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Will's Review of Chins "Solid State?" Battery (Ganfeng LiEnergy Cell)

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hankcurt

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Just watched the review video here.

For obvious reason, I think the discussion of the video belongs in this section.

I checked out the Ganfeng cell data sheet, and noticed that in their safety testing, there is no puncture test nor any guarantee that it can be punctured and not combust.

It does have a crush test, which involves pushing a 75mm diameter half cylinder into the cell until the voltage drops to 0 or a certain pressure is reached. However, this would not puncture the cell.

It would be interesting to see if a cell can really pass the short circuit test without catching fire, as that is part of the data sheet testing.
 
They were probably safety sandals...:rolleyes:

I'm thinking the cells are lithium polymer or NMC based on the voltage range in the datasheet. Definitely have an exothermic reaction that releases oxygen to make them burn that fast.

Edit: I just took another look at the data sheet, and right at the top it says:
Product - Refers to the 42Ah/3.65V NMC solid-state lithium-ion cells produced by GFB.
Click to expand...
 
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hankcurt said:
They were probably safety sandals...:rolleyes:

I'm thinking the cells are lithium polymer or NMC based on the voltage range in the datasheet. Definitely have an exothermic reaction that releases oxygen to make them burn that fast.
Click to expand...
It defiantly had a exothermic reaction. Reminded me that it's getting colder out now and it's almost chili season.
 
I’m thinking that a puncture may short out the cells but limits the air entering at the beginning, when currents are initially the highest and allow the cell to discharge with time. We also don’t know what the state of charge was on the Chins video and that can play a big factor. When Will introduced the step drill to a charged cell, he tore it a new one with no chance to avoid the air catalyst ignition sequence. Looked a lot like a lithium polymer puff & poof to me.
 
I think this is a really valuable video, not so much to bash Chins or Ganfeng, but rather to emphasize that just because it says "solid state" doesn't mean that it is safe.

They probably do have some solid state component in the battery, and it definitely had a higher volumetric energy density than the lithium iron phosphate model. However, it still has a dangerous underlying chemistry. People will be fooled by the words 'solid state' and store this thing in their bedroom closet, which won't be a problem until something goes wrong with the battery control circuitry or a cell develops an internal fault. That's why I'm interested in seeing a trustworthy test of the short circuit reaction of one of these cells.

So far, it looks like they are solid state until suddenly they are plasma state. That's not good.
 
It is a Hybrid NMC Chemistry and the Puncture + Fire just proved it. Datasheet states this: "42Ah/3.65V NMC solid-state lithium-ion cells supplied by GFB." CHINS has better change their marketing materials because they are seriously misrepresenting.

Good Catch Will and I guess now more attention will have to be paid to the newer products making similar statements.

The pouch cell you pulled out looks more like this below (per markings)
Soft pack battery : http://www.ganfenglithium.com/pro3_detail_en/id/169.html

1664105206324.png
Where they show the "Solid state lithium ion battery" below

Semi-solid lithium ion cell

Solid state lithium ion battery
www.ganfenglithium.com
1664105749349.png















BTW, On the Ganfeng site they also have something else that looks Very Familiar ?
1664105011604.png

Communication energy storage system

Communication energy storage system
www.ganfenglithium.com
 
hankcurt said:
It would be interesting to see if a cell can really pass the short circuit test without catching fire, as that is part of the data sheet testing.
Click to expand...
Well, Will does seem to have some extra cells that he could pull out and do that with... I wonder how long a 10AWG wire would last as a direct short ... Poofdah I think - would love to see that on a video, hehehe. Safety Sandles & Shorts excluded, ,-).

@Will Prowse I hope you got that as a free sampler ! I think from this point, anything CHINS should be suspect until proven IMO.
 
Sorry about the lack of safety during this procedure. I watched the puncture test video, read the data sheet and chins made it seem like the safest cell on the planet. It was silly for me to trust any of these sources of information. Will be better prepared next time.

I did have my buckets of water nearby as always though.

I do have a lifepo4 pouch cell. May need to do the same test to show people the difference.

And yes, this was a true thermal runaway event. If this was lifepo4 and the drill bit caused combustion of the electrolyte, it would slowly burn (check out high techs labs
cell burn video).
 
Will Prowse said:
It was silly for me to trust any of these sources of information.
Click to expand...
An assumption that could have seriously harmed you & your property !
I would suggest if you are going to do similar tests, make a small U Shaped "bunker" out of Cinder-blocks about 3' high to contain it. Don't wanna tick off the neighbours OR Fire Dept. for that fact. ;)
 
Will Prowse said:
Sorry about the lack of safety during this procedure.
Click to expand...
It made for an entertaining video at least. I wouldn’t be surprised if it becomes a high view count clip, as people do love a good destructive test.

I’m surprised a company like Chins want to risk their brand image putting out a product like this, which seems sure to burn down a few homes sooner or later. Seems like short term thinking.
 
So the difference between the way NMC and LiFePO4 burn relates to the source of the oxygen. Both have a flammable electrolyte.

In the video @HighTechLab made, he points out that you can see the cell material glowing red hot inside the battery. Definitely hot enough to ignite flammable vapors. However, the hot material is surrounded only by fuel with no oxygen available so it doesn't ignite. Then when he pokes the second hole in the battery, he provides a way for oxygen to get to the hot vapor and it spontaneously catches fire. I've seen utility workers weld a tap onto a live natural gas line safely, relying on the same principle that if they exclude the oxygen there will be no fire.

With the "solid state" NMC cells, oxygen is released by the high temperatures at the same time the flammable vapor is released by the high temperatures. The result is a blow torch effect.
 
Steve_S said:
It is a Hybrid NMC Chemistry and the Puncture + Fire just proved it. Datasheet states this: "42Ah/3.65V NMC solid-state lithium-ion cells supplied by GFB." CHINS has better change their marketing materials because they are seriously misrepresenting.

Good Catch Will and I guess now more attention will have to be paid to the newer products making similar statements.

The pouch cell you pulled out looks more like this below (per markings)
Soft pack battery : http://www.ganfenglithium.com/pro3_detail_en/id/169.html

View attachment 113438
Where they show the "Solid state lithium ion battery" below

Semi-solid lithium ion cell

Solid state lithium ion battery
www.ganfenglithium.com
View attachment 113440















BTW, On the Ganfeng site they also have something else that looks Very Familiar ?
View attachment 113437

Communication energy storage system

Communication energy storage system
www.ganfenglithium.com
Click to expand...

I first thought, "solid state"(!), is it a true super capacitor + LFP hybrid and CHINS beat everyone to it?!?! And on a cool-looking case to boot!

A similar case in point:

And then, "What a bummer!" :LOL:

Very misleading, they should have just labeled it as Lithium NMC. Glad Will's ok.
 
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I wonder what cells are inside the BigBattery razor?

This guy here does some testing and its quite impressive. A little bit of smoke, but still worked even after puncture.

 
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