Will this small grid tie work?

[John117]

Hi all, I live in Georgia, and my electric bill is high. After watching videos I came up with a set-up for a grid tie inverter, is very small because first, I don't know if it is gonna work or have any impact on my bill, second, it is cheaper this way and I can always scale up. I didn't include batteries or charge controller because supposedly is not necessary and will decrease the cost. I have made a drawing of what I intend to do, so hopefully folks that know more than me can give me advice. Thank you all in advance!

 

[Mattb4]

There are several issues with using an unapproved grid tie setup such as you ask about. I will however just touch on the idea it will reduce your electrical bill.

2-100w panels, at best, are likely only going to produce 1kWh from a day of sunshine. Unless your rates are really out of the Nations average of 12 cents per kWh the amount of bill reduction won't be noticeable. Also many of the plug in 120vAC grid tie units you will find for sale are junk and do not work as intended or for long. Thus money spent on them would be better spent on a arrangement that does not present problems for you if the Electric Company spots a back feed situation.

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

Avoid the whole issue of "grid-tie" anything. Put in a "parallel" solar gear arrangement of battery-bank, inverter/charger, and feed to loads that you "remove" from the grid, thus reducing your bill. No permit complexities, etc., if you are DIY. Or, less expensive if you need an electrician, as no grid-tie.

Order of actions could be something like:

0. (optional, but recommended) westinghouse auto-start inv-gen. no matter how reliable you think the grid is, it's going down. The grid is at least smart enough to pick the worst possible time to do so. Start planning now, and a westinghouse inv-gen with smart port gives you a potential ATS & auto-gen-start capability. Buy as much gen as you can. Wire to a reliance or similar service panel with extra circuit slots. Build a noise-dampening shed for the gen.

1. lifepo4 battery-bank, aio inverter (pick from 24v or 48v system reference voltage). no solar panels or mppt needed just yet. Feed a connection from grid to aio (this is a simple device connection, and not a complex grid-tie), and as battery-bank is drawn down, grid replenishes for now. Or gen could, if grid-down (which is why you want to get the gen in there). Wire some parallel circuits to some critical loads. Run them all the time from the parallel system, or flip them back to grid as you choose.

2. add solar panels (ground-mount) & mppt. now, your parallel loads are off the grid, saving you some money. expand the entire system as you can.

No matter what, you've got backup capability now (gen, inverter, battery-bank, and separate service panel). No more grid outages.

Hope this helps ...

 

[Hedges]

"Go big or go home"

You can put in net metering, maybe worth doing if large enough to reduce your bill.

Georgia does have net metering, so see what it takes to get utility permission to operate. Where I am in California, we apply on-line and list the quantity and model of equipment.

2024 Georgia Power Net Metering | EnergySage

Learn how Georgia Power's net metering policy works, who is eligible, and how you can use it to benefit from solar energy.

www.energysage.com

2024 Georgia Power Net Metering | EnergySage

Learn how Georgia Power's net metering policy works, who is eligible, and how you can use it to benefit from solar energy.

www.energysage.com

How much are your electric bills, summer and winter? How much fixed price, how much for consumption? What rate per kWh?
Average in Georgia is $0.14/kWh.

Electricity Cost in Georgia: 2024 Electric Rates | EnergySage

How much does electricity cost in Georgia? Learn what average electric rates and electric bills looks like in Georgia.

www.energysage.com

Solar electric makes more sense for people paying $0.25 or $0.60/kWh.

If you pay someone to install a system, expect to spend $2 to $4 per peak watt, for a system 2kW to 10kW. That will make power at a cost of $0.10/kW (amortized over 20 years), so you break even after 14 years (ignoring interest, time value of money) compared to just paying your utility. Something between 10 and 20 years break-even.

If you DIY, expect to spend $0.50 to $1.50 per watt. That will make power for about $0.03/kWh, break even in maybe 5 years, between 3 and 8 years.

Do you get power failures? You might want to make backup system for communications, cooling fan, etc.

You can do Guerilla grid tie without permission, get a name-brand GT PV inverter with UL-1741 listing (not just "tested to ..." from an off-brand) to ensure safety. If sized so it NEVER exceeds your loads, there won't be any backfeed so utility won't notice. If connected after the power relay of an A/C, it will only operate when the A/C is drawing power, so easier to ensure no backfeed. But if utility can see the panels, they may threaten to cut power.

 

[John117]

There are several issues with using an unapproved grid tie setup such as you ask about. I will however just touch on the idea it will reduce your electrical bill.

2-100w panels, at best, are likely only going to produce 1kWh from a day of sunshine. Unless your rates are really out of the Nations average of 12 cents per kWh the amount of bill reduction won't be noticeable. Also many of the plug in 120vAC grid tie units you will find for sale are junk and do not work as intended or for long. Thus money spent on them would be better spent on a arrangement that does not present problems for you if the Electric Company spots a back feed situation.

Thank you for the help. About the back feed grid, it's my understanding that even if I am not home, there is some basic amount of power being consumed by devices plugged and the A/C running, Wi-Fi, Alexa, tv's etc..., and because it is very little power coming in, this will never back feed. Or that's what I heard on YouTube.

What if I do 2×200w? Maybe I will see something there? About the Chinese grid tie inverters, I know they could be trash, but I am tempted to try this because it is easy and economical, kind of like an experiment. Worst case scenario, I re-use the solar panels for a small off-grid backup system to charge phones or whatnot.

I would love to do a bigger system, but I have limitations, my hose is in a HOA, and they don't want me to use like lots of solar panels in my roof, I can get away with 2 or 3 and not make them permanent, but more than that I would be in trouble. Plus, is very expensive, and I don't have confidence in my knowledge to go that big just yet.

 

[John117]

Hi all, thank you for all your answers!

 

[wpns]

About the back feed grid, it's my understanding that even if I am not home, there is some basic amount of power being consumed by devices plugged and the A/C running, Wi-Fi, Alexa, tv's etc..., and because it is very little power coming in, this will never back feed. Or that's what I heard on YouTube.

Yes, if you’re baseline load is always greater than your maximum solar production, you will never backfeed to the grid. However, if you figure out what your baseline is and build a solar array, that big, you will only offset a small fraction of your electricity use.

 

[John117]

"Go big or go home"

You can put in net metering, maybe worth doing if large enough to reduce your bill.

Georgia does have net metering, so see what it takes to get utility permission to operate. Where I am in California, we apply on-line and list the quantity and model of equipment.

2024 Georgia Power Net Metering | EnergySage

Learn how Georgia Power's net metering policy works, who is eligible, and how you can use it to benefit from solar energy.

www.energysage.com

2024 Georgia Power Net Metering | EnergySage

Learn how Georgia Power's net metering policy works, who is eligible, and how you can use it to benefit from solar energy.

www.energysage.com

How much are your electric bills, summer and winter? How much fixed price, how much for consumption? What rate per kWh?
Average in Georgia is $0.14/kWh.

Electricity Cost in Georgia: 2024 Electric Rates | EnergySage

How much does electricity cost in Georgia? Learn what average electric rates and electric bills looks like in Georgia.

www.energysage.com

Solar electric makes more sense for people paying $0.25 or $0.60/kWh.

If you pay someone to install a system, expect to spend $2 to $4 per peak watt, for a system 2kW to 10kW. That will make power at a cost of $0.10/kW (amortized over 20 years), so you break even after 14 years (ignoring interest, time value of money) compared to just paying your utility. Something between 10 and 20 years break-even.

If you DIY, expect to spend $0.50 to $1.50 per watt. That will make power for about $0.03/kWh, break even in maybe 5 years, between 3 and 8 years.

Do you get power failures? You might want to make backup system for communications, cooling fan, etc.

You can do Guerilla grid tie without permission, get a name-brand GT PV inverter with UL-1741 listing (not just "tested to ..." from an off-brand) to ensure safety. If sized so it NEVER exceeds your loads, there won't be any backfeed so utility won't notice. If connected after the power relay of an A/C, it will only operate when the A/C is drawing power, so easier to ensure no backfeed. But if utility can see the panels, they may threaten to cut power.

Thank you so much for taking the time to help me with this. I would definitely love to go big! but I can't... I live in a town home and I have restrictions with solar, can you believe it?! My roof is not even included in the HOA, but they still won't let me! HOA's are the worst... I will buy a normal house one day. But for now, I am stuck here, and I am limited with the amount of solar panels I can put up in my roof without getting in trouble.

I know about the net metering programs with Georgia Power, but is not that easy or cheap, HOA to the side, I don't have the money or the knowledge to do something so advanced YET. My rate is low 14 cents. But my house is old, (72) and I guess is very inefficient, because I spend 200.00 a month in electricity. I have done my best to lower it, all LEDs, timers on external lights, energy star appliances. My AC/Heater is a heat pump, I pay 4k for new attic insulation, but somehow heat and cold still leave the house, it is like it has wholes in it.

 

[John117]

Avoid the whole issue of "grid-tie" anything. Put in a "parallel" solar gear arrangement of battery-bank, inverter/charger, and feed to loads that you "remove" from the grid, thus reducing your bill. No permit complexities, etc., if you are DIY. Or, less expensive if you need an electrician, as no grid-tie.

Order of actions could be something like:

0. (optional, but recommended) westinghouse auto-start inv-gen. no matter how reliable you think the grid is, it's going down. The grid is at least smart enough to pick the worst possible time to do so. Start planning now, and a westinghouse inv-gen with smart port gives you a potential ATS & auto-gen-start capability. Buy as much gen as you can. Wire to a reliance or similar service panel with extra circuit slots. Build a noise-dampening shed for the gen.

1. lifepo4 battery-bank, aio inverter (pick from 24v or 48v system reference voltage). no solar panels or mppt needed just yet. Feed a connection from grid to aio (this is a simple device connection, and not a complex grid-tie), and as battery-bank is drawn down, grid replenishes for now. Or gen could, if grid-down (which is why you want to get the gen in there). Wire some parallel circuits to some critical loads. Run them all the time from the parallel system, or flip them back to grid as you choose.

2. add solar panels (ground-mount) & mppt. now, your parallel loads are off the grid, saving you some money. expand the entire system as you can.

No matter what, you've got backup capability now (gen, inverter, battery-bank, and separate service panel). No more grid outages.

Hope this helps ...

Thank you for the advice!

I will look for those name brands GT inverters.

 

[Mattb4]

Thank you for the help. About the back feed grid, it's my understanding that even if I am not home, there is some basic amount of power being consumed by devices plugged and the A/C running, Wi-Fi, Alexa, tv's etc..., and because it is very little power coming in, this will never back feed. Or that's what I heard on YouTube.

...

YouTube is not necessarily the best place to gather information from. You may indeed have enough continuous household loads that would mask a small feed from the plug in grid tie. However you can not trust any cyclic loads to not line up the point of being off all together. Constant loads are really an area that needs looking at.

The thing is you likely could save yourself the most on your electrical Bill by simply learning to turn off constantly on devices. I find that a plug in switch between such devices is very handy. If you get in the mindset that anything on like a room light is costing you money it will help. Too many folks nowadays have terrible energy conservation habits. They leave on all kind of items and then complain about their electrical Bill being high.

 

[Liam M]

There are several issues with using an unapproved grid tie setup such as you ask about. I will however just touch on the idea it will reduce your electrical bill.

2-100w panels, at best, are likely only going to produce 1kWh from a day of sunshine. Unless your rates are really out of the Nations average of 12 cents per kWh the amount of bill reduction won't be noticeable. Also many of the plug in 120vAC grid tie units you will find for sale are junk and do not work as intended or for long. Thus money spent on them would be better spent on a arrangement that does not present problems for you if the Electric Company spots a back feed situation.

Wow, $.12/kwh?!
I’m at $.42/.52 tier1/tier2

 

[wpns]

Yeah, start with an audit (clamp-on ammeter is your friend, not all loads are plugged in) and find out what your baseline is. Emporia or Sense will help a lot here too.

I helped a guy determine that the HVAC circulation fan (which he was running 24x7 to keep the air clean) was his biggest load. You just never know what you’ll find…

 

[John117]

Yes, if you’re baseline load is always greater than your maximum solar production, you will never backfeed to the grid. However, if you figure out what your baseline is and build a solar array, that big, you will only offset a small fraction of your electricity u

"Go big or go home"

You can put in net metering, maybe worth doing if large enough to reduce your bill.

Georgia does have net metering, so see what it takes to get utility permission to operate. Where I am in California, we apply on-line and list the quantity and model of equipment.

2024 Georgia Power Net Metering | EnergySage

Learn how Georgia Power's net metering policy works, who is eligible, and how you can use it to benefit from solar energy.

www.energysage.com

2024 Georgia Power Net Metering | EnergySage

Learn how Georgia Power's net metering policy works, who is eligible, and how you can use it to benefit from solar energy.

www.energysage.com

How much are your electric bills, summer and winter? How much fixed price, how much for consumption? What rate per kWh?
Average in Georgia is $0.14/kWh.

Electricity Cost in Georgia: 2024 Electric Rates | EnergySage

How much does electricity cost in Georgia? Learn what average electric rates and electric bills looks like in Georgia.

www.energysage.com

Solar electric makes more sense for people paying $0.25 or $0.60/kWh.

If you pay someone to install a system, expect to spend $2 to $4 per peak watt, for a system 2kW to 10kW. That will make power at a cost of $0.10/kW (amortized over 20 years), so you break even after 14 years (ignoring interest, time value of money) compared to just paying your utility. Something between 10 and 20 years break-even.

If you DIY, expect to spend $0.50 to $1.50 per watt. That will make power for about $0.03/kWh, break even in maybe 5 years, between 3 and 8 years.

Do you get power failures? You might want to make backup system for communications, cooling fan, etc.

You can do Guerilla grid tie without permission, get a name-brand GT PV inverter with UL-1741 listing (not just "tested to ..." from an off-brand) to ensure safety. If sized so it NEVER exceeds your loads, there won't be any backfeed so utility won't notice. If connected after the power relay of an A/C, it will only operate when the A/C is drawing power, so easier to ensure no backfeed. But if utility can see the panels, they may threaten to cut power.

Yeah, start with an audit (clamp-on ammeter is your friend, not all loads are plugged in) and find out what your baseline is. Emporia or Sense will help a lot here too.

I helped a guy determine that the HVAC circulation fan (which he was running 24x7 to keep the air clean) was his biggest load. You just never know what you’ll find…

Thank you, I didn't even know that was a thing I could do! I will research it!

 

[John117]

YouTube is not necessarily the best place to gather information from. You may indeed have enough continuous household loads that would mask a small feed from the plug in grid tie. However you can not trust any cyclic loads to not line up the point of being off all together. Constant loads are really an area that needs looking at.

The thing is you likely could save yourself the most on your electrical Bill by simply learning to turn off constantly on devices. I find that a plug in switch between such devices is very handy. If you get in the mindset that anything on like a room light is costing you money it will help. Too many folks nowadays have terrible energy conservation habits. They leave on all kind of items and then complain about their electrical Bill being high.

Thank you, I did most of what I could for the house, I added isolation in the attic, everything is LED and I don't let them on, timers, and sensors. My heat and air is a heat pump (which is supposed to be the most efficient nowadays) But the house is old, and I think is loosing heat/air trough doors and windows or bad wall isolation, dunno for sure. All the stated above did lower my bill specially in the winter, but it was less than expected, like 10 - 15%, So I was hoping to do this to get at least 5% off while I save money to change the doors and windows. Someone here suggested an electric audit to see what device is taking the most power, I will read about that as well.

 

[Mattb4]

Sounds like your home itself is never going to be ideal for energy usage and solar potential (the regulations and neighbors). If this is the case than spending money on it (other than to enhance a sale) is likely a lost cause.

 

[John117]

Sounds like your home itself is never going to be ideal for energy usage and solar potential (the regulations and neighbors). If this is the case than spending money on it (other than to enhance a sale) is likely a lost cause.

I will definitely move next year to a normal house without HOA and with a big yard to play with solar all I want.

 

[SSC00]

I know about the net metering programs with Georgia Power, but is not that easy or cheap, HOA to the side, I don't have the money or the knowledge to do something so advanced YET. My rate is low 14 cents. But my house is old, (72) and I guess is very inefficient, because I spend 200.00 a month in electricity. I have done my best to lower it, all LEDs, timers on external lights, energy star appliances. My AC/Heater is a heat pump, I pay 4k for new attic insulation, but somehow heat and cold still leave the house, it is like it has wholes in it.

yeah, if this is the case maybe you have some other stuff going on. What is you average monthly energy use and what sqft is your home? I think this makes sense to nail down first before any solar equipment is purchased. My home is basically 1900 sqft and ranges from 800 to 1200 kwh per month (about to do some upgrades that could reduce that load too.

Thank you so much for taking the time to help me with this. I would definitely love to go big! but I can't... I live in a town home and I have restrictions with solar, can you believe it?! My roof is not even included in the HOA, but they still won't let me! HOA's are the worst... I will buy a normal house one day. But for now, I am stuck here, and I am limited with the amount of solar panels I can put up in my roof without getting in trouble.

Just talk to the HOA and try to convince people in it to allow rooftop solar. Show them that rooftop solar adds value and isn't like someone buying some nasty car or never mowing their lawn etc. People are understandably resistant to things that they don't understand how it will affect them, so don't go in swinging. Just understand this. Tell them that whatever you do you will have a licensed electrician look over it or something. Most people running HOAs are not totally unreasonable people. HOAs can actually be a really good thing.

The state of Georgia has zero restrictions on putting solar on rooftops in general too. I live in Alabama where alabama power is not super jazzed about grid tied solar. That's ok, I'm just doing it behind the meter. lol