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Will's Review of Chins "Solid State?" Battery (Ganfeng LiEnergy Cell)

hankcurt

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Just watched the review video here.

For obvious reason, I think the discussion of the video belongs in this section.

I checked out the Ganfeng cell data sheet, and noticed that in their safety testing, there is no puncture test nor any guarantee that it can be punctured and not combust.

It does have a crush test, which involves pushing a 75mm diameter half cylinder into the cell until the voltage drops to 0 or a certain pressure is reached. However, this would not puncture the cell.

It would be interesting to see if a cell can really pass the short circuit test without catching fire, as that is part of the data sheet testing.
 
They were probably safety sandals...:rolleyes:

I'm thinking the cells are lithium polymer or NMC based on the voltage range in the datasheet. Definitely have an exothermic reaction that releases oxygen to make them burn that fast.

Edit: I just took another look at the data sheet, and right at the top it says:
Product - Refers to the 42Ah/3.65V NMC solid-state lithium-ion cells produced by GFB.
 
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They were probably safety sandals...:rolleyes:

I'm thinking the cells are lithium polymer or NMC based on the voltage range in the datasheet. Definitely have an exothermic reaction that releases oxygen to make them burn that fast.
It defiantly had a exothermic reaction. Reminded me that it's getting colder out now and it's almost chili season.
 
I’m thinking that a puncture may short out the cells but limits the air entering at the beginning, when currents are initially the highest and allow the cell to discharge with time. We also don’t know what the state of charge was on the Chins video and that can play a big factor. When Will introduced the step drill to a charged cell, he tore it a new one with no chance to avoid the air catalyst ignition sequence. Looked a lot like a lithium polymer puff & poof to me.
 
I think this is a really valuable video, not so much to bash Chins or Ganfeng, but rather to emphasize that just because it says "solid state" doesn't mean that it is safe.

They probably do have some solid state component in the battery, and it definitely had a higher volumetric energy density than the lithium iron phosphate model. However, it still has a dangerous underlying chemistry. People will be fooled by the words 'solid state' and store this thing in their bedroom closet, which won't be a problem until something goes wrong with the battery control circuitry or a cell develops an internal fault. That's why I'm interested in seeing a trustworthy test of the short circuit reaction of one of these cells.

So far, it looks like they are solid state until suddenly they are plasma state. That's not good.
 
It is a Hybrid NMC Chemistry and the Puncture + Fire just proved it. Datasheet states this: "42Ah/3.65V NMC solid-state lithium-ion cells supplied by GFB." CHINS has better change their marketing materials because they are seriously misrepresenting.

Good Catch Will and I guess now more attention will have to be paid to the newer products making similar statements.

The pouch cell you pulled out looks more like this below (per markings)
Soft pack battery : http://www.ganfenglithium.com/pro3_detail_en/id/169.html

1664105206324.png
Where they show the "Solid state lithium ion battery" below
1664105749349.png















BTW, On the Ganfeng site they also have something else that looks Very Familiar ?
1664105011604.png

 
It would be interesting to see if a cell can really pass the short circuit test without catching fire, as that is part of the data sheet testing.
Well, Will does seem to have some extra cells that he could pull out and do that with... I wonder how long a 10AWG wire would last as a direct short ... Poofdah I think - would love to see that on a video, hehehe. Safety Sandles & Shorts excluded, ,-).

@Will Prowse I hope you got that as a free sampler ! I think from this point, anything CHINS should be suspect until proven IMO.
 
Sorry about the lack of safety during this procedure. I watched the puncture test video, read the data sheet and chins made it seem like the safest cell on the planet. It was silly for me to trust any of these sources of information. Will be better prepared next time.

I did have my buckets of water nearby as always though.

I do have a lifepo4 pouch cell. May need to do the same test to show people the difference.

And yes, this was a true thermal runaway event. If this was lifepo4 and the drill bit caused combustion of the electrolyte, it would slowly burn (check out high techs labs
cell burn video).
 
It was silly for me to trust any of these sources of information.
An assumption that could have seriously harmed you & your property !
I would suggest if you are going to do similar tests, make a small U Shaped "bunker" out of Cinder-blocks about 3' high to contain it. Don't wanna tick off the neighbours OR Fire Dept. for that fact. ;)
 
Sorry about the lack of safety during this procedure.
It made for an entertaining video at least. I wouldn’t be surprised if it becomes a high view count clip, as people do love a good destructive test.

I’m surprised a company like Chins want to risk their brand image putting out a product like this, which seems sure to burn down a few homes sooner or later. Seems like short term thinking.
 
So the difference between the way NMC and LiFePO4 burn relates to the source of the oxygen. Both have a flammable electrolyte.

In the video @HighTechLab made, he points out that you can see the cell material glowing red hot inside the battery. Definitely hot enough to ignite flammable vapors. However, the hot material is surrounded only by fuel with no oxygen available so it doesn't ignite. Then when he pokes the second hole in the battery, he provides a way for oxygen to get to the hot vapor and it spontaneously catches fire. I've seen utility workers weld a tap onto a live natural gas line safely, relying on the same principle that if they exclude the oxygen there will be no fire.

With the "solid state" NMC cells, oxygen is released by the high temperatures at the same time the flammable vapor is released by the high temperatures. The result is a blow torch effect.
 
It is a Hybrid NMC Chemistry and the Puncture + Fire just proved it. Datasheet states this: "42Ah/3.65V NMC solid-state lithium-ion cells supplied by GFB." CHINS has better change their marketing materials because they are seriously misrepresenting.

Good Catch Will and I guess now more attention will have to be paid to the newer products making similar statements.

The pouch cell you pulled out looks more like this below (per markings)
Soft pack battery : http://www.ganfenglithium.com/pro3_detail_en/id/169.html

View attachment 113438
Where they show the "Solid state lithium ion battery" below
View attachment 113440















BTW, On the Ganfeng site they also have something else that looks Very Familiar ?
View attachment 113437


I first thought, "solid state"(!), is it a true super capacitor + LFP hybrid and CHINS beat everyone to it?!?! And on a cool-looking case to boot!

A similar case in point:

And then, "What a bummer!" :LOL:

Very misleading, they should have just labeled it as Lithium NMC. Glad Will's ok.
 
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I wonder what cells are inside the BigBattery razor?

This guy here does some testing and its quite impressive. A little bit of smoke, but still worked even after puncture.

 
Will, you really lucked out in the first video when you poked a hole into the pack with the screwdriver.
You could have burned down your workshop. A bigger hole would have ignited it just like what happened afterwards. Also the other 13 cells were within inches of it. By the way, happy birthday.
 
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@Will Prowse Thanks for following up with the same test on a lithium iron phosphate cell of similar dimensions. I also appreciate the extra notes you put in the video with the temperature response curves and the run-away temperature for each chemistry.

And it is also relavant to the question @Cyanlite previously posted in this thread about the razor battery. I believe those are lithium iron phosphate cells from BYD. Part of the secret sauce as to why they have so little reaction to puncture is their surface area to volume ratio. By making the cells narrow and long, BYD gives the heat from internal damage a way to dissipate more easily, so the extremely high temperatures required for lithium iron phosphate oxygen release are never reached inside the battery. As long as the battery pack construction also facilitates the heat dissipation, the cells should be really safe.
 
@Will Prowse Thanks for following up with the same test on a lithium iron phosphate cell of similar dimensions. I also appreciate the extra notes you put in the video with the temperature response curves and the run-away temperature for each chemistry.

And it is also relavant to the question @Cyanlite previously posted in this thread about the razor battery. I believe those are lithium iron phosphate cells from BYD. Part of the secret sauce as to why they have so little reaction to puncture is their surface area to volume ratio. By making the cells narrow and long, BYD gives the heat from internal damage a way to dissipate more easily, so the extremely high temperatures required for lithium iron phosphate oxygen release are never reached inside the battery. As long as the battery pack construction also facilitates the heat dissipation, the cells should be really safe.

From what I gather, the difference with LiFePO4 chemistry is that burning doesn't release additional oxygen.
 
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Will, you really lucked out in the first video when you poked a hole into the pack with the screwdriver.
You could have burned down your workshop. A bigger hole would have ignited it just like what happened afterwards. Also the other 13 cells were within inches of it. By the way, happy birthday.
No, the other cells weren't nearby, what you see is an empty battery case.
 
The drill test is great and yet I would be more concerned about general operating conditions such as over voltage protection.
Will there be a second battery that actually works?
 
The drill test is great and yet I would be more concerned about general operating conditions such as over voltage protection.
Will there be a second battery that actually works?

The "solid state" battery discharge specs were not robust, and it's more expensive and dangerous than a LiFePO4.
 
Excuse my ignorance, but is water the right way to put out a lithium battery fire?

I don't think there is a "right way" to put out a lithium fire. Isn't the only thing you can do is smother the external flames a bit until it burns itself out? If you were to dunk it in a tank of water, it will just keep on burning while the water turns to steam. If you were to bury it in sand, it will just keep burning, heating up the sand.
 
Excuse my ignorance, but is water the right way to put out a lithium battery fire?
Eh.. this is why 'safety' is such a vague thing and is usually treated as lowest common denominator when technically 'it depends' on soo many things.

If there is nothing nearby which is ignitable the safest thing to do is not mess with it!
If there is something nearby which is ignitable and can be moved without exposing yourself to danger, just move it.
I think actually disturbing/messing with the fire itself comes after that or only if that is not possible.

But 'putting out' a fire is not always necessary so much as 'keeping other things from catching on fire' is. Pouch cell is guaranteed hot garbage (ha jokes) whether you put it out or let it burn, so putting it out is optional. Keeping other things from burning is more important.

Keeping other things from burning or catching on fire could be multiple forms such as slowing conduction of heat from source to it, or lowering temp of source by conducting some of its heat away into something cooler that you don't care about heating up (putting water on it could work, dirt, flour, etc), lowering temp of thing you are trying to avoid igniting (spray it with water probably works), add thermal mass to thing you don't want to ignite (water works again, if you can spray it periodically or constantly). Even just spraying water on the ground in a circle around this fire would be a viable way to prevent damage to the concrete (charring/cracking/spalling etc).

So just because water might not be the 'right' way to 'put out' a fire doesn't mean you don't have a range of options of how to use water to keep a situation from escalating. Directly spraying it onto the thing that is on fire may not be the best way to use it, but its also not the only way to use it. I can't think of many fire situations where water would have no use at all. I think the main thing is to think before you act. You don't want to make a tiny fire MORE dangerous by indulging your knee-jerk reaction impulses. I would venture that the likely most important first thing to do in most fires is actually to protect your eyes and lungs and THEN think about managing the heat energy.
 
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Excuse my ignorance, but is water the right way to put out a lithium battery fire?
You might be thinking of the way lithium metal reacts with water violently to form lithium hydroxide and releases hydrogen gas in the process, which will usually self ignite from the heat of reaction.

With a lithium ion battery fire, most of the heat is coming from the flammable electrolyte reacting with the oxygen released from the electrode material. There isn't so much elemental lithium available to react with the water that adding water will make the situation worse, and as @Vigo said, the important thing is to bring down the temperature and prevent fire spread to other nearby materials.

There was an extensive test done in 2013 on EV batteries to see how effective water was at extinguishing an electric car fire. For people who like reading and pictures of burning batteries, there is nearly 200 pages of smoldering goodness to enjoy. It appears that they made a car mock-up with a Chevy Volt battery in it and then used burners to heat it until it caught on fire. They measured internal heat, car chassis electrical current and fire hose electrical current. All of the hose nozzle current readings were under 2 ma. Anyway, they came to the conclusion that water could be safely used to contain the lithium battery fire, with a high risk of self re-ignition once it appeared the fire was out.
 
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