$54k Sunrun OR $0.31/w New Panels Pallet + Growatt Grid-tie = Good Idea & ROI??

[CarlCruzin]

I had a consultation with Sunrun the other day and they quoted $54k for a 11.2kw grid-tie system. That is just insane, and I figured it would be, but still wanted to see what they were offering. The ROI on that is a TOUGH sell.

We are fortunate enough to get 1:1 net metering from our utility company, at the end of the year they purchase excess production at wholesale cost. I have been informed that once net metering is setup, it is locked in for 20yrs. I will confirm, but that is great news considering that many other states have pushed to discount net metering, making it less beneficial.

I am shooting for $10k total investment, less the 30% tax credit, I should reach ROI a LOT sooner.

So it got me considering the other side of the spectrum, not only DIY, but budget DIY:
- Growatt 10k Grid-tie inverter
- 11.2kw pallet of Hyundai 305w new panels
About $5k shipped to me.
- Local mom & pop solar company to file permit and install (waiting on quote Monday)

I realize that this isn't "Top of the line" equipment, but I wanted to throw the idea out here and see what Pro's and Con's the community may think of my idea?

I would like to have a hybrid grid-tie but the only option I'm seeing is the EG4 18kpv which is 4x the price of the growatt...

Future Considerations: I also have the following equipment sitting around that I just removed from my RV before selling. So I may want to integrate it later to offer some battery backup
- 2x 48v 5kwh Gyll batteries
- 1x Sungold Power 6500w hybrid off-grid inverter (single phase)

 

[zanydroid]

No downsides other than the Hyundais maybe looking aesthetically old (I haven't looked at that deal)

I think those Hyundais are cheap enough to more than cancel out the extra racking costs from their smaller form factor.

Since you have 1-1 net metering I would not worry about batteries for a while, they will only decrease your ROI and complicate both AHJ and POCO permitting.

The con of that growatt is that you are locked into more expensive batteries vs the 18kpv, I believe those growatts take high voltage batteries which means higher cost and less readily accessible accessories like chargeverter or other independent charger, and when the inverter breaks you need to replace with another compatible inverter.

I looked at the growatt HV inverter manual the other day and I believe it can be used for whole house backup, all necessary add on accessories are provided but will add cost, narrowing the gap to 18kpv.

 

[CarlCruzin]

No downsides other than the Hyundais maybe looking aesthetically old (I haven't looked at that deal)

I think those Hyundais are cheap enough to more than cancel out the extra racking costs from their smaller form factor.

Since you have 1-1 net metering I would not worry about batteries for a while, they will only decrease your ROI and complicate both AHJ and POCO permitting.

The con of that growatt is that you are locked into more expensive batteries vs the 18kpv, I believe those growatts take high voltage batteries which means higher cost and less readily accessible accessories like chargeverter or other independent charger, and when the inverter breaks you need to replace with another compatible inverter.

I looked at the growatt HV inverter manual the other day and I believe it can be used for whole house backup, all necessary add on accessories are provided but will add cost, narrowing the gap to 18kpv.

That is a good point about the panels. That and they are 18.5% efficient and the next step up is 20.5% canadian solar 400w panels for $.407/w. My roof layout is triangular so I might try and fit the larger panels. But if they are too bulky, it may turn out I can get more solar on my roof with smaller, less efficient panels.

I attached an image of the layout Signature solar was recommending for the Hyundai 305w panels.

Regarding the Growatt, I didn't even realize that it would support battery backup. That is a crazy high battery voltage. An alternative that I was considering is installing my Sungold 6500w hybrid with utility pass through to power critical circuits. That way I can utilize the 2 battery packs in the instance of an outage.

 

[zanydroid]

That is a good point about the panels. That and they are 18.5% efficient and the next step up is 20.5% canadian solar 400w panels for $.407/w. My roof layout is triangular so I might try and fit the larger panels. But if they are too bulky, it may turn out I can get more solar on my roof with smaller, less efficient panels.

So efficiency just means how much area the panels will take up, for a given wattage. If you have space for 10% more panels and are saving more than 10% (considering full system cost not just panels) then that is a win.

I have both 345W and 400W panels. The 345 is in a similar weight class to the Hyundai you are considering, but about 10% heavier due to the higher output at the same efficiency. I got the 345 to fit some corners better than the 400. The logistics of getting two panel sizes in is kind of annoying (local pickup is likely a must because freight panel orders less than a pallet are awkward and using two sizes means it's that much harder to use a full pallet), and mixing is awkward (electrically inefficient) for string inverters. I use microinverters.

 

[CarlCruzin]

So efficiency just means how much area the panels will take up, for a given wattage. If you have space for 10% more panels and are saving more than 10% (considering full system cost not just panels) then that is a win.

I have both 345W and 400W panels. The 345 is in a similar weight class to the Hyundai you are considering, but about 10% heavier due to the higher output at the same efficiency. I got the 345 to fit some corners better than the 400. The logistics of getting two panel sizes in is kind of annoying (local pickup is likely a must because freight panel orders less than a pallet are awkward and using two sizes means it's that much harder to use a full pallet), and mixing is awkward (electrically inefficient) for string inverters. I use microinverters.

Since my roof space is limited, and I don't have alternative mounting surfaces, I believe I will need to maximize roof utilization if I hope to achieve 100% offset. Signature solar has a nice flat-rate freight shipping price for $5k+ orders, so I may be able to easily add some smaller individual panels at no additional freight cost.

 

[zanydroid]

Did you run PVWATTS yet and compare with your annual energy usage after all upcoming fuel to electric conversions are implemented? You don't really need that big of an array where I am (California) to achieve full offset if under 1:1, though time of use rates getting worse can change that for grandfathered 1-1 customers.

Another issue with smaller individual panels is that it will make your roof look like a hodgepodge. Chances of getting two different panels on sale that happen to look similar are unlikely. My odd corners are tucked away where nobody can see, and those happened to be the clear parts of my roof so extra valuable.

You would want to confirm with SS that you are ordering enough of each size for the pallet to have structural integrity. Small orders are at higher risk of shipping damage. Santan has a minimum because of this.

I would recommend asking for a layout with bigger panels and with a mix, if possible.

 

[zanydroid]

Forgot to mention this point. One smart thing IMO is to consider buying the cheapest grid tie inverter you can find (if it comes with hybrid, sure why not). And treat it as semi-disposable thing you have a good chance of replacing soon since things are changing so quickly in the hybrid space. I don't think 18kpv nor SolArk 15K can justify their extra cost in 3 years.

48V is much more mature and DIY friendly than HV right now and there are some permitting concerns around HV in residential (if you start modifying it), but who's to say the whole ecosystem of HV equipment won't show up once HV batteries come down in price / way more people are trying the HV hardware off AliExpress.

 

[OPTIMALSOLAR]

One thing, at least here in Texas, buying back at wholesale means about 3 cents a kw. So if rate from utility is 12 cents, and they give 3 cents, you can see the math towards roi changes.

My one year in solar, with all the variables north texas provides, confirmed that if grid tied, reducing grid by 70 percent inexpensively is about the sweet spot towards roi. 100 percent as is the standard advert is a near always terrible starting point.



Good luck.

 

[1201]

I had a consultation with Sunrun the other day and they quoted $54k for a 11.2kw grid-tie system. That is just insane, and I figured it would be, but still wanted to see what they were offering. The ROI on that is a TOUGH sell.

We are fortunate enough to get 1:1 net metering from our utility company, at the end of the year they purchase excess production at wholesale cost. I have been informed that once net metering is setup, it is locked in for 20yrs. I will confirm, but that is great news considering that many other states have pushed to discount net metering, making it less beneficial.

I am shooting for $10k total investment, less the 30% tax credit, I should reach ROI a LOT sooner.

So it got me considering the other side of the spectrum, not only DIY, but budget DIY:
- Growatt 10k Grid-tie inverter
- 11.2kw pallet of Hyundai 305w new panels
About $5k shipped to me.
- Local mom & pop solar company to file permit and install (waiting on quote Monday)

I realize that this isn't "Top of the line" equipment, but I wanted to throw the idea out here and see what Pro's and Con's the community may think of my idea?

I would like to have a hybrid grid-tie but the only option I'm seeing is the EG4 18kpv which is 4x the price of the growatt...

Future Considerations: I also have the following equipment sitting around that I just removed from my RV before selling. So I may want to integrate it later to offer some battery backup
- 2x 48v 5kwh Gyll batteries
- 1x Sungold Power 6500w hybrid off-grid inverter (single phase)

Heck yeah.
Get that nice diy roi and worry about backup later

 

[solar8484]

Stay away from SunRun. Class action lawsuit in progress for deceptive sales. Lots of complaints on BBB.

You should be able to get a better quote from other more reputable installers in your area. Get at least a handful of quotes before making final decision.

 

[CarlCruzin]

One thing, at least here in Texas, buying back at wholesale means about 3 cents a kw. So if rate from utility is 12 cents, and they give 3 cents, you can see the math towards roi changes.

My one year in solar, with all the variables north texas provides, confirmed that if grid tied, reducing grid by 70 percent inexpensively is about the sweet spot towards roi. 100 percent as is the standard advert is a near always terrible starting point.



Good luck.

That is a good point. However, considering how cheap it looks like this route will be, I am leaning towards risking a surplus at the end of the year. The only thing I can't get away from is their $35 monthly service fee. But I suppose it's fair given the net metering agreement.

 

[zanydroid]

The more libertarian minded folks on here might differ but you do need to pay SOMEWHERE for grid backup reliability. With net metering you are also renting the grid as a battery at an extremely good deal.

 

[Hedges]

You may be required to have RSD boxes per PV panel when using HV string inverter (as opposed to microinverters.)

I use SMA Sunny Boy. That line is discontinued, being replaced with Sunny Boy Smart Energy which also takes HV battery.
It is not yet described as providing backup, just time shifting. But I would expect it to later get an external transfer switch and auto-transformer like used for Sunny Boy Storage. Expect it to have anemic startup surge, so not for large motors.

The models up to 7.7kW have been announced, and data sheet shows up to 11.4kW not yet released. Someone heard $2800 MSRP for the 11.4kW model.

Alternatively, starting with any old cheap hybrid or GT PV inverter may be the way to go, and later replace with SolArk, Midnight, or other reputable product.

 

[Siamac]

It's crazy how this day and age with tesla being very transparent about their prices, which are very good, and people are still getting ripped off by Sunrun. Why don't people just go with Tesla? You can get cheaper prices from other companies by negotiating, but tesla isn't bad at $2.7/watt. The company I went with would literally be half that Sunrun price.

 

[OPTIMALSOLAR]

Why? Because the marketing of solar is a horror show of dishonesty and ignorance, and many fall for no money down deals that way over promise, under educate, and desire only a signature. Great products. Scary bad marketing and may the customer be mightily aware, and most aren't.

 

[G00SE]

The Hyundais look like a good deal, just depends on how much PV you need

 

[k490]

Solar contractors can be all over the place with pricing from $3-8 a watt. The industry is full of schemes I get calls, and door to door salespeople telling me that my meter has to be updated.

I would do a permitted system yourself get a company like greenlancer to draw up the plans. From what I have read here cost is less than $500 for the design plans. You could even install used panels and used micro-inverters get on eBay at a fraction of the price of what a contractor would charge you. If you get 1-1 net metering that would work for you. The micro-inverters meet the RPS requirements so firefighters can shut down the panels. I would bet total cost for 11k would be less than $8000. You can go on YouTube check out micro-inverter install.