Sodium ion batteries vs LiFePO4

[gotbeans]

Anyone going to test them out? there are tons of them for sale now https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805660878062.html
The price is between other lifepo4 batteries (there's quite a range on them)

can charge stuff at way lower temperatures too, which is a huge plus for many people

 

[OffGridForGood]

I have a quote on Alibaba,
12v 100Ah Sodium Battery with bt 100A charge/discharge rate $230 USD
24v 100Ah Sodium Battey with bt 150A charge/discharge rate $365 USD
Shipping DDP to rural Canada for two batteries $260USD

I have a use-case for the 24v in a place where heating the batteries all winter would SUCK even battery warmer in an insulated box may run into issues during cloudy/overcast skys in our long winter. The Sodium battery looks interesting to me to solve this type of problem, I am tempted to get the two batteries and play with them on the bench using my two small inverters (MPP 1012 and 2724) to see what these can actually do, and what the loss of capacity actually is in practice if I limit the voltages to somthing like 2.8 to 3.8v per cell.
Someone posted a question about compression - these are cylinder cells, 33mm x 140mm (1.25"x5.5") so no compression.

 

[gotbeans]

@OffGridForGood is aliexpress not cheaper for you so you don't have to deal with shipping & customs?

 

[OffGridForGood]

@OffGridForGood is aliexpress not cheaper for you so you don't have to deal with shipping & customs?

I typically use Aliexpress for low cost (low risk) items.
Alibaba is better for larger cost items, more protection if anything goes sideways.
All that said, these are not high cost items, maybe it would be cheaper via Aliexpress, now I feel like I have to go look!

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Anyone going to test them out?

I've got a few coming to my lab soon-ish. I'll test them when I find time.

 

[OffGridForGood]

The cost doesn't seem to be less on Aliexpress, but now I see Individual Sodium Cells available...humm

 

[gotbeans]

I typically use Aliexpress for low cost (low risk) items.
Alibaba is better for larger cost items, more protection if anything goes sideways.
All that said, these are not high cost items, maybe it would be cheaper via Aliexpress, now I feel like I have to go look!

oh for USA at least it's quite a bit cheaper for cells there than alibaba + shipping
and yea there are even "18650" type sodium cells available. Pretty cool to see my old li-ion packs are still going though so never even changed to lifepo4 lol.. I'll just wait..

I've got a few coming to my lab soon-ish. I'll test them when I find time.

nice good luck. Finland definitely a place that could use better cold-resistant batteries

 

[OffGridForGood]

oh for USA at least it's quite a bit cheaper for cells there than alibaba + shipping

i don't buy cells on aliexpress.

 

[OffGridForGood]

I am getting the one 12v and one 24v 100Ah battery.
I have some testing I am going to do on the bench, then out in the greenhouse (unheated for this winter) to see what they can, and what they can't do in winter. Excited to see what I find out.
I am expecting they will work at the low temps, but reduced capacity, and since my inverters will not like 1.5v per cell, I expect I will de-rate the battery total energy capacity to match the energy stored between 2.5 and 3.8 volt range.

 

[Sverige]

Although the we don't know the X-scale in used the image charge/discharge image, I'm assuming that it is linear. The corresponding voltage curves of a capacitor are logarithmic, and there would be "a lot of weirdness" in in pulling power from parallel devices of the two types.

<snip>

If I may view the graph with a linear X-axis corresponding SOC percentage, a 4S battery pack of the soldium ion cells, however, would only offer 'nearly 220AH' of power storage if allowed discharge from more than 15.6 volts (at high SOC) all the way down to around 8.0 volts. The discharge curve would fall below my minimum of 2.8 volts when about 40% of the battery remains unused.

I would have thought almost certainly the X axis on the graph is linear and represents time during a constant current test. You’re right it’s unclear because it’s not stated, but this is standard for cell testing reports.

 

[Sverige]

I wonder if the low temperature capabilities of these new sodium cells and their potentially much lower costs compared to lithium might make them suited to replacing lead acid as car starter batteries? LiFePO4 never quite made it into that application, but are sodium cells going to be better suited or are the CCA cold cranking amps requirements just too high and lead acid will remain the best choice?

 

[gotbeans]

I wonder if the low temperature capabilities of these new sodium cells and their potentially much lower costs compared to lithium might make them suited to replacing lead acid as car starter batteries? LiFePO4 never quite made it into that application, but are sodium cells going to be better suited or are the CCA cold cranking amps requirements just too high and lead acid will remain the best choice?

Yea basically nothing on their CCA rating yet. There are batteries that also have capacitors in them so that takes the initial high amp hit...
I think the main contender is if the battery is cheaper though, I don't think people care about much else other than if it costs them less lol

 

[OffGridForGood]

I've got a few coming to my lab soon-ish. I'll test them when I find time.

What parameters are you most interested to test?

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

What parameters are you most interested to test?

Pretty much everything I can. Stress test, voltage curves, a couple of destructive tests (short circuit, etc.). We'll see what I have time for...

 

[OffGridForGood]

Pretty much everything I can. Stress test, voltage curves, a couple of destructive tests (short circuit, etc.). We'll see what I have time for...

Keep posting - very interested to see what you find.
Will you put it outside in minus 60-degrees C and show us what happens?!

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Will you put it outside in minus 60-degrees C and show us what happens?!

Naturally

 

[OffGridForGood]

I would like to see what these can do in my region, it would be awesome to have a battery "like" the LiFePO4 but operable down to -20C without needing heat! (and above 30C without needing A/C!) yeah, I am SO ready for this temperature range. Time to test it out and see what the limitations are for these Sodium batteries.
Imagine a remote cabin with batteries that don't need any special protection any time of the year.
If they work well, my next step will be some DIY Sodium batteries from purchased cells and BMS, and see how that works out.

 

[gotbeans]

the sodium ion 18650s are a few dollars, around 1300mAh so you can just multiply it by ~100 to get an idea what a 100ah would give
worth getting it to test that

 

[Rocksnsalt]

There seems to be some relatively serious investment going into sodium batteries.
At this point, it looks more feasible for large energy storage projects, though the 5000 cycle is considerably less than Lithium provides so it seems like there would have to be a very substantial cost offset.
Time will tell.

Sodium in Batteries: Shift May Herald Another Shakeup

Battery giants are starting to put their money on new sodium-based technology, a sign that there could be yet another shakeup in the industry that’s crucial for the energy transition.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Plenty of development here in Europe as well, for example:

Northvolt develops state-of-the-art sodium-ion battery

Northvolt is proud to add sodium-ion to its cell chemistry portfolio, enabling safe, low-cost, sustainable power for energy storage systems.

northvolt.com

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