Who is actually manufacturing this inverter?

[justinm001]

I appreciate that Sol-Ark has a teammate like you, @jrcromer , who promote and endorse the company they serve. I actually have been too busy to respond directly to some of public comments from Sol-Ark regarding Luxpower. Here now I would like to briefly address this particular statement:

The phrase "you get what you pay for" shouldn't come from a specific manufacturer; it should be left to the judgment of the consumers.

We and Deye (your manufacturing partner) started developing this US version inverter around the same time.
In 2018, our AIO hybrid inverter was already being used in markets like South Africa. However, due to certain unfair exclusive agency agreement issues, we couldn't enter the market for the US standard machines as originally planned in 2019.
Our founders team has over 10 years of inverter experience. Our founder, Jin Wang, was the 2nd co-founder of Growatt in 2010, and since then, Growatt has sold hundreds of thousands of various solar inverters, including hybrid inverters, every year.

Personally, I purchased and tested Voltronic's Infini-Solar 3k, Solax's 5kW, and GoodWe bi-directional inverters 13 years ago. At that time, these models were also referred to as hybrid inverters, but it was still the era of lead-acid batteries, and the cost of batteries was not affordable for ordinary users to have such an energy storage system. Additionally, regulators in various countries did not emphasize the development of Distributed Energy Storage networks. Regardless, we never claim to be the inventors of hybrid inverters; we have always strived to manufacture hybrid inverters that better meet the expectations of today's users and comply with different regional regulatory standards.
Surely I believe Sol-Ark has made tons of efforts to make their products more excellent for the American customers. Not just the product itself, Sol-Ark has built an excellent customers /installers service network.

Did Luxpower copy Sol-Ark inverters? It is easy to have such a misconception, and I don't blame you for thinking so as you can find a lot of same features between these 2 brands. Before the release of the new version, we did benefit from many suggestions, including those from the EG4 team, which mentioned comparisons with other inverter brands. For example, someone asked, "Can you have a wiring space as large as Sol-Ark's?" We couldn't meet all the suggestions in practice, but we knew that all our improvements had to be based on two fundamental principles: 1) not breaking the law or infringing on any protected patents, and 2) putting user needs at the center.

Another significant reason why similar products with similar functions may appear alike is the local electrical codes and standards. For example, the external placement of the RSD button and the requirement to use components from the standardized list.

Furthermore, concerning third-party lifespan testing, I admit that we have not conducted as many tests in this area compared to Sol-Ark. However, that doesn't mean our quality is inferior. A company's assurance of product quality, such as a limited 10-year warranty, is not just an advertisement; it is a commitment of responsibility that has been tested and accepted by the market. Clearly, if a company fails to deliver on such a promise, it would be digging its own grave and pushing the company off a cliff.

Anyway, in the end, I want to say that the benefit of a free market is that it encourages competition, leading to better products with better prices for consumers. We are open to this and have a forward-looking approach. Beyond our two companies, there are more and more inverter brands joining this competition, which drives rapid industrial development. Everyone's efforts will contribute to achieving "Energy Independence" to the maximum extent possible in our world. Keep going; all our efforts are changing this world, making it better and more sustainable.
Thank you all!

Such a great response

 

[jrcromer]

As many words as you want, but Sol-Ark pioneered the large format hybrid inverter with an integrated 200A grid passthrough and disconnect switch. No other inverter had that on the market before Sol-Ark. Similarly, nobody had an 8kW hybrid inverter with an integrated breaker box like Sol-Ark when we went to market with it 6 years ago. Literally these products didn't exist before Sol-Ark, and if USA customers want to reward innovation and discourage copycat culture, I advise them to consider that when selecting their inverter.

To be clear, in the above posts, both Signature Solar and Luxpower are trying to claim that "oh no, we didn't just rip off Sol-Ark, everybody is doing it and we drew our inspiration from everyone" and yet the Luxpower inverter is so similar to the Sol-Ark in feature set and form factor that many users on this forum assume Deye makes it! And then to suggest that isn't really what is going on, and that you just copied everybody up and down the block, and that there isn't anything special about Sol-Ark 15k when you come to market with a Sol-Ark 15k clone, it's just.... time for a cigarette break and to think about non-solar things for awhile. SMH.

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

James - Sol-Ark pioneered the integrated 200A grid disconnect and transfer. That's what I am talking about, specifically. Tesla, Goodwe, Growatt... they don't have that. Sol-Ark was first.

The 19kW vs 21kW is only in max PV nameplate capacity. The simple fact is you can get to 19kW on a Sol-Ark in a more flexible and less expensive manner. If you added another 2kW... you get 18kW of DC output (yet to see it though). But AC output is way more important than DC output. The batteries will fill up regardless, at which point it comes back to how much you can output AC (15kW vs. 12kW) as well as if you are running the battery inverter at the top of spec (275A vs 250A) to get that 12kW.

This is what frustrates me about the Luxpower marketing. It is claiming that a cheaper inverter is also better, when in fact, it is easy to tell it is a smaller inverter than Sol-Ark right on the data sheet.

Go with "cheaper than Sol-Ark" if you want. Maybe "more value engineered". But Sol-Ark is the more powerful inverter of the two. And really, if you are going to tout the 18kWDCpv spec... actually show the inverter doing it. I have yet to see that it.

Oh, I didn't see the tesla 200a gateway years before...

my pv thread covers your math problem

 

[Mattb4]

Interesting, I had not looked at Luxpower until this Thread brought it to my attention. I do like that they have a smaller KW model designed more for the off grid folks rather than the grid tie/hybrid users. Grid as backup is great. Grid parallel introduces problems. Don't know all of the specs from a quick perusal. Nor what their price is or who sells them. Do not care for some comments on the web site that seem to indicate they want to go the route of certified installers and internet connected stuff.

 

[jrcromer]

Oh, I didn't see the tesla 200a gateway years before...

The tesla gateway is not built into the inverter. You know that. Stop deflecting and say "yea, we think Sol-Ark is really onto something with their 200A integrated grid connection and we copied that feature because we believe they are correct".

It is so obvious that the Luxpower EG4 is a copy of a Sol-Ark 15k. You put smaller, cheaper components in a box, which has a 12kW nameplate rating, and then put 18k as the product name. And then are claiming equivalency or better. Don't diminish your copy - own what you took. The 200A integrated transfer switch is revolutionary. We know, because we came up with it. You have it now too. But the inverter itself is a smaller spec at a lower price - not equivalent spec at a lower price.

 

[cods4]

Sol-Ark pioneered the large format hybrid inverter with an integrated 200A grid passthrough and disconnect switch. No other inverter had that on the market before Sol-Ark. Similarly, nobody had an 8kW hybrid inverter with an integrated breaker box like Sol-Ark when we went to market with it 6 years ago. Literally these products didn't exist before Sol-Ark, and if USA customers want to reward innovation and discourage copycat culture, I advise them to consider that when selecting their inverter.

So these are your main innovations? These are just minor modifications to the Deye inverters to make them more US friendly.
Are you saying Sol-Ark didn't design the main features of your inverters? I.e
Power electronics circuitry to allow nameplate rated power (or higher) into the batteries, out of the batteries, into the grid or to UPS loads?
Ability to communicate with most BMS type batteries on the market
Ability to work with Lead acid batteries (including temperature compensation)

All you did was put a bigger relay/contactor in there and make the case bigger to allow for the bigger cables and protection (and your 200A contactor I guess)??
And obviously put your own HMI firmware on there to make it look different

 

[jrcromer]

my pv thread covers your math problem

Let's see, Sol-Ark full-sized MPPT... 9 panels x 6 circuits = 54 panels max
vs. Luxpower irregular-sized MPPT... = 10 panels x 4 circuits = 40 panels max

19kW / 54 = 350W which are good quality, abundant and affordable.
19kW / 40 = 475W which are good quality, unavailable, and expensive.

Only gets worse the higher efficiency the module selected... 550W 60 cell modules of the future are going to cost way more than 430W modules of the future

 

[cods4]

It is so obvious that the Luxpower EG4 is a copy of a Sol-Ark 15k. You put smaller, cheaper components in a box, which has a 12kW nameplate rating, and then put 18k as the product name. And then are claiming equivalency or better. Don't diminish your copy - own what you took. The 200A integrated transfer switch is revolutionary. We know, because we came up with it. You have it now too. But the inverter itself is a smaller spec at a lower price - not equivalent spec at a lower price.

Lol "came up with it"

"Hmm, many US households have >100A supplies, but Deye only puts in up to 50A grid relays in their inverters. Lets see if we can get a 200A relay in there for our customers."

Any competent engineer would think of that within the first few minutes of reviewing Deye's datasheets.

I think the rest of the process went something like this.

SA: "Deye, can you fit a 200A relay into your hybrid inverters for the US market?"
Deye: " Sorry there is not enough space for that, we would have to make the case bigger"
SA: "Ok thats fair enough, hey, lets make it a lot bigger and we can put an MCB/isolator in there too and give the installers a bit more room to work with".
Deye: "Ok we can do that, but it will add 15% to the cost of the inverter"
SA: "No problem, just promise us you wont sell the same inverters to anyone else, that way we can mark them up 300% which should more than compensate for the extra costs"

 

[jrcromer]

So these are your main innovations? These are just minor modifications to the Deye inverters to make them more US friendly.
Are you saying Sol-Ark didn't design the main features of your inverters? I.e
Power electronics circuitry to allow nameplate rated power (or higher) into the batteries, out of the batteries, into the grid or to UPS loads?
Ability to communicate with most BMS type batteries on the market
Ability to work with Lead acid batteries (including temperature compensation)

All you did was put a bigger relay/contactor in there and make the case bigger to allow for the bigger cables and protection (and your 200A contactor I guess)??
And obviously put your own HMI firmware on there to make it look different

Not at all. These are just the innovations that are staring the public in the face on the data sheet. Again, come tour Sol-Ark's building and meet our engineering and technical support team. I understand your cynicism, but Sol-Ark is exceptional.

Sol-Ark absolutely stands on the shoulders of the battery inverter industry dating back before Trace / Xantrax and before my time. In the grand scheme of things, nobody was talking about hybrid inverters in the USA before Sol-Ark. It was our user friendly feature set that moved the needle. It is not surprising to us that some of our battery partners would become envious of our inverter and copy its feature set (which is why we are having this discussion in the first place, so I wouldn't diminish that feature set). But what is surprising is that they are not giving us credit for the features they took.

Schneider deserves credit for battery BMS communication.
They credit Xantrax for its leadership in lead acid charging, via aquisition.
I don't know how deep the well runs for power electronics or circuitry and I love electrical history, so please enlighten me.

I do know Luxpower copied Sol-Arks 15kW feature set, that is readily apparent to anyone with eyes and Sol-Ark experience. Nobody else does the wiring boxes and 200A grid interconnection like we do. They didn't copy the MPPT... they have smaller MPPT. They didn't copy the battery charger... they have smaller battery charger. They don't have a higher AC nameplate capacity either. But the messaging is that it is "equivalent while cheaper" which isn't true. Smaller and cheaper. And obviously an homage to the 15k.

 

[jrcromer]

Lol "came up with it"
"Hmm, many US households have >100A supplies, but Deye only puts in up to 50A grid relays in their inverters. Lets see if we can get a 200A relay in there for our customers."

It saves having to install a Tesla gateway or enphase smartswitch, franklin agate etc. Go USA innovation! Sol-Ark had it first.

Deye: "Ok we can do that...it will add 15% to the cost of the inverter"
SA: "No problem, just promise us you wont sell the same inverters to anyone else, that way we can mark them up 300% which should more than compensate for the extra costs"

Why would Deye say yes to that? Not reality.

 

[kennyb]

People in glass houses...

Solark wouldn't be in the position they're in without "copying" the work of the establishment. The AIO market wouldn't exist if it weren't for those giants. Yet I don't see any representatives from any of those companies in here bitching and moaning only ever Solark.

You didn't invent the inverter, you didn't invent the grid pass through, you didn't invent the integrated disconnect. The list goes on and on. You're a derivative on pre-existing work and ideas.

So is luxpower. Quit the gatekeeping.

 

[rhino]

https://www.zoominfo.com/c/sol--ark-co/447426439

Sol-Ark Signs New Leases in Allen, Texas

Sol-Ark™ is moving their headquarters from Plano, TX to Allen, TX after signing a new lease with Allen Economic Development Corporation (AEDC). Read more.

www.sol-ark.com

Guess we'll find out shortly when they release their S-1 in the coming months

For future reference I just checked my previous company where I know the current employee count and zoominfo is off by nearly an entire magnitude. All these sites trying to claim they have detailed info about private companies are to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[cods4]

You can read the court cases online, where Sol-Ark protected their interests, that detail the relationship.

I found this (which I have only read bfiefly), but it seems to say that Sol-Ark sells "Deye's storage string inverter products and technology".

Portable Solar, LLC v. Lion Energy, LLC, 2:22-CV-00026-DAK | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Portable Solar, LLC v. Lion Energy, LLC, 2:22-CV-00026-DAK, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

This confirms my (and many other's thoughts) that Sol-Ark did not develop the technology in their inverters, and simply has an exclusive sales agreement to sell it in the US and Canada.
In addition to that we all know that Sol-Ark makes (or has Deye make) a number of modifications to their inverters to make them more suitable to the US market.

It is laughable how bad Sol-Ark's PR department is, based on reading the comments by jcromer on this thread.

 

[Solar Guppy]

There are other previous Hybrid products that predate Deye and hence Sol-Ark, as a reseller, one that I actually tracked down previous developers was the Solar City H6, which was designed and built by Delta ( Taiwan ) in the 2014-2016 time frame. Signature Solar bought at auction I believe most of the inventory of the H6 as Tesla bought Solar City and the product was redundant to the Tesla power wall ( Musk's brother was building a product that competing to the powerwall, yet used the Gen 1 powerwall battery ).

I bought one in 2020 for ~$400 from Signature Solar off eBay and tracked down some of the developers in my desire to get the gateway access so to get it working.

The H6 was a tier one build quality, and really a shame they were sold off for scrap value, but anyone that claims Deye or its resellers came up with the market are just wrong. Solis as well has had ( and still has ) hybrid inverters for regions outside the US the predate Sol-Ark even being in existence ( RHI-(3-6)K-48ES-5G ) can be found with 2017 dates on the internet.

 

[JacksonSolar]

I don’t see anyone from Tesla on here crying about LG 8, Franklin WH, EP Cube, or Enphase. They all have a gateway.

 

[cods4]

There are other previous Hybrid products that predate Deye and hence Sol-Ark, as a reseller, one that I actually tracked down previous developers was the Solar City H6, which was designed and built by Delta ( Taiwan ) in the 2014-2016 time frame. Signature Solar bought at auction I believe most of the inventory of the H6 as Tesla bought Solar City and the product was redundant to the Tesla power wall ( Musk's brother was building a product that competing to the powerwall, yet used the Gen 1 powerwall battery ).

I bought one in 2020 for ~$400 from Signature Solar off eBay and tracked down some of the developers in my desire to get the gateway access so to get it working.

The H6 was a tier one build quality, and really a shame they were sold off for scrap value, but anyone that claims Deye or its resellers came up with the market are just wrong. Solis as well has had ( and still has ) hybrid inverters for regions outside the US the predate Sol-Ark even being in existence ( RHI-(3-6)K-48ES-5G ) can be found with 2017 dates on the internet.

I dont think anyone (except perhaps jcromer) thinks that Sol-Ark or Deye designed the first hybrid inverter, however, to develop any hybrid inverter from scratch (even now that there are so many on the market) would be a huge job and require a huge amount of design work by very competent/experienced engineers. (unless you are literally reverse engineering an existing inverter to copy and make minor changes, and even then there's still a lot to it).

I don't think trying to copy a spec sheet and designing an inverter to meet the same or very similar specs of a competing inverter should be considered as plaigerism or copying. Deciding on specs is a small (but important) part of the design process.

If someone disassembled a Luxpower inverter and Sol-Ark/Deye inverter side by side and found the layout and specs of components were exactly the same across large parts of the inverter, then I think that jcromer might have a point.

 

[timselectric]

I really wish everyone would stop arguing with this mouthpiece. If you all just ignore him, he will eventually disappear.

 

[SilverbackMP]

I really wish everyone would stop arguing with this mouthpiece. If you all just ignore him, he will eventually disappear.

Which ones? I see five or six of them and only three or so are open about it.

 

[timselectric]

Which ones? I see five or six of them and only three or so are open about it.

The one who has drawn the others into this train wreck of a thread. The one who seems to think that if he keeps repeating the same thing. Eventually people will start believing him.

 

[cods4]

The one who has drawn the others into this train wreck of a thread. The one who seems to think that if he keeps repeating the same thing. Eventually people will start believing him.

I wish we could just convince Sol-Ark to be open about all this stuff. I.e give us the whole truth

I.e we employ X engineers, X sales people, X support people
We have design input on these aspects of the inverters....
The inverters are entirely manufactured in China and tested (and/or modified) here in Texas...
We provide all these great resources to our installers and customers
Our online monitoring system is entirely designed by us and hosted in the US.

Instead we get stuff like this where they are trying to attack their competitors.

I do know Luxpower copied Sol-Arks 15kW feature set, that is readily apparent to anyone with eyes and Sol-Ark experience. Nobody else does the wiring boxes and 200A grid interconnection like we do. They didn't copy the MPPT... they have smaller MPPT. They didn't copy the battery charger... they have smaller battery charger. They don't have a higher AC nameplate capacity either. But the messaging is that it is "equivalent while cheaper" which isn't true. Smaller and cheaper. And obviously an homage to the 15k.

It is so obvious that the Luxpower EG4 is a copy of a Sol-Ark 15k. You put smaller, cheaper components in a box, which has a 12kW nameplate rating, and then put 18k as the product name. And then are claiming equivalency or better. Don't diminish your copy - own what you took. The 200A integrated transfer switch is revolutionary. We know, because we came up with it. You have it now too. But the inverter itself is a smaller spec at a lower price - not equivalent spec at a lower price.