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diy solar

Solar Panels?

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FYI, I harvested 3.7 kWh yesterday during the equinox in sunny Phoenix. That's using two 330 W panels, baking a bit in the sun (80 degrees F outside) and not aimed correctly. (Peak power yesterday only 530 W. (Continuous sun.))

Using my figures and mutliplying up for your array, I calculate you would be making 12 kW a day if you are similarly situated. More if aimed correctly.
A question to make sure my thinking is straight. My goal is to build a relatively robust power cart for occasional and emergency household use. It will have 200Ah of 12v power storage (two 100Ah Battle Borns in parallel). My goal is not to go off-grid totally, but to be able to solar charge the batteries as fast as possible so that I can build a second power cart and potentially have one in use while another is charging. Like you, buying time. I'm also in my 60s and it's just my wife and I at home. We have a 3kW quiet Honda generator that could easily run our portable A/C unit and the refrigerator. So -- my solar project is all about having plenty of power to run the small potatoes for a while.

Someone on Craigslist is selling new 395-watt panels for $195 each. In rough numbers -- connected in series, four of those panels would deliver approximately 200 volts at 10 amps (not what I want, and a Victron 250/100 would cost over $900). Connected in parallel, however, the panels would deliver 50 volts at 40 amps, which is within the limits of a much less expensive Victron 100/50, and the Battle Borns have a maximum charge rate of 50 amps -- so the Victron would be theoretically dumping all the power into the batteries at a fairly rapid rate.

Have I got the math straight on this? I may also head out to Santan anyway, but am using those 395 watt panels as an example. Craigslist can be iffy.
 
I "hate" to suggest these panels, because if Will mentions them, they will sell out like SOK batteries did.

330 Watts for just over $200. (5% discount for first order.) Blows the doors off the silly 100 W panels that I was buying when I first got into solar.

I've seen two produce 687 Watts this month on a partly cloudy day (so they had cooled down before the sun come again) in Phoenx, AZ.

I've seen them produce 450 Watts on a cloudy day here!


No sales tax. (Something about Arizona not taxing solar stuff.)

The only "down" side, is that they are expensive to ship ($120 for the first) because they have to go by truck.

But if you live in AZ (or nearby) just drive up to Flagstaff to get them.

(@AZRoadrunner : If you drive up there, I would like to buy two more. I'm near I-17.)
pmikep, sorry for the silly question looked on the site solar-electric.com could not find what voltage those panels are 12v or 24v
 
Someone on Craigslist is selling new 395-watt panels for $195 each. In rough numbers -- connected in series, four of those panels would deliver approximately 200 volts at 10 amps (not what I want, and a Victron 250/100 would cost over $900). Connected in parallel, however, the panels would deliver 50 volts at 40 amps, which is within the limits of a much less expensive Victron 100/50, and the Battle Borns have a maximum charge rate of 50 amps -- so the Victron would be theoretically dumping all the power into the batteries at a fairly rapid rate.

Have I got the math straight on this? I may also head out to Santan anyway, but am using those 395 watt panels as an example. Craigslist can be iffy.
Your maths is off.
4 395 watt panels is 1580w
1580w into a 12V battery is 131A

A 50A Victron is only good for about 700w of panels at 14V

2 12V 100Ah BB in parallel can be charged at 100A which is 0.5C
 
pmikep, sorry for the silly question looked on the site solar-electric.com could not find what voltage those panels are 12v or 24v
Just look for the panel specs even on so called 12V or 24V panels.
Voc
Vmp
Imp
Isc
Forget about calling panels 12V or 24V if you are using a MPPT scc.
12v or 24v is referring to battery voltage catergories for PWM scc.
 
FYI, I harvested 3.7 kWh yesterday during the equinox in sunny Phoenix. That's using two 330 W panels, baking a bit in the sun (80 degrees F outside) and not aimed correctly. (Peak power yesterday only 530 W. (Continuous sun.))

Using my figures and mutliplying up for your array, I calculate you would be making 12 kW a day if you are similarly situated. More if aimed correctly.
I always derate everything I mention. I am only using 9 panels (2250w array) and it starts putting out power at 9am right now and goes until 6:30pm (at least it did yesterday), but these are used panels, facing more East than South, and almost flat (10 degrees). The good news is that I have room for 27 more, but that is way down the road (after the house is built if at all).

I intend to have at least 10kw of panels by the time I am done, maybe more. My house (when built) is going to have a large roof facing directly south (the back of the house).
 
Your maths is off.
4 395 watt panels is 1580w
1580w into a 12V battery is 131A

A 50A Victron is only good for about 700w of panels at 14V

2 12V 100Ah BB in parallel can be charged at 100A which is 0.5C
Dangit! I suspected my math was out of whack. I think I'll have to just go back to my original simpler system -- two 195-watt panels. That's 390 (theoretical) watts into 12 volts, which is 32.5 amps. That's a (theoretical) 6.25 hour charge into 200Ah of batteries. I can live with that. If I understand correctly, then -- an optional additional 195-watt panel would raise the maximum amps to 48.75 and reduce the charge time to a little over 4 hours. A Victron 100/50 would handle that?
 
So @Forbisher has brought to light an interesting fact about the Victron MPPT's, which I found a bit disappointing after I shelled out for a 150/35.

(I bough the Victron 150 V unit after maxing out my Rich Solar 20 unit, which would go into shutdown if my then array (five 100 W panels in series) over voltaged. (Which it did. It would hit 105 volts in the morning, before current started loading it down.) Now, it turns out that I'm running my two REC's in parallel, at only 37 Vmax and I could have saved money by not buying the Victron. (Although the Rich Solar would be at its max 20 Amps with what I have now, leaving no room for expansion. (I never forsaw that I should have bought the Rich 40 unit.) Although the Victron unit is better. (Although whether it's $200 better is questionable.)

I had thought (and it was MY fault for not reading their data sheet more closely) that my Victon 150/35 could handle 4.5 kW. (150 V x 30 A.)

But no - my MPPT can only handle 1000 W (in a 24 V system.) And as Forbisher pointed out, even less for a 12 v system.

So my first piece of advice for @AZRoadrunner is to go with a 24 v system. More efficient all around. And if you tell BB that you're going to run two of their 100 A in series, they will "match" them for you.

Now, if I were to take my 4 BattleBorns and wire them in series (for 48 V), then my MPPT can handle 1400 W (I think it is.) But Victron doesn't make a Multiplus that takes 48 V and puts out 120 VAC. And I would have to put more panels on the roof in a series/parallel connection. Which I don't have room for.
 
Good points, @pmikep. At this point, however, I already have a 12v/2kW inverter/charger and the Victron 100/50 100/30 is also on-hand -- which, looking at the specs again, is rated for 440W at 12 volts. I'll have 390 watts between the two panels and, as you've steered me towards, the Victron I have cannot handle a third panel. I'm learning....stuck at 12 volts for now, but learning....
 
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So @AZRoadrunner 's musings bring up an interesting question, for which I've not found a simple rule of thumb on the net. And that question is, what is the ratio of solar panel power to battery power that one should have for a usable solar station? (I suppose that "intended load" should be the actual metric - but since the battery bank has to supply more than the intended load, and perhaps with a safety factor of 2, I used battery bank capacity instead of load.)

Based on what I'm finding now with my own little experiment, I'm thinking the ratio is 3 or 4:1, to be really safe.

So here's what I'm currently doing. (Pun intended.) I am powering a mother-in-law sweet with my solar station. With one light on continuously, and this desktop computer, I draw about 170 Watts 24/7. It will be a bit more when I hook up the small refrigerator too.

Let's call it 200 watts/hr. That means that I will use 4.8 kW a day. My battery bank is 4.8 kW.

Just on its face, that doesn't sound good. A day without sun, and I have no more power.

So I wonder if there's a Rule of Thumb about the ratio of one's battery bank to the intended load?

It seems 2:1 at least.

Fortunately, it's been sunny here in AZ. So I'm going to focus now on just getting through a solar day, to get a feel for this problem.

As a baseline, at the equinox, I harvested 3.7 kW.

Naturally, that will increase as summer gets here. (Although maybe not as much as simple math would suggest, since the panels will be at 180 degrees F (or more?) in June, July and August and won't produce as much power.) I have to extrapolate to Dec 21, but I think I could have made 2 kW.

I should be using the shortest day worst case number of Dec 21 for my musings here. But for now, in real life, on the equinox, generating 3.7 kW doesn't fully recharge my battery bank with my 200 W load running continuously, I have to top off the bank at night via my Multiplus. (When electricity rates are lower.)

I haven't been able to wrap my head around a full day's calculations. But let's just focus on a solar day of 10 hours as a subset to see where I stand.

I harvest 3.7 kW and use about 2 kW for my load during the solar day (200 Watts x 10 hours). That leaves me with 1.7 kW to charge my batteries. Assuming that I started the morning fully charged (NOT a valid assumption, as below), that leaves me 1.4 kW short in the evening.

But in reality, I will never been fully charged in the morning if I were only charging with solar. So I will be even more discharged in the evening. I'll come back to this later.

If I had another 330 W panel, then (all things being equal) I could harvest 5.5 kW a day.

That should give me about 1.8 kW extra, which would fully charge my bank by the end of a 100% sunny day. (Again, assuming that I started with a fully charged battery in the morning.)

But this doesn't leave much of a reserve for partly cloudy days.

AND - my Victon MPPT maxes out at 1000 Watts. So if make more than 1000 Watts at peak day, then all things aren't equal.

(Since the best I've seen so far is 680 W from my two panels, I should never be much over 1000 watts. But this means that I am limited to three panels now. Unless I buy another MPPT.)

So all this means that, in the best case of a fully charged battery in the morning, I would break even if I had 1 kW of solar for my 4.8 kW battery bank.

That's a best case, with no reserve. And all this is with a crummy 200 W load.

If I keep my load at 200 W, it seems that I should have 2 kW of solar panels for rainy days. (Which means two MPPT's.)

Now, the reality is that, from the end of the solar day until the beginning the next morning, I will have used about 2 kW powering my load. (200 watts x 10 hours.) If I had started with a full charge at the end of the solar day (which will not happen, because I'll be losing power as the sun goes down) then already my battery bank will be down to 50% by morning.

In fact, here's an interesting aspect to this 'equation:' Even if I had a bazillion watts of solar, having more than enough solar power does not change this part of the analysis.

While, during the day, the batteries would reach full charge sooner with a bazillion watts of solar, they will begin to discharge at the same rate after the sun goes down as they would if I only had 2 kW of solar. So regardless of how much solar I have, I always lose the same power to my load overnight.

This tells me that there is a point of diminishing returns here. That you reach a point where adding more solar doesn't change this part of the equation.

And again this brings me back again to the thought that there should be a Rule of Thumb for the ratio of battery bank to load. Because, fundamentally, if your bank capacity is too small, you'll run out of power before the night is over.

Anyway, having lost 2 kW overnight means that I need to harvest an extra 2 kW in solar to fully charge my battery by the end of the day. (And I think "to the end of the day" is a clue here to optimizing how much solar power one needs.)

So, since I currently harvest 3.7 kW with 660 watts of panels, I would need yet another 330 W panel minimum (for a total minimal solar array of 1.3 kW) to fully charge my batteries by the end of the day.

Double 1.3 kW for reserve, is 2.6 kW. (And three MPPT's.)

So that's a solar power to battery powre ratio of 0.5.

And all this for a measly 200 watt load.

If my load doubles (think running a freezer and refrigerator, a window AC, a hot plate to cook food) I think that the math is NOT going to be linear (due to that overnight usage) and I would need maybe 2x the solar power.

I'll have to do that math for that case and see what I get.

But I'm too tired now from writing this all out.

Hopefully someone smarter than I am has the answer already.
 
Just look for the panel specs even on so called 12V or 24V panels.
Voc
Vmp
Imp
Isc
Forget about calling panels 12V or 24V if you are using a MPPT scc.
12v or 24v is referring to battery voltage catergories for PWM scc.
Frobisher, I am very green when it comes to solar just purchase a solar generator that's a 24v system. Now looking into buying panels. Trying to understand all this is Greek to me for now. So how would I know a panel is 24v to match up with my 24v generator. Just starting to get into solar, for now going with a portable generator and a couple of panels.
 
@AZRoadrunner Well, the Victon MPPT will limit your power if too much. With no harm done. So you can add the third panel and that will buy you some extra power in the morning and late afternoon. But not more peak power.
 
So how would I know a panel is 24v to match up with my 24v generator.

Just make sure the panel voltage is greater than 24v and you will be good. (more than better as long as the MPPT can handle it). You can also get there by using panels in series. Or just ask this forum :p
 
I agree with @Forbisher that referencing panels by "12v" or "24v" is not very helpful.

I suppose that if you're running a 24 volt battery system, as I am, then by calling a panel a '12 v panel,' it tells me that either 1) I cannot use that panel by itself to charge my 24 battery bank or 2) I will need at least two of them to do the charging. (Since the panel has to put out more voltage than my battery in order to charge the battery.)

The better way is to simply look at the Voc and Vmp of the panel that you're interested in. In my case, using a Victon brand MPPT, Victon says the panel must produce 5 volts more than my battery voltage to start the charging process. In my case, that means that I need a panel that can put out more than 24 + 5, which means that Voc must be greater than 29 volts. (And, really, since a 24 volt batter will nominal be producing 27.2 v (13.6 x 2), then I need Voc to be 32 volts. )
 
Frobisher, I am very green when it comes to solar just purchase a solar generator that's a 24v system. Now looking into buying panels. Trying to understand all this is Greek to me for now. So how would I know a panel is 24v to match up with my 24v generator. Just starting to get into solar, for now going with a portable generator and a couple of panels.
Yeah you are so green that you don't think it is important to mention the brand and model of the solar generator you bought. Lolz

The solar generator has a max volts input and either has a PWM scc or MPPT.
You gotta read the specs on what you have.
I never heard of a 24V system solar generator.
 
Yeah you are so green that you don't think it is important to mention the brand and model of the solar generator you bought. Lolz

The solar generator has a max volts input and either has a PWM scc or MPPT.
You gotta read the specs on what you have.
I never heard of a 24V system solar generator.
It's a Point Zero Titan with one battery, in the future a second one
 
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