What's so bad about selling to utility wholesale?

[wattmatters]

Hey, if we could do that as a charitable contribution to someone in need, so they received the power we delivered at no cost, we might even do that.
But not as a contribution to PG&E.

This is the bit I don't understand - that people believe power companies are making some kind of profit off our excess solar PV.

In general, feed-in tariffs here are fairly reflective of the average spot wholesale value of the energy at the time it is being supplied to the grid. And (aside from any carbon abatement value) that's all it's worth, indeed given it is a largely non-controllable supply it really should be valued less than grid generators' wholesale price as they have to comply with supply contract standards and market operator directions for ramping up/down supply. Meanwhile I can add or remove supply at will and there's nothing the market operator can do about it.

That the feed-in tariff is fraction of the retail import tariff at that time is simply due to the fact retail tariffs incur various other charges aside from the wholesale cost of energy but it's not like the power companies are making money from it.

If anything FITs are a bit on the generous side. Places with 1:1 net metering, well that's just unsustainable. We ditched that nonsense the best part of a decade ago.

Because they want to charge you to give them your power?

I said nothing about being charged to export. If you are being charged to export then I agree and can understand not wanting to export.

This happens here for those who choose to be on wholesale cost pass through arrangements - they need to have good control over their home's energy system so as to avoid exporting at times when spot wholesale prices are negative.

And this is the issue with "selling to the utility wholesale" - it can be a good thing but you need a way to automatically micromanage when you import/export and at what power level since an individual has zero control over the price of the commodity and that prices is typically highly variable.

It means the home solar PV system is no longer a consumer application but more of a prosumer application. It just seems like an awful lot of effort and risk for not a lot of return.

 

[timselectric]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere!
So it's not due to any specific actions or policies and more of a resentment of authority in general?
If that's the case then it seems that NOTHING they do would ever make some people happy.

Fair treatment is all that is needed.
Mandated bs, is no longer acceptable.
The government is their puppet.

 

[wattmatters]

As far as I know. The power companies don't allow the export credits to be applied to non metered fees.

I guess that varies by region. Here a credit for exporting is a separate line item and hence applies to the total bill. Indeed each month my retailer issues an invoice covering all fees and charges and a credit note covering my exports to the grid, and the balance of the two is what I pay (unless the balance is a credit, in which case it carries forward to the next month).

 

[timselectric]

I guess that varies by region. Here a credit for exporting is a separate line item and hence applies to the total bill. Indeed each month my retailer issues an invoice covering all fees and charges and a credit note covering my exports to the grid, and the balance of the two is what I pay (unless the balance is a credit, in which case it carries forward to the next month).

That's not the case, here.
Export credits only apply to metered charges.

 

[wattmatters]

Export credits only apply to metered charges.

What happens if that ends up as a credit?

 

[Hedges]

Pacific Gas & Electric being one of 3 big power companies in California. Why are they so unpopular?

Ok, now we're getting somewhere!
So it's not due to any specific actions or policies and more of a resentment of authority in general?
If that's the case then it seems that NOTHING they do would ever make some people happy.

It is specific actions. Same with AT&T. And I own stock in both, used to choose not to switch to a different provider.

Because they proposed charging a "photon tax" of $12/month per kW of PV panel on my roof.
Together with their proposed credit for backfeed, I'd actually have to pay them net dollars for power I exported to the grid. In addition to net dollars for power I made and used locally.

As far as I know. The power companies don't allow the export credits to be applied to non metered fees.

I think my credits, calculated at 100% of retail for whatever time of day, may only count as dollars toward retail power I use.

If I've exported net kWh as of the end of the year, I think that is credited around $0.025/kWh carried forward as a credit on my bill, applied to the $10/month connect fee.

I'm actually not sure whether the net metering credits would be applied to monthly minimum charge because last year I had dollar credits exceeding those.

 

[Hedges]

This is the bit I don't understand - that people believe power companies are making some kind of profit off our excess solar PV.

In general, feed-in tariffs here are fairly reflective of the average spot wholesale value of the energy at the time it is being supplied to the grid. And (aside from any carbon abatement value) that's all it's worth, indeed given it is a largely non-controllable supply it really should be valued less than grid generators' wholesale price as they have to comply with supply contract standards and market operator directions for ramping up/down supply. Meanwhile I can add or remove supply at will and there's nothing the market operator can do about it.

If the government orders me to install rooftop PV (in the event I buy/build a new house), which costs 3x utility scale PV plant, they can d*mn well order PG&E to credit me 3x wholesale for the power. Considering it flows out of my house and into the neighbor's, without even going through a transformer much less a transmission line, it is not only more efficiently delivered than what PG&E buys from a power plant, it also lets them get away with not upgrading infrastructure as much.

I said nothing about being charged to export. If you are being charged to export then I agree and can understand not wanting to export.

Both PG&E and CPUC thought that was a good idea.
Governor Newsom does have to worry about the voters.

 

[timselectric]

What happens if that ends up as a credit?

You still have to pay the un metered charges.

 

[wattmatters]

it also lets them get away with not upgrading infrastructure as much.

Your situation appears pretty sub-optimal.

But on this point about infrastructure - here the infrastructure for supporting an increase distributed solar PV is a bottleneck.

My local region has seen tighter export limits imposed recently simply because the distribution infrastructure isn't able to manage the high levels of daytime PV. We are now experiencing scenarios in some places where the grid demand for entire distribution zone is less than the rooftop PV supply coming from homes. That's no simple pass through of power to a neighbour. Mine certainly doesn't go to a neighbour since they all have solar PV. It has to go much further upstream to be consumed.

Distribution companies are being required to upgrade infrastructure to enable the network to handle more distributed PV - it's a requirement for them to be permitted to apply any form of export charge. We are seeing the benefits of this in some areas, e.g. in parts of regional Victoria there have been very low export power caps, often zero, applies to homes installing solar PV. But after infrastructure improvements many of those areas have had those restrictions lifted.

Given our FITs are not high to begin with (in VIC it's ~US3.3 c/kWh) then it's not a big difference for people's billing, but a typical basic 6.6 kW PV system in VIC will export about 5.5 MWh/year, for a credit of ~A$180. It's not a lot but it's better than a poke in the stick with a sharp brown eye.

Our distribution companies are tightly regulated and have mandated revenue caps which are published in advance. If they want to increase a fee for service, they are required to reduce their fees elsewhere.

 

[wattmatters]

You still have to pay the un metered charges.

But if you have a $ credit, then what's the difference, apart from perhaps when the credit is paid?

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Governor Newsom does have to worry about the voters.

He’s Pelosi nephew.
He doesn’t have to worry about anything.

He’s the next Golden boy.
They are grooming him for Presidential run.

 

[SkyBlue]

Pacific Gas & Electric being one of 3 big power companies in California. Why are they so unpopular?

Many people in California don't like PG&E because PG&E has killed more than 100 people in recent years (remember Paradise and San Bruno?), because PG&E has burned millions of acres of public and private land in recent years, because PG&E has destroyed thousands of homes, businesses, and other structures in recent years, and because the smoke from the fires that PG&E starts forces millions of people to stay inside for days at a time many summers or risk serious injury to their health. Many of these disasters resulted directly from PG&E's failure to maintain its equipment properly. These aren't my opinions, these are admissions by PG&E and findings of courts of law. PG&E has done all this and more while receiving little punishment for its crimes other than being fined by the state and sued by its victims, which it often pays for by raising its rates and/or reorganizing under bankruptcy.

Also, some of us on this forum don't like PG&E because we think that company is doing everything in its power to kill rooftop solar in its service territory.

 

[JRH]

Many people in California don't like PG&E because PG&E has killed more than 100 people in recent years (remember Paradise and San Bruno?), because PG&E has burned millions of acres of public and private land in recent years, because PG&E has destroyed thousands of homes, businesses, and other structures in recent years, and because the smoke from the fires that PG&E starts forces millions of people to stay inside for days at a time many summers or risk serious injury to their health. Many of these disasters resulted directly from PG&E's failure to maintain its equipment properly. These aren't my opinions, these are admissions by PG&E and findings of courts of law. PG&E has done all this and more while receiving little punishment for its crimes other than being fined by the state and sued by its victims, which it often pays for by raising its rates and/or reorganizing under bankruptcy.

Also, some of us on this forum don't like PG&E because we think that company is doing everything in its power to kill rooftop solar in its service territory.

Anyone who thinks “ Big Electric ” or the Govt will ever do anything to help the average “normal joe” become energy independant , ,so as not to need them , is…is…is….
well you know…I’m not Gona say it , but you know ……or at least you should know …
if your over 40……!

 

[1201]

Anyone who thinks “ Big Electric ” or the Govt will ever do anything to help the average “normal joe” become energy independant , ,so as not to need them , is…is…is….
well you know…I’m not Gona say it , but you know ……or at least you should know …
if your over 40……!

Uh, the "government" right now pays 30% of any solar or battery you install so maybe they are doing something to help normal Joe be energy independent

 

[JRH]

Uh, the "government" right now pays 30% of any solar or battery you install so maybe they are doing something to help normal Joe be energy independent

“uhhh… yea right…” that’s how a magician does his tricks … making you watch the right hand while the left hand creates the magic…it’s called slight of hand…it’s old as the hills.

 

[1201]

“uhhh… yea right…” that’s how a magician does his tricks … making you watch the right hand while the left hand creates the magic…it’s called slight of hand…it’s old as the hills.

That doesn't sound crazy. At all.

 

[JRH]

That doesn't sound crazy. At all.

Well ,thank you… I’m glad we agree…..have a great 4th… ?

 

[thewilliam]

I would buy a used grid-tie inverter (e.g. Sunny Boy SWR 2500U or 5000US or whatever) and connect it behind the power switch of pool pump or A/C.
After switch turns on, it waits 5 minutes then backfeeds the grid. Sized no larger than your load, no net backfeed actually occurs.
...

I was toying with this idea but being new to all this I am inclined to stay within written specs in my net metering agreement. The electrician that did my install said it would be  ok because for all they knew I could just be reducing my usage (we were discussing adding a few more panels/micros down the road). Technically I shouldn't be connecting anything to the grid that they don't know about and have ensured at least complies with some safety specs, and I get that.

 

[Hedges]

Over-paneling your grid-tie inverter could be the most beneficial.
Oh, microinverters? Not really possible then, typically over-paneled from the get-go.

I wouldn't want to do grid-tie with Chinesium inverters that aren't UL listed. But a quality UL-1741 inverter from SMA or Fronius would be completely safe. I guess another batch of microinverters could be connected same way.

If array or inverter wattage was less than A/C draw, installing such a system behind the relay, parallel to motor, could never cause export, would just reduce draw from grid (unless there was an over-temperature switch further downstream that shut off motor.) Inverter amperage would be in addition to what grid supplies through breaker, so you might want a fuse downstream of inverter to protect motor & wiring (one more chance to export, however.)

You can get hybrid inverters (can also operate batteryless) and configure them for zero export. One which is grid-interactive, can blend inverter power with PV/battery, could let you use the extra PV but prevent backfeed. Biggest issue is motor starting surge, if grid disconnected. Some, like SolArk, could AC couple your microinverters (likely not if IQ8) and export-limit so you never export more than the agreement allows. You could do that as a utility approved ESS, with battery to shave peak usage. Add more PV at some point, maybe after utility as already inspected.

Range of prices and capabilities, maybe $1k to $15k

Sounds like your electrician can help you do it without any violation except for the letter of your agreement.