Portable EV Battery in working car used as Home BackUp Power

[Capt Bill]

This tread started in a different Thread/ now growing for a larger conversation:
started from: Nissan Leaf Partnering with AEP Ohio

Nissan Leaf Partnering with AEP Ohio

I just got an email from my electric company, AEP Ohio. I wanted to share this info with the forum because of what I see coming down the pipe. They are offering $6,000 cash back on the purchase of a new Nissan Leaf which can be combined with a $7,500 federal discount. I don’t usually recommend...

diysolarforum.com

... which included Power Sharing Tech link: https://electrek.co/2018/11/28/nissan-energy-leaf-vehicle-to-home-building/

WHO has been experimenting with this idea besides the big guys ????
You might be interested: Nissan Energy Share Technology: There is more info. about this Energy Sharing idea at this link:

Nissan Energy Share is changing the energy model of the world

Nissan Energy Share | Innovation |

Nissan’s Nissan Energy Share: Nissan’s various technologies, including electrification, autonomous drive, connected car & service, mobility service, and energy management, are introduced.

www.nissan-global.com

"Nissan Energy" is the general term for solutions that use the electricity storage and discharge functions of batteries installed in Nissan electric vehicles (EVs), and further improves their appeal. One of those solutions is Nissan Energy Share, where EVs act as mobile storage batteries to supply homes and society with electricity. Nissan is aiming for a distributable energy model, and will contribute to the stabilization of the supply and demand of electricity in the world."

My Curious Mind also searched for :
... Tesla Energy Share & Tesla Energy Share Technology; and so far, ... I have not yet found specifics; Please share if you do.

I find this a fascinating topic. I am wondering what kind of DIY interfaces might get invented for DIYs wanting to use their EVs as their flexible, portable backup house power supply; and/or as part time batteries they could plug in, integrate, and use to expand the Battery Ahs of their current home solar system. ... Food for Thoughts, Experimenting, and Innovations :+)

P.S. My Take: ... I think the likely log jamming bottle neck for these kind of ideas to just take off big time is giant grid owner corporations "being afraid" of losing their monopoly powers.

 

[jasonhc73]

Have you looked up V2G or V2H?

The Japanese government after the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant failure used chademo to feed the grid from EV's.
Unfortunately, the rest of the world went with CCS (except China).
Chademo died a quiet unceremonious death when Nissan showed the world their Ariya, not using chademo.

There are 3 or 4 companies now working and beta testing V2G with CCS.

Elon thinks it's a dumb idea, so he really doesn't want to continue the V2G idea.

In the macro-scale V2G means you don't have to have a second house battery. You get to just plug in your car. If your car is full, which it probably will be and the power goes out, which it probably won't in 1st world areas, you might get to back feed the grid, if you have a net meter, which you probably don't. ?

 

[Capt Bill]

Have you looked up V2G or V2H?

The Japanese government after the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant failure used chademo to feed the grid from EV's.
Unfortunately, the rest of the world went with CCS (except China).
Chademo died a quiet unceremonious death when Nissan showed the world their Ariya, not using chademo.

There are 3 or 4 companies now working and beta testing V2G with CCS.

Elon thinks it's a dumb idea, so he really doesn't want to continue the V2G idea.

In the macro-scale V2G means you don't have to have a second house battery. You get to just plug in your car. If your car is full, which it probably will be and the power goes out, which it probably won't in 1st world areas, you might get to back feed the grid, if you have a net meter, which you probably don't. ?

Found Interesting V2G info on Wiki; and Interesting VH2 (Vehicle-to-home (V2H) or vehicle-to-building (V2B) or vehicle-to-everything (V2X) at this web link: https://www.emobilitysimplified.com/2019/12/what-is-vehicle-to-grid-v1g-v2g-v2x-v2h.html

I will be studying more about this. Just spent last week bing watching Youtube lessons about electric vehicles on the market as I considered some used Nissan Leafs on craigslist in the $5k - $10K range. Might eventually go for maybe a 2016 Nissan Leaf w a 30kWh battery, and also thought the Chevy Volt (kind of a hybrid) was interesting. I do not yet know what exact battery voltages these various EV operate at, but the idea of a bi-directional option has lite up my interest meter. I am Wondering hard about: Who in the DIY arena has been experimenting with this "Bi-Directional" idea of using an working EV to power a home, and/or some how integrate with a solar home battery bank. I would imagine experimenting along this bi-direction line of option would involve some complicated computer electronics (above my current capabilities) to go at; ... while also thinking it would involve experimenting to some how tap into that Fast DC charge plug, and mastering electronic communication protocols of that plug, would be part of the (experiment's) picture. ... Plus I wonder how "integration" of the contrasting of voltages /as in difference between an EV battery voltage, and a home solar system ... might be be handled. Most likely too much of a Challenge for a common DIYs (whatever that means), but I bet this idea might already be part of some computer nerds DIY experiments. Maybe somebody with a computer chip background will figure out a kit we could some day buy to integrate a working EV into our Solar Home Battery on a part time basis. ... This line of Questions and Ideas are stimulating my Curiosity :+)

 

[Capt Bill]

Also: Found this Sept 5, 2020 article (searching with CCS along side V2G V2H) ... Interesting: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/05/the-present-future-of-vehicle-to-grid-technology/

 

[jasonhc73]

My city purchased 4 Proterra Busses. They are 100% Battery EV, notice the CCS-1 Connection the busses get charged with. It is a V2G machine.

Mind you the buses will never be used to supply power to the grid, it is just capable of bidirectional current.

This is from December 12th, 2019;

 

[Capt Bill]

Just found this Related DIYSolarForum Thread from last year: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/using-an-ev-car-as-your-emergency-backup-battery.57/ ... and reading more this morning. I see mention of a "Honda power exporter", that maybe was made? (still reading) for fuel cell powered EVs, for AC output from their DC in plug ... (as per this attached picture I found). Who is working on this kind of idea for non fuel cell EVs ??? Any Products like that on the Market these days? I AM LOOKING for such a product/ just to know more about what is going on in that arena.

... I think this could be a great project for a network of DIY types that includes some computer chip savy / circuit board expertise ... To develop some kind of Power Exporter that is two way, that could integrate into a solar home's battery bank, and expand its' Ah capacity on the fly. If a group of folks are not already working on such a project, or already producing something like this; I absolutely think it is a great idea. Once a working protocol was achieved / I bet such a project could even be a profit maker type project in the stock market (to get it manufactured after some flexible working prototype(s) were achieved . I attached the Honda Power Exporter picture here for an imagination amper.

... P.S. I am on my 70th Orbit around the Sun these days. I learned in my college days (in a "Creative Awareness" class outside my College curriculum/ from a teacher that pass this on), that the "Pictures" in our minds are the "Native Language" of our Creativity (the deep more powerful side of our mind). ... thus learned how to let go of the "Don't" and "Can't" type words that kind of feed critic word tape loops attached to too many pictures of the opposite of where we want to to go, or can go, ... and too often block our creative abilities ... I like being on the Curious Creator side of my mind; and this post reflects my two cents worth of Food for Thoughts and Collaborating Imaginations. :+)

 

[yabert]

I'm looking at a V2H solution since many years now (I started to drive 100% electric in 2009). But there is no simple solution at the moment except to plug a 12V inverter on the car (who take energy on the 360DC battery to power 12V battery via DC-DC converter).
Also, directly use CCS combo plug to connect your car to the house imply a CCS controller... something inexistant on the diy marcket.

In my case, I would be able to connect an inverter directly on the 360V junction box of my Bolt EV to obtain power for my house, BUT there is no off grid inverter with 360V input.
Sad there is no simple solution for this.

 

[Capt Bill]

I would be able to connect an inverter directly on the 360V junction box of my Bolt EV to obtain power for my house, BUT there is no off grid inverter with 360V input.

Interesting; So the Bolt EV has a 360vdc battery bank? I have been wondering what kind of battery voltage ranges the various EVs I have been considering in the use market, have; ... while noticing the EV specs I look at do NOT go into that detail (on surface). I wonder: If there was a DC-AC Inverter/ Converter for powering up a 120vac split phase house subpanel, that could take an EV battery volatge dc direct, and convert to 240vac split phase / ... I wonder if one could plug in ac volt amp/ watts at slightly higher voltage (than the solar ac in) while the Solar AC was going in too, and over power the Solar AC in to let it throttle back; , and/or be adjusted to throttle back the Solar AC, or go the other way (maybe like grid ties might function?/ possilbe at slight higher ac voltage to push that ac back into the grid, ... just imagining it works that way) ??? ... I wonder even more; What kind of electronics / moffets, SSRs, transformers, computer ship circuit board e equipemet would it take to integrate a 360vdc EV battery into working connection with a 48vdc home solar system battery bank / ... on the charging/ discharging sides of a Solar Home System. ... In my view: Somebody, or some innovated group with that goal, could do it. I bet the big guys have their prototypes dialed in, or started in some fashion. Who, in the DIY smaller guy arena, is working on this idea of making it possible to use an EV Battery as portable Home BackUp Power (on the fly). ??? I love to see and economical kit on the market, and would even invest money in that idea when I saw a working prototype with good supportive information. Food for Taking OFF ... :+)

 

[JoeHam]

Way back before virus times I would hear Bob give a talk at Hamvention every year along these lines.

Here is some info about tapping into EV power.

His website has a wealth of info including some on how to home brew EV charging cables.

See here:

http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html

And here is his site map, plenty of good content:

http://aprs.org/sitemap.html

 

[yabert]

Interesting; So the Bolt EV has a 360vdc battery bank?

In fact, majority of electric car have nominal voltage around this. They are often call 400V battery, but really they are generally build from 96 cells in series and have a nominal voltage around 350V-360V DC, so a voltage range approximately of 300V to 400V.
Of course there start to have EV with 800V battery (Porsches Tycan, trucks), but large majority have 360V battery.

Imagine, in used market there's batteries on wheel cost less/per kWh than a new Powerwall and to add you can go to the grocery store with your battery

Really, I can't understand why there is no available product right now to connect your car to your house. For the DIY marcket the only thing we need is a CCS gun with controller who tell at the car that all is ok, close the battery contactor, you will receive or give energy to the house + an invereter with 360V DC input.

 

[jasonhc73]

I'm looking at a V2H solution since many years now (I started to drive 100% electric in 2009). But there is no simple solution at the moment except to plug a 12V inverter on the car (who take energy on the 360DC battery to power 12V battery via DC-DC converter).
Also, directly use CCS combo plug to connect your car to the house imply a CCS controller... something inexistant on the diy marcket.

In my case, I would be able to connect an inverter directly on the 360V junction box of my Bolt EV to obtain power for my house, BUT there is no off grid inverter with 360V input.
Sad there is no simple solution for this.

There is a about two dozen simple solutions.

You have to have a car with chademo.

V2X – Chademo Association

www.chademo.com

 

[Capt Bill]

Way back before virus times I would hear Bob give a talk at Hamvention every year along these lines.

Here is some info about tapping into EV power.

His website has a wealth of info including some on how to home brew EV charging cables.

See here:

http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html

And here is his site map, plenty of good content:

http://aprs.org/sitemap.html

Thanks, ... Looks very interesting at just a glance. On my List to check out soon.

 

[Capt Bill]

There is a about two dozen simple solutions.

You have to have a car with chademo.

V2X – Chademo Association

www.chademo.com

Thanks, I see if I really dive in to understand possibilities more thoroughly, I will have to study about CHAdeMO and other Communication Protocols use on the Higher Amp DC Charge plugs.

 

[yabert]

There is a about two dozen simple solutions.

You have to have a car with chademo.

Yeap, but like the large majority of EV owner, I don't have Chademo (CCS combo or Tesla are other types). Also, those products are really expensive.
Why I can find many 500vdc input inverter with 230vac 50Hz output in the 400$ to 1000$ range, but no 500vdc input inverter with 120vac 60Hz output (or better, 120/240 split phase output)?

 

[Samsonite801]

Found Interesting V2G info on Wiki; and Interesting VH2 (Vehicle-to-home (V2H) or vehicle-to-building (V2B) or vehicle-to-everything (V2X) at this web link: https://www.emobilitysimplified.com/2019/12/what-is-vehicle-to-grid-v1g-v2g-v2x-v2h.html

I will be studying more about this. Just spent last week bing watching Youtube lessons about electric vehicles on the market as I considered some used Nissan Leafs on craigslist in the $5k - $10K range. Might eventually go for maybe a 2016 Nissan Leaf w a 30kWh battery, and also thought the Chevy Volt (kind of a hybrid) was interesting. I do not yet know what exact battery voltages these various EV operate at, but the idea of a bi-directional option has lite up my interest meter. I am Wondering hard about: Who in the DIY arena has been experimenting with this "Bi-Directional" idea of using an working EV to power a home, and/or some how integrate with a solar home battery bank. I would imagine experimenting along this bi-direction line of option would involve some complicated computer electronics (above my current capabilities) to go at; ... while also thinking it would involve experimenting to some how tap into that Fast DC charge plug, and mastering electronic communication protocols of that plug, would be part of the (experiment's) picture. ... Plus I wonder how "integration" of the contrasting of voltages /as in difference between an EV battery voltage, and a home solar system ... might be be handled. Most likely too much of a Challenge for a common DIYs (whatever that means), but I bet this idea might already be part of some computer nerds DIY experiments. Maybe somebody with a computer chip background will figure out a kit we could some day buy to integrate a working EV into our Solar Home Battery on a part time basis. ... This line of Questions and Ideas are stimulating my Curiosity :+)

Yeah the concept of bi-directional is intriguing to me as well. The biggest challenge to interfacing car systems with home systems is widely different voltages. A standard modern home system may run a 48v battery bank most of the time, and of course the system use AC standard as well, to potentially interface with. A car voltage can vary a lot in voltage from model to model, because the higher the horsepower or range they decide they might want, they find it's easier to raise the voltage higher so their cables and conductors can run lower amperages, and meet the big needs found in automotive applications.

But getting say, 384v from a car to a house requires some kind of DC-DC switching converter, and going the other direction back to the car requires DC-DC switching converter as well. Large manufacturers can easily design devices to meet this need of moving power back and forth, but they usually would have to be built very specific to the voltage ranges they intend to interface with. Since cars come in a wide variety of voltages, this is a mess for the aftermarket.

Obviously DC-DC switching converter would have the least loss in conversion. If we could get some converters to interface common automotive battery voltages to charge to 48v battery banks, and then chargers which can charge back 48v directly to the higher voltage car batteries, that would be most efficient.

But for now, being the mess that it is for the aftermarket, or the hacker (lack of inexpensive custom range DC-DC converters), it almost seems like DC to AC conversion, is more practical and flexible, because the car already has an onboard AC charger for it's battery (charging off of home inverter AC power), then the hacker only needs to find a commonly available inverter solution to get power from the car battery bank to AC, then to the all-in-one generator input, and he can charge back his home bank from the car.

As you saw in my other post, my Prius is using this setup now, post the link for others to see it:

Charge house backup battery from car

I could use some advice evaluating options for charging backup batteries (in the house) from the car (on the nearby driveway). The car, as the (trip-hazard) cable runs, is about 20 feet from the kitchen (the closest enclosed space in the house), or about 60 feet from the basement (by the...

diysolarforum.com

And of course, I had heard of the guy who used a Midnight Classic charge controller, on custom profile for wind generator (as some of the MPPT chargers can tolerate very high input voltages) to plug straight into the car battery, and they are designed to charge the 48v home battery bank directly. He seemed to report back good luck in getting that to work. This would have less conversion loss since not going DC > AC > DC...

Prius as backup generator with midnight classic as voltage converter possible? - Solar Panels - Solar Panels Forum

!!UPDATE!! 6-10-2020 below you will find the thread and my thought process I went through to make this work. Yes you heard it right it's working and so far been working 8 months 16 hours every night. If you want to know more I suggest you read the whole thread but skipping to February 3rd will...

www.solarpaneltalk.com

Skip to the post in his thread where he shows it working well:

Prius as backup generator with midnight classic as voltage converter possible? - Solar Panels - Solar Panels Forum

!!UPDATE!! 6-10-2020 below you will find the thread and my thought process I went through to make this work. Yes you heard it right it's working and so far been working 8 months 16 hours every night. If you want to know more I suggest you read the whole thread but skipping to February 3rd will...

www.solarpaneltalk.com

 

[Capt Bill]

Yeah the concept of bi-directional is intriguing to me as well. The biggest challenge to interfacing car systems with home systems is widely different voltages. A standard modern home system may run a 48v battery bank most of the time, and of course the system use AC standard as well, to potentially interface with. A car voltage can vary a lot in voltage from model to model, because the higher the horsepower or range they decide they might want, they find it's easier to raise the voltage higher so their cables and conductors can run lower amperages, and meet the big needs found in automotive applications.

But getting say, 384v from a car to a house requires some kind of DC-DC switching converter, and going the other direction back to the car requires DC-DC switching converter as well. Large manufacturers can easily design devices to meet this need of moving power back and forth, but they usually would have to be built very specific to the voltage ranges they intend to interface with. Since cars come in a wide variety of voltages, this is a mess for the aftermarket.

Obviously DC-DC switching converter would have the least loss in conversion. If we could get some converters to interface common automotive battery voltages to charge to 48v battery banks, and then chargers which can charge back 48v directly to the higher voltage car batteries, that would be most efficient.

But for now, being the mess that it is for the aftermarket, or the hacker (lack of inexpensive custom range DC-DC converters), it almost seems like DC to AC conversion, is more practical and flexible, because the car already has an onboard AC charger for it's battery (charging off of home inverter AC power), then the hacker only needs to find a commonly available inverter solution to get power from the car battery bank to AC, then to the all-in-one generator input, and he can charge back his home bank from the car.

As you saw in my other post, my Prius is using this setup now, post the link for others to see it:

Charge house backup battery from car

I could use some advice evaluating options for charging backup batteries (in the house) from the car (on the nearby driveway). The car, as the (trip-hazard) cable runs, is about 20 feet from the kitchen (the closest enclosed space in the house), or about 60 feet from the basement (by the...

diysolarforum.com

And of course, I had heard of the guy who used a Midnight Classic charge controller, on custom profile for wind generator (as some of the MPPT chargers can tolerate very high input voltages) to plug straight into the car battery, and they are designed to charge the 48v home battery bank directly. He seemed to report back good luck in getting that to work. This would have less conversion loss since not going DC > AC > DC...

Prius as backup generator with midnight classic as voltage converter possible? - Solar Panels - Solar Panels Forum

!!UPDATE!! 6-10-2020 below you will find the thread and my thought process I went through to make this work. Yes you heard it right it's working and so far been working 8 months 16 hours every night. If you want to know more I suggest you read the whole thread but skipping to February 3rd will...

www.solarpaneltalk.com

Skip to the post in his thread where he shows it working well:

Prius as backup generator with midnight classic as voltage converter possible? - Solar Panels - Solar Panels Forum

!!UPDATE!! 6-10-2020 below you will find the thread and my thought process I went through to make this work. Yes you heard it right it's working and so far been working 8 months 16 hours every night. If you want to know more I suggest you read the whole thread but skipping to February 3rd will...

www.solarpaneltalk.com

Thanks. Look way interesting ... I will come back and study ... :+)

 

[yabert]

The biggest challenge to interfacing car systems with home systems is widely different voltages... A car voltage can vary a lot in voltage from model to model, because the higher the horsepower

No! A 110 hp Nissan Leaf or a 700+hp Tesla S have the same quantity of cells in serie (96S) and around the same nominal voltage (350V-360V chemistry dependent).
Remove from the equation all the hybrides, plug in hybrides and after almost all electric car have similar nominal voltage based on a 96S battery. It's the case for Tesla cars, GM Volt, Spark* and Bolt, Nissan leaf, Kia electric cars, BMW electric cars and so.

the hacker only needs to find a commonly available inverter solution to get power from the car battery bank to AC,

Commonly available??? I want this, I want this. Where? Where?
Where to find 360vdc input inverter with 120vac output?

*Some Chevy Spark have LFP battery with higher count of cell, but same 360V nominal voltage.

 

[Hedges]

Sunny Boy Storage has connectors for 3 separate 400V lithium batteries (with compatible BMS).
It will charge/discharge the battery with a 240VAC connection.
One battery could be your stationary house battery, and another could plug into the vehicle.
By itself it performs peak shaving, but with an additional box (transfer switch, 120/240V transformer) it provides battery backup and interacts with GT inverters.

Sunny Boy Storage 3.8-US / 5.0-US / 6.0-US | SMA America

Discover the flexible Home Energy Solution: The SMA Sunny Boy Storage 3.8-US / 5.0-US / 6.0-US battery inverter! ► Find out more about its benefits!

www.sma-america.com

 

[Samsonite801]

Sunny Boy Storage has connectors for 3 separate 400V lithium batteries (with compatible BMS).
It will charge/discharge the battery with a 240VAC connection.
One battery could be your stationary house battery, and another could plug into the vehicle.
By itself it performs peak shaving, but with an additional box (transfer switch, 120/240V transformer) it provides battery backup and interacts with GT inverters.

Sunny Boy Storage 3.8-US / 5.0-US / 6.0-US | SMA America

Discover the flexible Home Energy Solution: The SMA Sunny Boy Storage 3.8-US / 5.0-US / 6.0-US battery inverter! ► Find out more about its benefits!

www.sma-america.com

Yeah, I saw these Sunny Boy ones, and they raised an eyebrow, wondering how they could work for hacker uses, definitely could work for something maybe. But the only thing I didn't like, is and correctly me if I'm misinterpreting the features, but as an inverter it can only supply 2kW of AC power, so it isn't really a practical whole-house AC inverter, although it could be useful for high voltage battery bank integration in other ways. I wonder how much they weigh? ...If they could be practically installed in a car without being cumbersome heavy like my APC inverter solution in the trunk... Or would be better suited for the home battery bank running at high voltage, you might need other inverters to provide more kW for local AC...

 

[Hedges]

6kW and 57 lbs.
(not including a transformer to make 120/240 out of 240)

I think that 2kW is a 120V reserve power feature, intended for convenience during grid failures. If you didn't buy "ABU" to go with it.

Because it is a grid-tie inverter, to use is as a stand-alone inverter it needs to be told to generate an island grid. The "Automatic Backup Unit" would conveniently, expensively, and heavily do that along with providing the 120/240 transformer. If you could provide the BMS interface to it from car's battery it should be great as a fixed location system to supply the house (and charge from GT inverters.) Just not great portable.