diy solar

diy solar

I need a standalone BMS that tracks current uptake to the LiPo4 cells

>I think we have different ideas of what a BMS is/does.
Well im not intending to use a BMS as it is intended - hence this thread :/
I need a "device" to monitor charging and disconnect ALL CHARGING devices once current uptake falls below the set threshold
I called this device a BMS because I dont know what else to call it

This wont do that
Can you code?
What about your hardware chops?
I don't know of any off the shelf product that does what you want.
 
need a "device" to monitor charging and disconnect ALL CHARGING devices once current uptake falls below the set threshold
I called this device a BMS because I dont know what else to call it
Try "current activated relay" or "current sensing relay". Years ago I purchase something that would activate a relay on current or voltage. It was expensive and i see there are much less expensive options on Amazon and EBay.
 
yes, if i must.
The
Its hard to believe such a simple device is not available
You need to measure current, a hall sensor can do that.
You need to open and close a circuit possibly with significant current flow, a contactor can do that.
You need some logic to integrate the 2 functions.
 
Open the drop-in batteries, rip out the dumb BMS and put in a smart BMS.
Good thought but controlling the charger tail current would probably be less expensive. A smart BMS would have to be able to communicate with the charger and that probably means a new charger. Any charger with that capability could probably be set to terminate at a specific tail current.
 
>Where did you hear this?
The link I posted at top :/
Well, that's like a 40 page article that I remember reading years ago. I'm not interested enough to read the whole thing again. Can you point out where it says "because holding LiPo4 cells above their resting voltage will continue to charge them and after a few hours, their life is cut in half"? I don't know how much experience you have, but I'm telling you I am 99.9% certain that is not true.

Edit to add: Also, you said "Float is a myth". I'm not certain what you mean. "Float" is a word. Float does mean something different for lead-acid batteries, but most people with LiFePO4 batteries use a float voltage to power loads when there is sun. What about it is mythical to you?
 
Its hard to believe such a simple device is not available
Did you try Googling "current sensing relay" or "current activated relay" You might have to add programmable or adjustable to the search criteria to drill down to one that can do more than just sense the presence of current current and program an Amp set point..
That would be the simplest way to control your charger.
 
Last edited:
Open the drop-in batteries, rip out the dumb BMS and put in a smart BMS.
I love that idea but....no
Did you try Googling "current sensing relay" or "current activated relay" You might have to add programmable or adjustable to the search criteria to drill down to one that can do more than just sense the presence of current current and program an Amp set point..
That would be the simplest way to control your charger.
Did not. Its got to have a mixroprocessor and memory to understand what the recent current history is. A moving average of current uptake can then be calculated.
Once tripped. It will then not reset until battery SOC falls below a set threshold

Good thought but controlling the charger tail current would probably be less expensive. A smart BMS would have to be able to communicate with the charger and that probably means a new charger. Any charger with that capability could probably be set to terminate at a specific tail current.
Agreed. Hence this thread
Well, that's like a 40 page article that I remember reading years ago. I'm not interested enough to read the whole thing again. Can you point out where it says "because holding LiPo4 cells above their resting voltage will continue to charge them and after a few hours, their life is cut in half"? I don't know how much experience you have, but I'm telling you I am 99.9% certain that is not true.

Edit to add: Also, you said "Float is a myth". I'm not certain what you mean. "Float" is a word. Float does mean something different for lead-acid batteries, but most people with LiFePO4 batteries use a float voltage to power loads when there is sun. What about it is mythical to you?
Ignoring the obvious hostility... Ehem... This thread does assume familiarity w the case studies in that article, verified by others with substantial lipo4 experience.

Float is a word that lipo inherited from LA. As explained in that article, once current uptake falls below x% of bank capacity. Charging is DONE!

ONCE IN WHILE (weekly perhaps) cell balancing may be necessary. But that can be accomplished at almost any voltage above resting voltage. Holding lipo for hours @ 14.4v will significantly reduce their life. Manfr do not emphasize tis for obvious reasons. (Also discussed in that article)

The device i have in mind will trip a relay that cuts out the lipo when CURRENT FALLS TO a nominal amount.
So.
- large current will not be switched
- the paralell LA. WILL REMAIN CONNECTED to any and all charging devices, so no upsets for them
 
The device i have in mind will trip a relay that cuts out the lipo when CURRENT FALLS TO a nominal amount
The concept exists and happens every day in the charge algorithm of my inverter. I set the tail current point where Constant Voltage stops. I can also set a timer so I have options to make sure the cells do not stay at the CV setting voltage for a long time. The timer is important in my case because I have loads and if they exceed the tail current during the CV stage, the charger could remain at the CV voltage for a long time, which is what you want to avoid. The device I mentioned earlier does not sound like it will fit your needs and the suggestion for an Arduino or other way to cut off charging is your best bet. Obviously if you want to invest in a modern hybrid inverter or a programmable charger the capability is there as well.It is not a new concept. An interim solution might be just a simple timer until you find or build the device.
NOTE: Rereading this thread I realize you are on a boat with three charging sources so a new hybrid inverter with programming is not an option.
 
Last edited:
After I slept on this and further thought about this it occured to me that there may be a simpler solution. I know you are focused on current but your concern and hence your goal is to reduce the time spent at higher voltage. I also do not know how big your pack is and how much of that capacity you need to use when one of those charging sources is not running.
How could you use voltage settings to accomplish your goal?
For example, in the case of shore power can you just use a voltage cutoff slightly above resting voltage? If your shore power charger is not adjustable there are devices that can activate a relay based on voltage. They also have programmable dead bands so that there is no frequent cycling.
Is this a concept that could work to accomplish your goal?. The great thing about Lithium, unlike FLA is that they are insensitive to the time spent in Absorb (constant voltage). You might not get all the capacity out of your cells but that also has benefits to longevity.
 
Float is a word that lipo inherited from LA. As explained in that article, once current uptake falls below x% of bank capacity. Charging is DONE!
Float is just a low Amperage Constant Voltage stage. The setting can be just above the voltage that Lithium cells settle at. As pointed out by @Horsefly it is used in Lithium environments to power loads, often from the sun so that when the sun goes down the battery is not discharged during the afternoon. That is exactly what I do and my cells settle at about 3.3 volts and do not lose much capacity during the afternoons. If your solar charge controller can accommodate this you could do that with your charge controller and accomplish your goal with that setting when on solar. Again, it is using voltage to accomplish your goal of not keeping your pack at a high voltage for a long period of time. With the right setting charging will be DONE but the loads will be served and the battery will not be discharged.
 
Last edited:
Its got to have a mixroprocessor and memory to understand what the recent current history is. A moving average of current uptake can then be calculated.
Once tripped. It will then not reset until battery SOC falls below a set threshold
With all respect, it seems like you wrote the spec for a single solution before defining your goal. Do we agree that your goal is to find some charge settings for each of your charging options so that you can optimize your battery pack life? If so then there are a lot more options to accomplish your goal and they do not have to reduce the useable capacity of your pack.
 
Last edited:
With all respect, it seems like you wrote the spec for a single solution before defining your goal. Do we agree that your goal is to find some charge settings for each of your charging options so that you can optimize your battery pack life? If so then there are a lot more options to accomplish your goal and they do not have to reduce the useable capacity of your pack.
Er no. Definitely not )
I am not even going to waster one minute trying to get three different charging options to play nice.

After I slept on this and further thought about this it occured to me that there may be a simpler solution. I know you are focused on current but your concern and hence your goal is to reduce the time spent at higher voltage. I also do not know how big your pack is and how much of that capacity you need to use when one of those charging sources is not running.
How could you use voltage settings to accomplish your goal?

no no no no
voltage alone is poor predictor of almost everything
I need charging history, based on current uptake

Float is just a low Amperage Constant Voltage stage. The setting can be just above the voltage that Lithium cells settle at. As pointed out by @Horsefly it is used in Lithium environments to power loads, often from the sun so that when the sun goes down the battery is not discharged during the afternoon. That is exactly what I do and my cells settle at about 3.3 volts and do not lose much capacity during the afternoons. If your solar charge controller can accommodate this you could do that with your charge controller and accomplish your goal with that setting when on solar. Again, it is using voltage to accomplish your goal of not keeping your pack at a high voltage for a long period of time. With the right setting charging will be DONE but the loads will be served and the battery will not be discharged.
>Float is just a low Amperage Constant Voltage stage.
THIS IS DEADLY TO LiPo4 cells as the link in the first post explains in great detail.
ANY voltage above resting voltage will over charge the pack. Thats what most seem tyo fail to grasp about this technology (including me until recently)

> If your solar charge controller can accommodate this you could do that with your charge controller a
This is an entirely different discussion. In this thread I am concerned with what goes into the lipo pack ONLY

I have 600ah capaity which is more than enough to to run everything for a few days, so I dont need to keep batteries topped up all day. Once charged. Thats it. No more charging until they fall to say 50-70%.
 
Er no. Definitely not )
I am not even going to waster one minute trying to get three different charging options to play nice.
We all get to choose how we spend our time. My comments are not intended to change your mind. They are for the benefit of other readers who may find themselves in a similar situation and choose to spend their time making a few voltage adjustments to their different charging options to create a charging strategy that optimizes Lithium pack life.
With a 600 Amphour battery capacity and a safe charging level of 0.5C it is safe to say that the battery could take 300 Amps of charging from multiple sources without causing harm. If one wanted to be conservative 200 Amps would be 0.33C So the first risk management step would be to add up the capacity of the three sources to see if they could exceed 200 Amps. If they do not exceed 200 Amps, then physics will take care of the concern about the charging options playing nice with each other.

Now for the the issue that I see is important is how to terminate charging. I assume each of those options has a programmable setting but if not, there are simple voltage activated relays that can terminate charging at programmable voltages. Now, for the benefit of other readers, the charge curve of every Lithium chemistry has one important point known as the knee of the curve where the voltage increases under constant current charging. That typically is an SOC of approximately 90-95 percent SOC and is a perfectly good voltage at which to terminate voltage. The good thing about Lithium chemistries is that unlike FLA they do not need to be fully charged to optimize their service life. Until you find the perfect current based solution what settings are you now using for voltage to terminate charging?

voltage alone is poor predictor of almost everything
I need charging history, based on current uptake
I agree that voltage alone is a poor predictor of SOC except at the upper knees of the charge curve when it is a reasonable indicator that the cells are approaching 100 per cent SOC or full. The cells do not have a memory of what happened to them so charging history is of no use to the cells. If a reader feels they need history then they can spend the time on devices to get them that history.
THIS IS DEADLY TO LiPo4 cells as the link in the first post explains in great detail.
ANY voltage above resting voltage will over charge the pack. Thats what most seem tyo fail to grasp about this technology (including me until recently)
Yes, I said that Float is just a low Amperage Constant Voltage stage. I agree it can be deadly to Lithium at high voltages typically of most FLA chargers. The author agreed. However a Constant Voltage at or around the settling voltage is not harmful to LFP, especially at low current. Even the author of the article you referenced said the key to long life for LFP is that, ".....they are never floated, never over-absorbed, never held at a high SOC for long periods," In fact that supports my notion that an absorb (Constant Voltage) stage at the end of the Bulk (Constant Current) stage is not even necessary. And that is why a simple termination of charging at a conservative voltage works for me. I still give my pack a low amperage CV stage (I prefer that term to Float or Absorb. At that stage in my daily cycle the loads discharging the pack often exceed that low amperage charge and it never exceeds a few hours.
I have 600ah capaity which is more than enough to to run everything for a few days, so I dont need to keep batteries topped up all day. Once charged. Thats it. No more charging until they fall to say 50-70%.
That is a very good strategy. I have been using LFP batteries since I first converted a bicycle to electric in 2010, I did an EV conversion in 2012 using the same Winston cells that the author of the article used. I have since moved through three stationary storage hyvrid inverter systems for my homes and probably cycled batteries thousands of times. I have made mistakes of over charging and over discharging as I stated above my only purpose is not to argue with you but to provide meaningful information to other readers.
 
Last edited:
Well, that's like a 40 page article that I remember reading years ago. I'm not interested enough to read the whole thing again. Can you point out where it says "because holding LiPo4 cells above their resting voltage will continue to charge them and after a few hours, their life is cut in half"?
I had also read that article years ago and it was a good summary of some of the basics.
I did reread the parts of it again but did not find that statement either. I did find this quote I thought summarized my philosophy fairly well. The author said for long life that,
".....they are never floated, never over-absorbed, never held at a high SOC for long periods,"

The author did not define long "over-absorb" or "long periods" but in another part of the article he talked about some LFPs being held at 3.4 volts for a year with no apparent decline in capacity. As I explained in my response above, I have been messing around with LFPs for a long time and I use the following settings to optimize the life of my cells. I charge to 3.45 per cell and I limit the time after Bulk (contant current) to two hours. That period is generally in the afternoons and my loads come close to that curent at that time of the day.
An unfortunate fact I discovered when rereading the article is that the author had a stroke in 2021 and may not be able to keep the website current.
 
Last edited:
No need to have a complex system. For a 12 volt system charge to 14.0 volts and stop bulk charging with no absorption time.
Have a low float voltage, say 13.35 volts, and a restart bulk trigger voltage of 13.25 volts.
Unless you are charging at very high currents these settings will charge to almost full capacity.

Mike
 
No need to have a complex system. For a 12 volt system charge to 14.0 volts and stop bulk charging with no absorption time.
Have a low float voltage, say 13.35 volts, and a restart bulk trigger voltage of 13.25 volts.
Unless you are charging at very high cmy /flourrents these settings will charge to almost full capacity.

Mike
Yes, 14.0 is 3.5 volts per cell. 13.35 Float is 3.34 per cell which is where my cells rest and my Float turns off when the sun goes down so it is not on for long,
 
Back
Top