diy solar

diy solar

The US government opens 22 million acres of federal lands to solar

Anyone done a study on global heating by solar panels?
It’s touted as “green” but I fly over them and the amount of convection is insane.
I can notice the air comes into the plane significantly warmer.
 
I can see the thermal lift problem but how would it increase global heating?
It's just not making it to the ground as quickly.
 
Here’s some pictures of an existing large scale solar system built in the desert. This is what they are doing and what they want to do to other locations. Such a sterile barren place compared to what was there. This is not minimizing man’s impacts upon nature.

Pictures of the Tucson, AZ facility are off of the PV Magazine website. There’s a quote from this article that you should note….”Rooftop solar leads to less land use, less costly transmission infrastructure buildout, and less electricity line losses when compared to centralized utility-scale power.” So let’s cover our buildings with solar. It’s the smart solution!

The link below is to an article in PV Magazine regarding a possibility tax on solar power exports but this is where those Tucson pics came from.

 

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Here’s some pictures of an existing large scale solar system built in the desert. This is what they are doing and what they want to do to other locations. Such a sterile barren place compared to what was there. This is not minimizing man’s impacts upon nature.

Pictures of the Tucson, AZ facility are off of the PV Magazine website. There’s a quote from this article that you should note….”Rooftop solar leads to less land use, less costly transmission infrastructure buildout, and less electricity line losses when compared to centralized utility-scale power.” So let’s cover our buildings with solar. It’s the smart solution!

The link below is to an article in PV Magazine regarding a possibility tax on solar power exports but this is where those Tucson pics came from.

Have you been to west Texas? Besides oil wells there is not much there. Ive seen gravel pits with more character. Why not cover it with solar panels?

Im pro nuclear. So its me and a couple other guys. 😄
 
A few additional pictures of actual solar farms currently operating in western states. quod erat demonstrandum

Been in and around Texas. Yes. Nice once you’re out of the cities. Have any of you driven/visited the deserts of California, Oregon, Arizona, New Mexico, Washington, southern Colorado, Wyoming, Dakotas, Nevada, and Utah? Now there are some parts that you won’t see another car on these backroads for hours. Few if anyone lives out there other than ranchers at best. I’ve been in all of these states and I’m amazed at people who keep claiming the USA is over populated. The only states I have yet to see are the ones in the New England area. So yes there are those who would love to cover these remote public lands with solar panels. They see it as a waste land. In fact, there’s a lot of people who live east of the Mississippi would agree with you and wouldn’t care if all the fly over states were covered over. How is this good stewardship of our environment?

Humans need to minimize our impact/footprint on nature/environment. That means we need to make wise use of these public lands/resources. It doesn’t mean trash, pollute, exploit these areas and leave them waste lands. Use, extract, reclaim, restore all need to go hand in hand. Chief Seattle, a Native american of the Duwamish tribe once said “Take only memories, leave only footprints”. Wise words that ring true today. So let’s find a wise solution to our energy needs that minimizes any harm to the environment. Isn’t this why members of this forum are solar enthusiasts?

Hey Mr Eggo, open a new thread topic on nuclear power since at least for now these 22mil acres does not include nuclear power stations. I prefer fusion over fission but there are some interesting new reactor design. Older fission designs weren’t the most efficient at using their fuel. Handling the waste issues would be a good topic to include in your new thread.
 

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Centralization is the opposite of what being a good steward is about. These PUBLIC lands shouldn't be destroyed by this disgusting scheme. As the functional infrastructure is decommissioned there will be a larger need for more capacity. Do we all have to lose OUR public lands just to attempt to satiate the appetite of greedy so called environmentalists? Anthropogenic climate change as a result of CO2 should have been mocked and disproved to death years ago, but it wasn't, now we get to be banned from our own lands in favor of this. What a travesty. If we keep turning a blind eye to REALITY we will pay for it in so many ways.
 
A few additional pictures of actual solar farms currently operating in western states.
I like the one with the solar chimney. I wonder which is more efficient: the panels or the chimney? But, wow, some of those images show far more massive sprawl in covering the terrain than I would have thought. I didn't realize they had such ginormous installations already.
 
Re-use of a roof to support solar is more material & land-use efficient, but those solar panels will never be set at ideal angles due to the roof slopes and orientations. "costing" PV efficiency. Installing a million panels in one big central array will be far less costly than installing a million panels 20 per house x 50,000 houses.
The big issue seems to be the permits and fire hazard concerns.
I personally would like to see better utilization of existing/new structures to serve double duty as PV supports with far less new land use, and if there are concerns about RSD or arc-fault-detection then build the required safety devices into the PV panels themselves.
 
but those solar panels will never be set at ideal angles due to the roof slopes and orientations
That depends partly on the mounting. If panels must be mounted flush with the roof slope, then certainly they will not always be in the ideal position. But what is stopping the development of mounting brackets that accommodate other angles? Even wind-loading concerns should be addressable in some manner, such as the addition of a cowling as a shield. Obviously, this would add to the expense of the installation, but I guess much depends on the cost/benefit ratio. Using up lands currently dedicated to wildlife when the concrete jungles have not first been saturated seems unwise. Even if twice as many panels are required for rooftop solar as compared to placement on wilderness land for the same electrical output, there are other factors to consider, such as the fact that much less infrastructure and line loss will occur when the electricity is manufactured at the point of use versus at some remote location. The cost/benefit ratio suddenly complicates when one considers this.

Unused roof space is wasted if solar panels are put elsewhere. They could help keep the house cooler and the roof more sheltered, too.
 
It's not one or the other: there will continue to be a mix of rooftop and ground-mounted solar decided by the owner: rooftop can be installed by the homeowner, whereas large ground-mounted arrays tend to be run by companies.
The large arrays being more efficient since they'll benefit from economies of scale for both construction and operation.
 
Shade.
ie shade on the next row of PV behind the first tilted row.
In your latitude, the ration can be 5:1 offset to prevent shading.
That depends on which angle one is trying to accommodate. If it's a matter of converting the roof's pitch to better reflect one's latitude, shading might be uninvolved. But if one is trying to mitigate against conditions where the roof slope is not south-facing, then you do have a point.

Is it really 5:1 offset for Thailand? My latitude here is about 16, so the inclination only needs to be about 16 degrees, if I'm not misunderstanding. That doesn't sound like much shading for the next panel--I would expect the gap between panels to be nominal. Perhaps you were using the "your" in the generic sense of a given individual, and certainly at 49 degrees north one might have more of an issue with shading.

But this begs the question: if the cost of solar panels were no issue, would more electricity be produced by covering every flat roof surface, or by angling the panels into the sun for their MPP? I suspect the answer to this has something to do with the manner in which the panels are typically installed.
 
Hey Mr Eggo, open a new thread topic on nuclear power since at least for now these 22mil acres does not include nuclear power stations. I prefer fusion over fission but there are some interesting new reactor design. Older fission designs weren’t the most efficient at using their fuel. Handling the waste issues would be a good topic to include in your new thread.

Nah. Just trying to establish your level of cookiness. Anybody that gives an actual shit about the environment must support fission as a part of the energy equation. Nuclear safety and waste are red herrings.

We've been 5-20 years from having fusion for about 70 years now. Don't hold your breath. ITER is an EU-run boondoggle that is going to be perpetually delayed and over budget. Participants are just working to extract as much funding as they can.

I live in AZ and own 39 acres of high desert. The idea that large numbers people can live in these areas is laughable if for no other reason than... water.

I've driven through some of the regions you reference. Even in some of your pictures where adjacent land is shown, it just further supports the sensibility of using this land for PV.

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Not every bush needs to be preserved.
 
Sometimes when people talk about land use, it seems they forget the area of land occupied by: highways, parking lots, shopping malls, airports, whole Cities...as if somehow only the land used for solar is 'wasteful'.
I recall a comparison in a mining forum, that the land area of every mine site in Canada, added together occupies less land than the road right-of-way for Hwy 401 from Windsor to Ottawa in Ontario. ie one highway running a few hundred miles.


And to keep that 22-million acres in perspective, google tells me the lower 48 are approximately 1.9 Billion Acres.
 
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Sometimes when people talk about land use, it seems they forget the area of land occupied by: highways, parking lots, shopping malls, airports, whole Cities...as if somehow only the land used for solar is 'wasteful'.
I recall a comparison in a mining forum, that the land area of every mine site in Canada, added together occupies less land than the road right-of-way for Hwy 401 from Windsor to Ottawa in Ontario. ie one highway running a few hundred miles.


And to keep that 22-million acres in perspective, google tells me the lower 48 are approximately 1.9 Billion Acres.
True, but there is a lot of land that is not practical to live on as Eggo pointed out. Water is a huge issue out west. Austin, Tx housing is very expensive because you need access to water. There is a lot of land without water access.
I think parking lots have a lot of PV potential. Plus in the south the shade would be welcomed.
And they are in population centers.
 
Anyone done a study on global heating by solar panels?
It’s touted as “green” but I fly over them and the amount of convection is insane.
I can notice the air comes into the plane significantly warmer.
Well, let's do the math.

Solar PV is now about 23% efficient and has an albedo of .3. That means that 23% of the energy falling on it is converted to electricity and 30% is reflected back out. That means that of the energy hitting the panel, 47% is wasted as heat. That gives an overall thermal efficiency of 32%. The average efficiency of a coal fired power plant is 33%. So if you replaced coal power plants with PV, the heat wasted per unit of energy generated would be a wash.

Of course that doesn't account for CO2 emissions, which tend to trap heat and do a lot of warming. PV wins there.

It also assumes that the land had an albedo of 100% before you put the solar panels there - but that's never true. So let's look at it from a total heat generated in a given area approach. Like I mentioned, solar panels have an albedo of about .3 and an EFFECTIVE albedo of .53. This is because the absorbed energy isn't all turned into heat; some is turned into electricity, and Maxwell says there's no free lunch - so that energy going away from the panels via the wires can't warm up the panel any more. Some other common albedos:

Fresh asphalt 0.04
Open ocean 0.06
Worn asphalt 0.12
Conifer forest 0.12
Tar roof 0.12
Deciduous forest 0.17
Bare soil 0.17
Tile roof 0.20
Green grass 0.25
Desert sand 0.40
New concrete 0.55
Ocean ice 0.50 to 0.70
Fresh snow 0.80
Aluminum 0.85

This means that if you replace forest, plain dirt, grass or desert with panels, the overall heat absorbed by the area goes down. And of course if you cover roads or roofs with panels the heat absorbed goes WAY down.

"But wait" you say. "I see more rising air over solar farms than over forests!" That's definitely true. Forests generate far more heat - but they are also transpiring water. And it requires a lot of heat to evaporate water, which is why forests are often cooler. The total heat absorbed is higher, but it's locally cooler.

And of course Maxwell still gets his say, and that heat is returned to the system when that water condenses in the form of clouds, rain, snow or dew.
 
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