Can the electrical grid handle a boom in electric vehicles?

[curiouscarbon]

No apologies needed. Your dreams should come true!!!

 

[curiouscarbon]

Also I don’t know if this was unclear but it’s safe to put solar panels on house roof and also car roof. All roofs are beautiful. ?

 

[jwelter99]

Also I don’t know if this was unclear but it’s safe to put solar panels on house roof and also car roof. All roofs are beautiful. ?

Depends on the mounting. Many just use the 3M tape and no physical mechanical mounting. This is dangerous. But if someone wants to rivnut their roof; or lucky to have roof rail mounts; sure it can be safe. It still might not make sense depending on where you live/park.

 

[time2roll]

Also I don’t know if this was unclear but it’s safe to put solar panels on house roof and also car roof. All roofs are beautiful. ?

At what cost? Is this a $5,000 option? Roof rails would lose more to aerodynamics than the panels produce. And beauty is in the eye of the buyer with Tesla wanting to sell 100,000+ of these per month. Put the panels on your roof or in your yard, not on the vehicle.

 

[chrisski]

How much solar do you think can be put on a vehicle? At 320 wh per mile, will this really make a difference?

I find that if rather obvious things like adding panels to cars has not happened, there’s good design reasons. The more I researched it, I understand why.

You could change my mind if you can show these panels will get more than 5 miles a day.

 

[Supervstech]

I am one of those Trolls, Should I apologize first so you won't consider it rude but as a personal preference, I would rather have my solar panels on my roof instead of my car?

I mean... how many people that own a Tesla park it outside?
Wouldn’t it be better to have. Solar on the garage roof? Surely the solar gain WHILE DRIVING would be minuscule...

 

[curiouscarbon]

At what cost? Is this a $5,000 option? Roof rails would lose more to aerodynamics than the panels produce. And beauty is in the eye of the buyer with Tesla wanting to sell 100,000+ of these per month. Put the panels on your roof or in your yard, not on the vehicle.

you seem really passionate about controlling other people.

about 1000-2000usd in parts, and i don’t want to accuse you of trolling but i’m sure you’re aware that copper indium gallium selenide photovoltaic cells have dropped in cost lately. secondly i want to generously assume you’re not trolling and you are aware thin film photovoltaics exist, right?

?rude

 

[Supervstech]

At what cost? Is this a $5,000 option? Roof rails would lose more to aerodynamics than the panels produce. And beauty is in the eye of the buyer with Tesla wanting to sell 100,000+ of these per month. Put the panels on your roof or in your yard, not on the vehicle.

I’m with the previous post... nobody is suggesting mounting flat panels on the cars... they mean integrated to the paint coating... contoured to the car, not impacting the aerodynamics of the car at all... like you see on solar planes etc...

 

[time2roll]

nobody is suggesting mounting flat panels on the cars...

re read jwelter99 post #23 in reference to "roof rail mounts"

I do think the cost would be high to have the cells integrated to be stylish. Otherwise go for it. If it was as easy as a wrap I think we would already see some. Could become a successful business.

 

[curiouscarbon]

e.g. https://cnssth.en.alibaba.com/searc...413.dsrhbtn&groupId=806623987&SearchText=cigs

nobody is arguing that putting a solar panel on a car roof obviates the need for ground mounts. nobody.

nobody is arguing that putting a solar panel on a car roof means you never need to plug it in. nobody.

just gently thought it would be productive to state this.

 

[curiouscarbon]

How much solar do you think can be put on a vehicle? At 320 wh per mile, will this really make a difference?

I find that if rather obvious things like adding panels to cars has not happened, there’s good design reasons. The more I researched it, I understand why.

You could change my mind if you can show these panels will get more than 5 miles a day.

if that is your goalpost, then i personally have no interest in convincing you of anything

for people who see solar panel on car roof as a range extender, it’s quite optimistic.

tesla lose about 1% battery per day if left sitting.

if solar panel on roof made that parasitic loss 0% per day, that’s a clear value that is worth it to me.

maybe that opens me up to trolls hating on solar cars, but that’s everyone’s freedom to hate on odd projects and act superior.

even if a vehicle gained 0.5% battery per day, that’s worth it to me.

if it’s not worth it for you, don’t do it! i implore you!

 

[jwelter99]

Ha I just wandered into this discussion and it was already along the path of mounting panels to the roof. All I said is it can be made safe if one willing to do the proper install; but also pointed out it was questionable if it made sense.

I know Tesla used to have an option for a solar roof on the Model S that was built in. Not sure if it's still and option and how well it worked out.

Perhaps a cigs like panel setup would work as stick on and would not screw up aerodynamics so much.

I do know someone makes a flexible panel for the hood of certain model Jeeps and other off road vehicles to harvest a bit of power to keep a small fridge cold when engine not running.

If we ever see drastically higher panel efficiency I would expect panels would become much more prevalent on EV's. I think EV's would become much more accepted by the general public if while you were parked during work hours, without a EV plug in, that you were recouping your morning commute.

 

[Ampster]

I know Tesla used to have an option for a solar roof on the Model S that was built in. Not sure if it's still and option and how well it worked out.

I don't recall that on the Model S. I do recall the Prius had a panel that ran a fan to evacuate hot air.
As to the original question about the grid, the duck curve in California suggests it might be less expensive to charge from the grid during the day.

 

[Ampster]

NIMBY’s will block new transmission lines as fiercely as they do pipelines

But if those NIMBYs put solar on their roofs generation will be more distributed and new transmission lines won't be needed.

 

[Hedges]

The basic problem with adding PV panels to a Tesla is relatively low power density. With one standard sun providing 1000W/m^2 and typical PV panels around 20% efficient, the vehicle would receive a peak of 200 W/m^2 and over the day about 1000 Wh/m^2 depending on shading.

Higher efficiency panels would be appropriate for limited area like this, with the highest so far for non-concentrator cells being multi-junction which have reached 39%. However, total additional range acquired per day would not be sufficient for most consumers, except for the "little old granny who only used it to drive to church on Sunday."

File:CellPVeff(rev210104).png - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The solution is obviously to direct energy of select wavelength which can be converted more efficiently, and with higher power density. Just as lithium traction batteries were cost-effective for vehicles before stationary applications, the same will be true for space based directed energy using microwaves or lasers. Power gathered by PV arrays in space can be transmitted to receivers on earth, using wavelengths that can pass through the atmosphere unattenuated. By coupling these space-based power stations with the 5-g satellites now in orbit (which use phased array antennas to focus their transmissions on receivers), a wireless "Power over Ethernet" system can be implemented to deliver power to these mobile platforms. At the power levels achievable, it will no longer be necessary to have 300 mile range batteries because the concept of "range anxiety" will no longer exist. In fact, smaller batteries such as in first generation Prius will be sufficient for acceleration and braking, with power for continued operation delivered as needed. PG&E, with its extensive experience providing power transmission through rural areas, is taking the lead in implementation.

Space-based solar power - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

5G From Space: 20,000 Satellites To Blanket The Earth

Technocrat Elon Musk will use SpaceX to launch 12,000 satellites alone. Although data has zero mass, land-based plus sky-based 5G will be teeming with constant rivers of data while blanketing humanity with questionable radiation.

www.technocracy.news

Over 1,500 California fires in the past 6 years — including the deadliest ever — were caused by one company: PG&E. Here's what it could have done but didn't.

Regular blackouts are PG&E's new strategy to avoid starting fires. A writer called it "the most detested, and detestable, corporation in California."

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Ampster]

The basic problem with adding PV panels to a Tesla is relatively low power density.

That is a good point that is relevant for almost any EV. The battery voltage is 400 volts. The losses in converting a solar array have not been discussed. Of course there is always the option of a 500 volt array but not an option I would choose to be surrounded by while driving my car on a sunny day.

 

[Woody]

Q. Can the electrical grid handle a boom in electric vehicles?​

A. No!​

Ok, that’s the short answer for vast existing power grids out across America. As for other countries, it’s probably the same. Seen any photos of the electrical power distribution in other lesser developed countries. Take a gander at a couple pictures I attached below.

Why isn’t America better off? Well part of the reason is because America is so large. Rural Electrification Act of 1936 eventually brought power to the rural areas of the country. The cities were not designed but evolved around power/utilities over the years. Think Europe and why do they call the bathroom a water closet? Because it used to be a closet that they ran a water/waste line into. Most cities were not planned to handle a heavy electrical power for residential areas. You’ll see heavy electrical gear in and around industrial areas but not homes typically. Modern residential areas plan on a house with a typical 200Amp service. Older homes were designed for only a 100Amp service. The power needs of these homes were with varying power usage over the 24hr day. Morning increase in demand (everyone getting ready for work, school, etc.) with a usage taper off to evening, ramp up (everyone is coming home, dinner, Netflix, ...), and finally a ramp down for the night. That was the simplistic residential power use model. The existing grid was designed for this. But now your changing this. Now homes are no longer just loads but could be power producers. That nightly power drop, not so fast, we want to charge up our car batteries! So California wants to ban fossil burning vehicles and go all electric around 2030-50. Good luck with that. Do you see Con Ed or Pacific Gas and Electric updating all of the grids/infrastructure to support this change? Not so much in existing areas. I’d suspect it’s the same for most of America. The only place I heard of to actually plan on a city built with providing power to support the new electrical power model and more, is a future city to be possible built in Nevada.

In Nevada desert, a technology firm aims to be a government

CARSON CITY, Nev. (AP) — In the Nevada desert, a cryptocurrency magnate hopes to turn dreams of a futuristic “smart city” into reality.

apnews.com

So those who have electrical vehicles, enjoy them while you can because the current electrical system can’t support electrical vehicles for all the masses. Or get ready to be Queued Up for one of those nice new charging station being built near something. And as for that 40+ minutes to wait while it’s charging, assuming a quick charger, maybe the government could put in peddle powered human generators next to these charging stations. Get fit and do your part to save the environment.

Lastly, unfortunately many electrical vehicle owners / promoters are all about the virtue signaling of saving the planet and refuse to acknowledge or even know how ungreen/dirty electric vehicles really are. Let’s start with the exhaust pipe. None on my electric car they will boast....yeah there is one it’s just not in your backyard but down at the power station. And we haven’t even touch the whole rare earth metal issue, making the parts to build the so called green items,... but that’s a discussion for another time.

 

[Ampster]

many electrical vehicle owners / promoters are all about the virtue signaling of saving the planet and refuse to acknowledge or even know how I ungreen/dirty electric vehicles really are.

That is a fairly inaccurate generalization. The economics is the main motivation for me. I belong to a number of forums and the economics seems to be compelling for many on those forums. The long term cost of operation is compelling.

I have seen some of those studies about how "ungreen" EVs are and have found them to be inaccurate. The financial backing for one such popular video came from pipeline owner. It all depends on where you are standing.

 

[curiouscarbon]

That is a good point that is relevant for almost any EV. The battery voltage is 400 volts. The losses in converting a solar array have not been discussed. Of course there is always the option of a 500 volt array but not an option I would choose to be surrounded by while driving my car on a sunny day.

HV pack charges 12V accessory battery.

Use solar to charge the accessory battery.

HV pack now is drained less.

Range returned.

Actually charging the HV pack from solar? I plan on using an inverter drawing from a solar charged 24V pack. Those cars can charge as low as 1500W rate.

People keep comparing car solar to charging stations, and that’s really cool and I agree that it’s really appealing… but let’s be real… you’re not going to get a whole ton of miles in one day.. and that’s ok!

Normal combustion cars drain their accessory battery and people install small solar panels to service those, but I don’t see trolls dogpiling them chastising them for wasting money irresponsibly ? kinda seems like a double standard whataboutism.

Someone angry that I’m using solar on a car? They’re an oil industry plant!! LOL??Just embrace the application and move on. No need to act like a gatekeeper or bridge goblin.

This entire forum is about solar power, it’s one thing to give financial advice and say “finite money is best spent on a stationary array”, it’s another to actively tell people to not use solar because it upsets them.

 

[Woody]

Put a solar panel on my car and I can drive forever!

... oh the wet dream of the VW hippies of the 60s! This notion just keeps being recycled over and over just like the perpetual motion machines. I’ve heard it said so many times from so many virtuous greenies. My God what happened to our schools? Ok to be civil about this, do some basic math. There isn’t enough surface area on a vehicle to generate enough power.

Sure I wish a car with a solar roof/truck would allow me to buzz into town, go to work,... but just like the Jetson’s flying car, it ain’t real! Sure people play with the notion (see the photos below) but the solar panels of today are not capable of generating the required power needed to move the mass of the car, occupants, gear, etc. for any viable/practical use. Top off / station keeping of the batteries, run a cooling fan, security system, ... sure it works for small loads but drive a few miles around only using the power from the panels, well even a tortious will beat you in a long run. Again look at how much power can be produced verse power to be consumed. You’ll be better off just walking!