Has anyone else realized how far we are away from running civilization fully on wind and solar?

[Ampster]

Problem with battery backup systems is the fact they are not sources but storage. Just like for an individual that wants to rely on batteries for power you must need to recharge them once depleted. A NG peaking plants adds generation capacity. A battery peaking plant only adds limited time continuity.

In California the peak is only a few hours and during the day there is so much solar that some of it gets curtailed. Peakers cannot compete with storage on price

In order for any battery system to be sustainable you can not draw more from it than you can recharge it. You must needs to generate the power from some means. The generation comes at a cost.

Lately I am seeing commercial solar farms include storage. That improves the economics because instead of risking curtailment they can shift that generation to charging batteries, and with storage they can negotiate more favorable purchase agreements because they can sell power after the sun goes down for short periods.

Batteries are nothing more than a leveling mechanism. If you are burning coal to charge those batteries then you will need more coal than just running normal loads.

Leveling demand is the whole point of Time of Use rates. Renewables have become less expensive than coal so economics has retired more coal plants. Batteries are not the problem. Demand is the problem and the price mechanisms of TOU rates do not seem to be accomplishing much. Perhaps programs like OhmConnect and others may offer some hope.

 

[labeeman]

Problem with battery backup systems is the fact they are not sources but storage. Just like for an individual that wants to rely on batteries for power you must need to recharge them once depleted. A NG peaking plants adds generation capacity. A battery peaking plant only adds limited time continuity.

In order for any battery system to be sustainable you can not draw more from it than you can recharge it. You must needs to generate the power from some means. The generation comes at a cost.

Batteries are nothing more than a leveling mechanism. If you are burning coal to charge those batteries then you will need more coal than just running normal loads.

ETA: The other problem with battery storage is you can only charge them up so much.

Or using sunlight and wind to charge the batteries so that you have power when they are not working I have a small system 7KW that I use to power my air conditioner and I am not harvesting all the solar it can generate as the batteries are charged up by 1 PM and are running the load until 5 PM.

 

[thatismytruck]

try moving any meaningful amount of goods without fossil fuel

Try electrified train network like rest of the civilized world outside of US

that would require massive infrastructure investment to get the power down those rails. not to mention, just about every rail system in the US has been neglected. agree it's a viable option, but again... no political will to invest in it.

in MI we just had the Palisades nuclear plant shutdown. that single plant generated more electricity than all the renewables in MI combined. what a joke. it has been running flawlessly since the 1970s. absolutely travesty of energy management.

Let's not forget that it takes massive amounts of electricity to run those wonderful trains. Where does that come from? unless there are nuclear plants, fossil fuels.

We cannot get off fossil fuels with wind and solar alone. We need nuclear power plants.

 

[Ampster]

Funny you should mention that

It was not funny for the Texans but the rest of the turbines that had been winterized in the rest of the world were laughing and the stupidity of ERCOT to not follow recommendations. There are also ways to remove moisture from natural gas to prevent gas lines from freezing.

 

[labeeman]

It was not funny for the Texans but the rest of the turbines that had been winterized in the rest of the world were laughing and the stupidity of ERCOT to not follow recommendations. There are also ways to remove moisture from natural gas to prevent gas lines from freezing.

It is almost impossible to dry gas below 10° dewpoint and cost prohibitive.

 

[Mattb4]

Or using sunlight and wind to charge the batteries so that you have power when they are not working I have a small system 7KW that I use to power my air conditioner and I am not harvesting all the solar it can generate as the batteries are charged up by 1 PM and are running the load until 5 PM.

Using sunlight or wind does not mean that sunlight power generation or wind power generation is free. In your system you had to spend a great deal of money to setup so that you could charge up sufficient batteries. And as you mention you do charge them and than have extra that goes no where. ( I assume you are not selling to the grid).

What is about batteries that people ascribe magic to what they can do?

 

[Ampster]

It is almost impossible to dry gas below 10° dewpoint

That would have been a standard to start drying it to. Other parts of the country seem to dry it enough that they did not have the natural gas infrastructure freeze like Texas did. My understanding is that is gets dried for transport but someone in Texas made an assumption that since they were sitting on the source they did not need to dry it for transport.

 

[labeeman]

That would have been a start. Other parts of the country seem to dry it enough that they did not have the natural gas infrastructure freeze like Texas did.

Yep LA did not see that problem but most gas lines are run underground and will not see low temps except at the meter run. and if the power plant did not insulate the gas lines in the plant you will have problems our gas lines at the plant were above ground and insulated 10-inch high-pressure lines two of them

 

[Ampster]

Using sunlight or wind does not mean that sunlight power generation or wind power generation is free. In your system you had to spend a great deal of money to setup so that you could charge up sufficient batteries. And as you mention you do charge them and than have extra that goes no where. ( I assume you are not selling to the grid).

Solar and wind generation is more competitive than coal and at par or less expensive than natural gas generation. In a free market like Texas, that is why there is so much commericial wind generation.

What is about batteries that people ascribe magic to what they can do?

Not magic, however the economics can be compelling. In a high rate environment like mine they make economic sense to allow me to store solar energy so I do not have to pay $0.55 per kWh during peak times. I estimate that the amortized cost of my solar means that the energy that the system produces, will cost me $0.08-10 per kWh. The cost of my battery storage adds another $0.20 per kWh. In my rate environment those are the economics.

 

[labeeman]

Using sunlight or wind does not mean that sunlight power generation or wind power generation is free. In your system you had to spend a great deal of money to setup so that you could charge up sufficient batteries. And as you mention you do charge them and than have extra that goes no where. ( I assume you are not selling to the grid).

What is about batteries that people ascribe magic to what they can do?

Nope, I am not selling to the grid I also would like power when the grid goes down and batteries are the best way to go for that as other means of power storage are too costly. I am in Hurrican territory and could lose power for weeks. I just hope my panels survive. If I did sell to the power company I could only get what they call the fuel adjustment charge of .012 per kWh not enough to pay for the extra equipment in ten years.

 

[Risky Rob]

It takes tens of thousands of dollars to keep a large plant in your state of readiness and still several hours to ramp to full power only a gas turbine can ramp up fast and they are only a drop in the bucket to the power needs of a grid and the main problem is the grid is not able to handle the peaks that have been happening YOU need to do more research.

I read the California Independent System Operators report every day, you're one of those people with pre-conceived notions, who HATES it when the facts prove them wrong.

 

[Dauntless]

We need to go back to nature. Everyone just needs to go to sleep as the sun sets; wake up when it rises and all will be perfect.

 

[Mattb4]

Solar and wind generation is more competitive than coal and at par or less expensive than natural gas generation. In a free market like Texas, that is why there is so much commericial wind generation.

Not magic, however the economics can be compelling. In a high rate environment like mine they make economic sense to allow me to store solar energy so I do not have to pay $0.55 per kWh during peak times. I estimate that the amortized cost of my solar means that the energy that the system produces, will cost me $0.08-10 per kWh. The cost of my battery storage adds another $0.20 per kWh. In my rate environment those are the economics.

But your rate environment is not the utility rates environment. Frequently they buy at less than a cent for kwh. I am reminded of the folks that setup to run their cars on old deep fat fryer oil. They were enthusiastic because the restaurants gave it away free (back then). So their cost was really low and they touted this as a environmental win.

The home solar industry would be considerably smaller if the utilities were not forced to allow grid tie. Or if they only paid wholesale prices for grid tie. As it is Utilities are made to subsudise the costs which is passed on to all users.

 

[Mattb4]

Nope, I am not selling to the grid I also would like power when the grid goes down and batteries are the best way to go for that as other means of power storage are too costly. I am in Hurrican territory and could lose power for weeks. I just hope my panels survive. If I did sell to the power company I could only get what they call the fuel adjustment charge of .012 per kWh not enough to pay for the extra equipment in ten years.

Thanks, that is a honest assessment. I have nothing against batteries so long as people keep in mind that they are a finite storage mechanism and not generation. Heck the poor people out West are finding out what finite water storage is. When not enough water flows into Lake Mead it goes dry as the rate of using it stays the same. Water battery at work.

 

[timselectric]

TINA: There Is No Alternative. It's just that simple. The gov't has been asking nicely since Jimmy Carter to pretty please use alternative energy sources. We're running out of oil and the Earth is warming on a trajectory that will not sustain human life for our grandkids.

Yet everybody is addicted to this cheap energy in the form of fossil fuels. And the remainder of those energy sources are harder and harder to drill for without causing environmental catastrophes (fracking) or risking our entire national security by begging autocratic dictators to give us cheap energy (Europe vs. Putin).

Getting off any addiction is a messy process. We're in that messy process now. It sucks, but that's the price you pay for sustaining an entire economy when we've known this day was coming for the past 50 years.

1. The government is just trying to look like they want to switch to alternative energy sources. If they really wanted to do it, it would already be done.
2. As far as global warming. This planet has been both, covered in molten lava and ice before.
We didn't have anything to do with it, then. And we don't have anything to do with it, now.
We like to think that we control the universe. But, we're just along for the ride.
One volcano eruption does more damage to the ozone layer, than we can in 10 years.
3. Who is Tina? lol

 

[labeeman]

I read the California Independent System Operators report every day, you're one of those people with pre-conceived notions, who HATES it when the facts prove them wrong.

My pre-conceived notion is derived from the experience not reading thank you.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

We need to go back to nature. Everyone just needs to go to sleep as the sun sets; wake up when it rises and all will be perfect.

I'll sleep all winter long and won't get sleep in summer.

 

[Risky Rob]

My pre-conceived notion is derived from the experience not reading thank you.

Do a search for "strategic reliability reserve", it's operating right now, and will soon will be expanded. Natural gas and diesel fired powered generators on standby.

 

[Ampster]

Do a search for "strategic reliability reserve", it's operating right now, and will soon will be expanded.

It is a good read,

California governor floats 5-GW, $5.2B 'reliability reserve' amid possible electricity shortfalls

“We also need to be mindful [that] we need to accelerate projects, particularly because we have been changing our modeling and we are now recognizing some new factors and challenges,” Newsom said Friday.

www.utilitydive.com

 

[labeeman]

Do a search for "strategic reliability reserve", it's operating right now, and will soon will be expanded. Natural gas and diesel fired powered generators on standbyI worked on gas and oil-fired unit and know firsthand what it takes to run one for 10 years 50MVA + 90 MVA and a 200 MVA unit.

Do a search for "strategic reliability reserve", it's operating right now, and will soon will be expanded. Natural gas and diesel fired powered generators on standby.

I worked on gas and oil-fired units and know firsthand what it takes to run one for 10 years 50MVA + 90 MVA and a 200 MVA unit.