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Inverters High or Low Frequency ?

Any LF or HF inverter I would consider is pure sine wave and you can find YT videos that show they are pretty clean.

Although idle consumption will be higher I believe you answered your own question when you mentioned 10x surge needs. Clearly a big honking transformer is needed here right?

If you want that surge capacity you pay with a high idle consumption.

Just read a bunch of threads on the forum about HF’s not handling loads or watch some Dave Poz vids with his mitre saw tests.
 
Well, after bloviating all over this thread it looks like I have crow to eat.

 
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The stupid thing about non-big-transformer based inverters when it comes to modified vs sine is the real component difference is the output inductor and filter capacitors and sine PWM board. It's actually not a lot more expensive to make a SPWM inverter vs a MSW. Some even use the same PWM board, just move a link and it produces SPWM instead of MSW.

Big transformer sine wave inverters do cost a lot more, quality for quality, because of that big hefty transformer.
 
Looking for opinions on the advantages and disadvantages of High & Low Frequency Inverters for an RV
I've been reading the replies and I haven't seen any links to an authoritative source. I've seen plenty of opinions. I'll have to search a bit for something better. As far as I know, the manufacturers have given up the heavy steel transformers and replaced them with small Ferrite core transformers and power MOSFETs. This means that they save $$$ and the consumer saves $$$. But if the consumer needs the heavy iron transformers, it costs a lot more.
 
Largely the high frequency inverter area is dominated by Chinese manufacturers that produce in general poor quality devices, but they are cheap. The more expensive quality manufacturers have largely left the small HF inverter field because they just can't make money. There are still some quality units to be had, and even some better Chinese ones though. This only happens because people keep buying the really cheap crap, but it's so cheap that when (not if) it blows up, you can just buy another one.

The quality manufacturers have largely moved to low frequency big transformer units where they continue to produce quality units that will actually perform. They aren't cheap and the Chinese cheapies are making headways here too. Powerjoke, err sorry, Powerjack, is one of the cheapies. There are plenty of reasonable Chinese ones to select from but don't expect them to last as long as the quality units from the likes of Victron etc.

If you are in it for the long term, buy a quality unit. If it matters that it always works, buy a quality unit. If you don't mind getting up at 3am to replace the inverter because it just randomly died and you have the foresight to have a spare in the cupboard, buy a cheapie.
 
I've been reading the replies and I haven't seen any links to an authoritative source. I've seen plenty of opinions. I'll have to search a bit for something better. As far as I know, the manufacturers have given up the heavy steel transformers and replaced them with small Ferrite core transformers and power MOSFETs. This means that they save $$$ and the consumer saves $$$. But if the consumer needs the heavy iron transformers, it costs a lot more.
The cheap manufactures may have given up on serious transformers, but high quality inverters continue to use them. This is the inside of my Victron Multiplus 24/2000-50.

20200712_184712.jpg

LF vs HF is not really the thing it used to be.

Back in the dawn of time, saber-tooth cave inverters consisted of inefficient, heat producing electronic switches that reversed the polarity of a 200 VDC power supply 120 times per second, creating what was probably the worst excuse for 60 Hz 120 VAC power (certainly the noisiest electrically) that has ever existed.

Somebody got the bright idea of running that terrible, square wave power through a ferroresonant transformer which did a credible job of converting that garbage into relatively pure sine wave power and in the process added some serious surge capability (read up on ferroresonant transformers if you care to understand why). This is when "Monster Surge LF" inverters became a thing.


Some time after the fall of the Roman Empire, but decades before today, people figured out how to make true sine wave inverters that didn't need nearly as much filtering as the caveman inverters did. Unfortunately not long after this, the Chinese noticed and said "hey, we can copy this only we will squeeze every last penny out the design so we can sell them for $100 and still make a huge profit". This is when "wimpy HF" inverters became a thing. There is nothing inherently wimpy or bad about HF inverters. A motor drive (VFD) is essentially a variable frequency/voltage version of a HF inverter and you can buy VFD drives out of a catalog that will output over 200,000 W (that is what a 300 HP Motor requires). they are not exactly cheap, but considering how much power they can output all I can say is WOW!


The problem is that a lot of the "value engineered" Chinese crap inverters perform about as well as those $15, 200W powered PC speakers did.

You can buy excellent, reliable HF inverters that deliver their rated power and can handle surge loads without problems. The reason why we aren't all running out to buy them is they cost 2 or 3 times as much as the Chinese crap does and we want the real quality for the China-Crap price.

It is like looking at SawzAll saws and comparing Harbor Freight to a Milwaukee. They kinda look the same and you see similar claims printed on the box. But one costs $$ and the other costs $$$. What to bet which one will be sitting in a dumpster in a couple of months and which one is actually able to do what it claims to be able to do?

I went down this trail for a while. The inverter I bought is the above Victron Multiplus. Yes it is big and heavy. Yes it is was expensive. But 20 years from now my electrical system will still be meeting requirements.

-Edit-

That is not a ferroresonant transformer. The Multiplus converts the battery voltage into an incredibly high current AC waveform then passes it through a step up transformer. This is another advantage to a high quality inverter. The high voltage AC is galvanically isolated from the DC batteries. Even if components fail (and parts will eventually fail in every piece of equipment ever made), that inverter is not going to put 120 VAC on my battery pack because of that transformer.
 
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Xantrex and Outback are good examples of low freq transformer or 'Heavy Iron' inverters, although some folks will argue they use high frequency. If you cry foul on these being low frequency, then you also have to do the same for 'transformerless' high freq inverters that are not truely transformerless.

I believe the Outback guys may be the first to make use of higher leakage inductance laminated core transformers. Normally a power transformer wants to have low leakage inductance but a higher leakage inductance transformer has an advantage for this application. I am not sure but think they PWM at 6-10 kHz. I believe that because I have heard of complaints from people hearing whine from inverter.

High frequency (smaller ferrite core transformer DC-DC boost inverters) issue is the filter toroids that must be used on output AC. The high freq PWM must be filtered out to get average low freq sinewave. The low freq sinewave current is like high DC bias current on the toroid core, requiring it to be quite large to avoid satuation of core. If manufacturer skimps on the toroid core size the sinewave will look good for low AC load current but at higher AC load current the inductance of the toroids drops and the PWM ripple starts to show up on output AC. The toroid can also have a problem with output surge current saturating the toroid. It also has higher reactive load at idle causing more idle power consumption on the inverter.

The trick of making a low frequency transformer with higher leakage inductance is the equivalent series inductance of the transformer can provide the needed series inductance of the PWM filter. Only a capacitor need be placed across the output winding.

As to advantages and disadvantages, obviously weight is disadvantage to heavy iron transformer. More a consideration for RV/mobile apps. There are arguements in favor of heavy iron for dealing better with power line lightning hits and normal grid flicker and flash.

You have to watch out for the idle current consumption on high frequency 'tranformerless' inverters About 2x more idle current is about the ballpark range.

I have to mention the oldy goldy Trace stacked low freq tranformer inverter design. It used three transformers, papa bear, 135v, mama bear, 45v, and baby bear 15v, secondary voltages windings tied in series. Based on primary side drive, each transformer can produce +V, 0, or -V outputs. That allowed 3^3 = 27 discrete step voltages that is used to piece together a bit choppy sinewave. The baby bear transformer ran at the highest freq which was about 240 Hz. Very heavy inverter, but almost bullet proof.
 
My Giandel HF inverter idles, no load, at about 250mA (24v).
 
My Giandel HF inverter idles, no load, at about 250mA (24v).
Sounds a bit low. 6 watts.

I haven't measured it yet, but the Victron stuff is supposed to have very low idle load.

I wish that slow boat from China would get here so I can finish my battery. I didn't realize how long that Daly BMS was going to take to get here when I ordered it.
 
It's not the cleanest on the DC, draw bobs around a fair bit, up to 500mA but also much lower. Not really sure what is going on there, measured with the scope incase the noise was fubaring the DMM but it wasn't. About the only thing I can attribute it to is the DC boost supplies are winding right back since there is very little load, then kicking into action again when the HV rail eventually drops a bit. Paper 2kW unit.

I measured the draw some time ago with a cheapie disposable meter too and found it to be similar and posted 500mA on the forum at the time.
 
It's not the cleanest on the DC, draw bobs around a fair bit, up to 500mA but also much lower. Not really sure what is going on there, measured with the scope incase the noise was fubaring the DMM but it wasn't. About the only thing I can attribute it to is the DC boost supplies are winding right back since there is very little load, then kicking into action again when the HV rail eventually drops a bit. Paper 2kW unit.

I measured the draw some time ago with a cheapie disposable meter too and found it to be similar and posted 500mA on the forum at the time.
Are you referring to the Giandel?

I imagine all of these smart inverters are going to have odd looking idle power consumption. They go to sleep, they wake up, is anybody there? No? Back to sleep...

It is the average power draw that matters.
 
Yes, because ... :) but I understand the confusion, that I might be referring to the Victron.
My Giandel HF inverter idles, no load, at about 250mA (24v).

No, this is not sleep mode. It doesn't have that feature, no bells nor whistles on this thing, the AC waveform is always present. But for the inconvenience of dismounting, disassembling and probing it I'd take a look at what the boost supplies are up to, and that would likely confirm what I suspect is going on.
 
At lower power levels the lowest switching R_on resistance is not needed so an inverter can save power by shutting down switching on some of the parallel devices. There is some lag bringing them back on line when needed and sudden step demand is toughest to handle without some output voltage dip. This on-demand drive adds complexity to design and is likely not found on cheaper or lower power inverters.
 
You can buy excellent, reliable HF inverters that deliver their rated power and can handle surge loads without problems. The reason why we aren't all running out to buy them is they cost 2 or 3 times as much as the Chinese crap does and we want the real quality for the China-Crap price.
Can you link to some examples? I'm curious to see the surge capability including duration of surge for quality HF units.

I went down this trail for a while. The inverter I bought is the above Victron Multiplus. Yes it is big and heavy. Yes it is was expensive. But 20 years from now my electrical system will still be meeting requirements.

-Edit-

That is not a ferroresonant transformer. The Multiplus converts the battery voltage into an incredibly high current AC waveform then passes it through a step up transformer. This is another advantage to a high quality inverter. The high voltage AC is galvanically isolated from the DC batteries. Even if components fail (and parts will eventually fail in every piece of equipment ever made), that inverter is not going to put 120 VAC on my battery pack because of that transformer.
Quality considerations aside, there are topology differences as well. Your Victron Multiplus (I have one as well) is a LF topology, it has a PWM controlled FET bridge right off the battery and transforms that low voltage high current switched output up to line voltage--rather than first generating high voltage DC and then PWM switching that.

I am also an EE but not a power supply expert, that's a field of its own. But my understanding is that the big FETs required to switch that high current low voltage signal in this topology also have big drive needs, so a lower switching frequency is used but still high enough to PWM for a good sine wave. I believe that the Multiplus units are 20 kHz rather than hundreds of kHz or higher in HF topologies. And with the large isolated magnetics they have inherently higher surge capability and higher tolerance for load transients.

Again I'm not a power supply expert, genuinely curious on this topic and I see you've selected a LF inverter yourself after advocating HF, so I'm interested in your reasoning. And theory aside, what I see in products actually on the market is HF products that have short duration "surge" that is useless in any practical sense and LF products that have usable surge, like the Victron unit.
 
300% surge capability for 20 seconds.

See here:

Pretty sure that's a LF unit. They list it as a transformer-based unit, one of their split-phase produced, and in this link they say " These low-frequency split-phase inverters "
https://www.sigineer.com/product-category/inverter-chargers/split-phase-inverter-chargers/

And in this link it shows it is same LF topology as the Victron Multiplus:
https://d2mkuqdfjd17yj.cloudfront.n...-both-AC-mode-and-Battery-mode_v-20190417.pdf

In their 12V inverter chargers they say " Sigineer Power boasts to have the widest line of low frequency 12v inverter charger second to none in China. Our pure sine wave 12v inverter charger is available in wattages from 600 watts to 4,000 watts. " And the models shown look same family as the 48V unit you linked:
https://www.sigineer.com/product-category/inverter-chargers/12v-inverter-chargers/

Plus it weighs 49 lbs...
 
Can you link to some examples? I'm curious to see the surge capability including duration of surge for quality HF units.


Quality considerations aside, there are topology differences as well. Your Victron Multiplus (I have one as well) is a LF topology, it has a PWM controlled FET bridge right off the battery and transforms that low voltage high current switched output up to line voltage--rather than first generating high voltage DC and then PWM switching that.

I am also an EE but not a power supply expert, that's a field of its own. But my understanding is that the big FETs required to switch that high current low voltage signal in this topology also have big drive needs, so a lower switching frequency is used but still high enough to PWM for a good sine wave. I believe that the Multiplus units are 20 kHz rather than hundreds of kHz or higher in HF topologies. And with the large isolated magnetics they have inherently higher surge capability and higher tolerance for load transients.

Again I'm not a power supply expert, genuinely curious on this topic and I see you've selected a LF inverter yourself after advocating HF, so I'm interested in your reasoning. And theory aside, what I see in products actually on the market is HF products that have short duration "surge" that is useless in any practical sense and LF products that have usable surge, like the Victron unit.
The Victron is a high frequency inverter.

It chops the battery voltage using PWM into approximately 8 VAC, then uses a step up transformer to boost the voltage to 120 VAC.

What you refer to as a low frequency inverter is a simple square or modified sine wave inverter cleaned up by passing the output through a ferroresonant transformer. The ferroresonant transformer adds surge capability all by itself. A ferroresonant design has problems of its own (which is why they are not used much now). They are not happy about being lightly loaded and if left unprotected will overheat if the load is disconnected. These designs also have a lot more harmonic noise than a well executed modern design.

The isolation transformer in the Victron is not what provides the surge capabillity. That is provided by a well designed inverter with conservatively rated components. Otherwise known as good engineering.

As I argued previously, a well engineered, modern HFinverter is superior to both "value engineered" Chinese crap AND obsolete inverter designs based on ferroresonant transformers.
 
The tag LF has marketing value, but I seriously doubt that any inverter designed in the last 20 years actually meets the definition of a low frequency. And once you understand what a true low frequency inverter is, why would you want one?
 
There are almost no pure low frequency inverters in this power range any more. Everything is PWM driven. It makes no sense in this day and age to do it any other way. Even the several hundred kW arena is not done low frequency, or for that matter large transformer mode either (they are HF direct PWM).

The only thing I'm aware of where magnetics are used to produce sine output these days is in HVDC transmission.
 
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