12V fridge, and it just sips power. It would drain my 12V FLA battery in about 36hrs, but I can run it on my new system indefinitely. I can't wait to get some good camping in this summer.

 

[Gamekeeper]

We leave the bath fan running and the vent cracked.
My wife gives the windows a once over with a microfiber cloth and that’s about it.

We use the area under the bunks as cold storage, but I’m thinking about lining them with half inch insulation but I probably won’t.

We don’t live in it full-time. We only spend a couple of weeks or so in it anyway and the tanksAre a little late for long-term off grid camping.

But I knew that when I bought it. My Jaunts are typically 10 days to two weeks in duration, if longer, I’m probably at a campground.
Is there as I can tell, with a 1500w electric heater, and the tank heaters on, we could live in it at 10°F indefinitely at a campground.
Oh the other thing is on the bunks we have comforters that kind of put some bedding material between you and the outside walls whether at the head of the bed or the side.

Neither of us are particularly tall or wide, so it works for us.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

a bit lightweight when it comes to insulation. Walls are only about 1.25" thick, vs. the 2" thick walls of other rigs.

Is that foam? Or fiberglass blanket?

And of course, single pane windows get tons of condensation

In a number of aspects reflectix is marketing hype, but it is useful if one is a) mindful of how heat/cold works and b) willing to accept you won’t get miraculous biblical performance out of it.

For the purposes of putting money in the bank I “downsized” to a ~25’ camper for three summers. This past summer- my 4th- I planned to get an apartment for the winter as usual but when when I was about to drop $3500 for an apartment I balked when I considered how long it takes to accumulate money. I decided to try using it all winter and it was successful. No moisture issues. And I’m in Vermont.

Three of the things I did to winterize are easily done and you could accomplish without major “renovations” to your camper.
1) I bought plexiglass and made “storm panels” for the window interiors. With self-adhesive foam weatherstrip around the perimeters and #6 screws with finishing washers through predrilled holes this stopped air movement in wind and was a noticeable heating improvement (did it November)
2) I made reflectix covers over the storm panels and attached with push-pins. I was skeptical but it had made a dramatic difference in the bathroom and over the two roof vent openings. I got a big roll and covered the windows and that was also a noticeable improvement.
3) I lined the closet, cubbies and the cabinets with 1/2” foil faced foam. Again I was surprised at the improvement though it was less felt than I noticed the furnace duty cycle was less.
Less easily done and requires some commitment and dollars: the 1978 Dutch Craft has somewhat high ceilings which I padded down 1-1/2” with 2x2s from HD glued and screwed and insulated with foam. 3/16 plywood, and glued inexpensive carpet to the ceiling. I also pulled the paneling in front and fit 2” of foam with every piece perimeter sealed with spray foam. I had previously removed the propane fridge and installed a 120V fridge- when I did that I removed ‘venting’ and insulated the wall and ceiling opening well (From the factory it has 4” of fiberglass in the floors with aluminum underbelly which I left because retrofit of floors is major construction)
My water didn’t freeze even with the -28*F night we had. I did pour some salt in the drains after showering or using the kitchen sink. The shower drain had ‘thick’ water a couple times but the 100* shower water always cleared it out. No ice.
Condensation wasn’t an issue. I opened the roof vent above when I showered every morning which depending on the wind was…invigorating. That’s how I did it.

. I can really see where the aluminum structure members are in the walls from the water beading up extra heavy there.

This takes commitment. 1-1/2” of foam with 1x2 “furring” offset from factory ‘studs’ and new plywood paneling, window trim, extended crank handles, electrical wiring awareness, and adjustment of cabinets. Adjustment of cabinets has to be carefully thought out because they are usually a structural component of any camper.

 

[Gamekeeper]

Is that foam? Or fiberglass blanket?

In a number of aspects reflectix is marketing hype, but it is useful if one is a) mindful of how heat/cold works and b) willing to accept you won’t get miraculous biblical performance out of it.

For the purposes of putting money in the bank I “downsized” to a ~25’ camper for three summers. This past summer- my 4th- I planned to get an apartment for the winter as usual but when when I was about to drop $3500 for an apartment I balked when I considered how long it takes to accumulate money. I decided to try using it all winter and it was successful. No moisture issues. And I’m in Vermont.

Three of the things I did to winterize are easily done and you could accomplish without major “renovations” to your camper.
1) I bought plexiglass and made “storm panels” for the window interiors. With self-adhesive foam weatherstrip around the perimeters and #6 screws with finishing washers through predrilled holes this stopped air movement in wind and was a noticeable heating improvement (did it November)
2) I made reflectix covers over the storm panels and attached with push-pins. I was skeptical but it had made a dramatic difference in the bathroom and over the two roof vent openings. I got a big roll and covered the windows and that was also a noticeable improvement.
3) I lined the closet, cubbies and the cabinets with 1/2” foil faced foam. Again I was surprised at the improvement though it was less felt than I noticed the furnace duty cycle was less.
Less easily done and requires some commitment and dollars: the 1978 Dutch Craft has somewhat high ceilings which I padded down 1-1/2” with 2x2s from HD glued and screwed and insulated with foam. 3/16 plywood, and glued inexpensive carpet to the ceiling. I also pulled the paneling in front and fit 2” of foam with every piece perimeter sealed with spray foam. I had previously removed the propane fridge and installed a 120V fridge- when I did that I removed ‘venting’ and insulated the wall and ceiling opening well (From the factory it has 4” of fiberglass in the floors with aluminum underbelly which I left because retrofit of floors is major construction)
My water didn’t freeze even with the -28*F night we had. I did pour some salt in the drains after showering or using the kitchen sink. The shower drain had ‘thick’ water a couple times but the 100* shower water always cleared it out. No ice.
Condensation wasn’t an issue. I opened the roof vent above when I showered every morning which depending on the wind was…invigorating. That’s how I did it.

This takes commitment. 1-1/2” of foam with 1x2 “furring” offset from factory ‘studs’ and new plywood paneling, window trim, extended crank handles, electrical wiring awareness, and adjustment of cabinets. Adjustment of cabinets has to be carefully thought out because they are usually a structural component of any camper.

I think depending on circumstances, there’s a point of diminishing returns.

In this case, because of the Azdel, aluminum frame, and foam insulation, I knew what I was getting into when I bought it.
This isn’t a particularly price sensitive project. Though I do think that the flex model is over priced by at least $20,000.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

think depending on circumstances, there’s a point of diminishing returns.

Yes, true. I will say however that R5 versus R15 or even R10 are very noticeable differences in both comfort and checkbook balance with heating them.
~~~~~~~~~
Other than some limited-run ‘campers’ made for Alaska use that I saw in a video, I’ve never seen a camper that impressed me for winter use.
The insulated floor ~1974-1979? Dutch Craft campers are some of the few capable of true winter use (with mods) or that are upfit-insulatable without totally gutting and starting over. I’ve repaired or upgraded enough campers over the years; even the insulated fiberglass 4-season models are generally R8 at best. I also had a 1958? Forester that was impressive with its sealed combustion vented propane convection furnace - though insulation was marginal. The impressive varnished maple interior makes me miss it. The original 120V fridge/icebox still ran great!

It might cost a bit, but if a manufacturer offered a well-built winter camper I bet they’d have a market. Other than the few foam/skinned models, the RV world is stuck in glamor and appearances but underneath the skin they’re still stapling together things like a 1980s mobile home.

That’s one of the things that makes these diy cargo trailer to camper projects so appealing: a greatly insulated shell and meaningful ergonomics that can be tailored to use and heated with two candles.

 

[Gamekeeper]

Yes, true. I will say however that R5 versus R15 or even R10 are very noticeable differences in both comfort and checkbook balance with heating them.
~~~~~~~~~
Other than some limited-run ‘campers’ made for Alaska use that I saw in a video, I’ve never seen a camper that impressed me for winter use.
The insulated floor ~1974-1979? Dutch Craft campers are some of the few capable of true winter use (with mods) or that are upfit-insulatable without totally gutting and starting over. I’ve repaired or upgraded enough campers over the years; even the insulated fiberglass 4-season models are generally R8 at best. I also had a 1958? Forester that was impressive with its sealed combustion vented propane convection furnace - though insulation was marginal. The impressive varnished maple interior makes me miss it. The original 120V fridge/icebox still ran great!

It might cost a bit, but if a manufacturer offered a well-built winter camper I bet they’d have a market. Other than the few foam/skinned models, the RV world is stuck in glamor and appearances but underneath the skin they’re still stapling together things like a 1980s mobile home.

That’s one of the things that makes these diy cargo trailer to camper projects so appealing: a greatly insulated shell and meaningful ergonomics that can be tailored to use and heated with two candles.

People have different goals for their RV projects. For me, it’s just one month or less of Glamping.

For others, I understand it’s their home. But my wife and I can’t live in essentially a cardboard box with the windows all blacked out like people do. Not gonna happen.

My energy bill for six weeks in Arizona this winter was only a couple hundred dollars. That represents no burden for the level of comfort we enjoy.

Our goals are just not the same as others.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

can’t live in essentially a cardboard box with the windows all blacked out like people do

Understood. If I didn’t leave for work everyday essentially at daylight and returning after dark, or the reflectix covers were not removable for the few days I’d be here I couldn’t do it either!

 

[Gamekeeper]

Understood. If I didn’t leave for work everyday essentially at daylight and returning after dark, or the reflectix covers were not removable for the few days I’d be here I couldn’t do it either!

It’s awkward conversing about “solar by choice” when the conversants live in different worlds.
Our exploratory visit to SE AZ was quite eye opening.
I just fiddle with this stuff for fun.

 

[jimcalf]

I have the luxury of being retired, so if I were to full time, I'd follow 70 degrees. I hate living in NE Ohio in the winter, and I live in a very well insulated townhouse. I'm way too wimpy to live in subzero temperatures for very long in a trailer. If I did want to do some serious cold weather camping, I'd probably look into a Northwood Mfg. Arctic Fox, Oliver trailer or other 4-season focused rig. They really are built for Alaska, Canada, etc. I love my Micro Minnie, but also accept that it was designed to be light. Only 4,000lbs dry. A similar sized Arctic Fox trailer is over 6,000lbs. It just has a lot more of everything when it comes to material thickness, wall insulation, roof, dual-pane windows, etc. The Micro Minnie is really good from about 40F and higher for me. I love hot weather, so... that is really more of my focus.

 

[Gamekeeper]

I have the luxury of being retired, so if I were to full time, I'd follow 70 degrees. I hate living in NE Ohio in the winter, and I live in a very well insulated townhouse. I'm way too wimpy to live in subzero temperatures for very long in a trailer. If I did want to do some serious cold weather camping, I'd probably look into a Northwood Mfg. Arctic Fox, Oliver trailer or other 4-season focused rig. They really are built for Alaska, Canada, etc. I love my Micro Minnie, but also accept that it was designed to be light. Only 4,000lbs dry. A similar sized Arctic Fox trailer is over 6,000lbs. It just has a lot more of everything when it comes to material thickness, wall insulation, roof, dual-pane windows, etc. The Micro Minnie is really good from about 40F and higher for me. I love hot weather, so... that is really more of my focus.

My hobbies require using the trailer at lower temps.
It wasn’t worth the investment to chase down a Canadian design trailer.
I already had a newer 1/2 ton truck for towing And the heavy trailers needed a different tow vehicle.

Everyone optimizes their camper choice at purchase.
I’m just continuing to optimize it after purchase.

An example would be skirting.
Probably not worth it for some people.
But for a small investment, it might really improve comfort at floor level In a late season use, semi off grid trailer.

Still hanging fire on the 3000w pure sign wave inverter charger.
Winnie uses Xantrex, Renogy is on sale, and this site has satisfied users of every brand there is.
Makes the final choice hard.

I think in the Winnie, low noise might be the final determinant.

 

[HRTKD]

I think in the Winnie, low noise might be the final determinant.

Space available is a consideration also. My Victron 12/3000 isn't small. As long as the draw isn't too much my inverter is very quiet. A 1500 watt pull will cause the fans to kick on and that can be heard, but it's not shrill.

 

[jimcalf]

I think in the Winnie, low noise might be the final determinant.

The noise was also a factor for me, since it sits right under me when I'm sleeping. I have a Victron Multiplus, and 99% of the time, I don't know its there. Yes the fan runs when the A/C is on, but no way I can hear the inverter over the AC noise. The fans dial down quick when the demand drops, so when the A/C cycles to compressor off, the fans slow very quickly. The loudest is when I'm charging on 30A shore power and have the input current set to 30A, and charge current set to max 70A (52A is the factory default). Then the fan and heat really kick up. Just watching TV or something relatively low power though, the fans don't come on at all. I had a 1,000W Xantrex before that ran the fans the second you turned it on. That was a bit annoying.

the heavy trailers needed a different tow vehicle.

Agree! I'd sell my 1/2 ton and get a minimum 3/4 ton truck if I were ever to buy an Arctic fox or anything else with a 9,000lb GVWR. The F150 and Micro Minnie are paired well. Great towing experience.

skirting.

I actually joined the cold weather RV Facebook group and learned a lot. I hate cold weather, but I was still curious about how to survive in a trailer in the cold. There are some rugged folks in that group! Skirting seems like a no brainer, but also, most of them were on some type of shore power which allowed things like running a dehumidifier 24/7. I love seeing those 100lb propane tanks littering the tongue area. and lots of Reflectix.

 

[HRTKD]

I skirted my trailer. It made a difference. I don't have any objective measurements, but my fresh water tank didn't freeze when the overnight temps got down to -8°F. The tank didn't come insulated from the factory and I added a couple layers of rigid foam insulation around it. That was quite a job to do. Skirting wasn't cheap, but I went with a DIY kit from EZ Snap Direct.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

also, most of them were on some type of shore power which allowed things like running a dehumidifier 24/7

I’ve winter-readied three campers. Northern Vermont.
The latest was for last winter and it was best of all with factory insulation in the floor. I didn’t skirt. It was fine, comfortable. Cooler down low but not cold.

I’ve yet to need or run a dehumidifier.

You can control humidity by ventilation while showering and running stove hood fan when cooking. Condensation happens on cold surfaces but proper ventilation reduces humidity and adequate insulation eliminates cold surfaces. .