OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
The cost doesn't seem to be less on Aliexpress, but now I see Individual Sodium Cells available...humm
Sodium ion batteries vs LiFePO4
- Thread starter Sverige
- Start date
oh for USA at least it's quite a bit cheaper for cells there than alibaba + shipping
and yea there are even "18650" type sodium cells available. Pretty cool to see my old li-ion packs are still going though so never even changed to lifepo4 lol.. I'll just wait..
nice good luck. Finland definitely a place that could use better cold-resistant batteries
OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
i don't buy cells on aliexpress.
OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
I am getting the one 12v and one 24v 100Ah battery.
I have some testing I am going to do on the bench, then out in the greenhouse (unheated for this winter) to see what they can, and what they can't do in winter. Excited to see what I find out.
I am expecting they will work at the low temps, but reduced capacity, and since my inverters will not like 1.5v per cell, I expect I will de-rate the battery total energy capacity to match the energy stored between 2.5 and 3.8 volt range.
I have some testing I am going to do on the bench, then out in the greenhouse (unheated for this winter) to see what they can, and what they can't do in winter. Excited to see what I find out.
I am expecting they will work at the low temps, but reduced capacity, and since my inverters will not like 1.5v per cell, I expect I will de-rate the battery total energy capacity to match the energy stored between 2.5 and 3.8 volt range.
Sverige
A Brit in Sweden
I would have thought almost certainly the X axis on the graph is linear and represents time during a constant current test. You’re right it’s unclear because it’s not stated, but this is standard for cell testing reports.
Sverige
A Brit in Sweden
I wonder if the low temperature capabilities of these new sodium cells and their potentially much lower costs compared to lithium might make them suited to replacing lead acid as car starter batteries? LiFePO4 never quite made it into that application, but are sodium cells going to be better suited or are the CCA cold cranking amps requirements just too high and lead acid will remain the best choice?
Yea basically nothing on their CCA rating yet. There are batteries that also have capacitors in them so that takes the initial high amp hit...
I think the main contender is if the battery is cheaper though, I don't think people care about much else other than if it costs them less lol
OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
What parameters are you most interested to test?
Pretty much everything I can. Stress test, voltage curves, a couple of destructive tests (short circuit, etc.). We'll see what I have time for...
OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
Keep posting - very interested to see what you find.
Will you put it outside in minus 60-degrees C and show us what happens?!
OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
I would like to see what these can do in my region, it would be awesome to have a battery "like" the LiFePO4 but operable down to -20C without needing heat! (and above 30C without needing A/C!) yeah, I am SO ready for this temperature range. Time to test it out and see what the limitations are for these Sodium batteries.
Imagine a remote cabin with batteries that don't need any special protection any time of the year.
If they work well, my next step will be some DIY Sodium batteries from purchased cells and BMS, and see how that works out.
Imagine a remote cabin with batteries that don't need any special protection any time of the year.
If they work well, my next step will be some DIY Sodium batteries from purchased cells and BMS, and see how that works out.
Rocksnsalt
Solar Enthusiast
There seems to be some relatively serious investment going into sodium batteries.
At this point, it looks more feasible for large energy storage projects, though the 5000 cycle is considerably less than Lithium provides so it seems like there would have to be a very substantial cost offset.
Time will tell.
www.bloomberg.com
At this point, it looks more feasible for large energy storage projects, though the 5000 cycle is considerably less than Lithium provides so it seems like there would have to be a very substantial cost offset.
Time will tell.
Sodium in Batteries: Shift May Herald Another Shakeup
Battery giants are starting to put their money on new sodium-based technology, a sign that there could be yet another shakeup in the industry that’s crucial for the energy transition.
www.bloomberg.com
Plenty of development here in Europe as well, for example:
northvolt.com
www.linkedin.com
And more...
Northvolt develops state-of-the-art sodium-ion battery
Northvolt is proud to add sodium-ion to its cell chemistry portfolio, enabling safe, low-cost, sustainable power for energy storage systems.
northvolt.com
Tiamat Energy on LinkedIn: Tiamat brand new PHEV2 extreme power cells have just been released. With… | 30 comments
Tiamat brand new PHEV2 extreme power cells have just been released. With its high C-rate and decent energy density, our Gen1 power product is the ideal match… | 30 comments on LinkedIn
www.linkedin.com
And more...
OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
The net energy will be the scale to evaluate: if an energy storage system needs to use a portion of that stored energy for temperature regulation with Lithium, but does not need temperature regulation with Sodium - this will be a huge impact.There seems to be some relatively serious investment going into sodium batteries.
At this point, it looks more feasible for large energy storage projects, though the 5000 cycle is considerably less than Lithium provides so it seems like there would have to be a very substantial cost offset.
Time will tell.
Sodium in Batteries: Shift May Herald Another Shakeup
Battery giants are starting to put their money on new sodium-based technology, a sign that there could be yet another shakeup in the industry that’s crucial for the energy transition.
Imagine the energy use for A/C just to keep batteries cool in hot locations (like TX, AZ, NM, So-Cal), or likewise the energy to maintain at least 32F temps in colder climates (AK, Canada, Finland, etc) - a cell that needs no heating or cooling is a big win.
All that said, the Sodium cells have a much wider voltage curve and to use them with existing inverters, I expect we will not use the full voltage range. This will be a pos and neg thing" pos - the cells will last a long time being cycled through a smaller voltage range than their capacity; neg - the availabel usable capacity will be lower. I am excited to get some to try out.
Xepshunall
New Member
I really don't care what people have to say about the need for new charging methods. I intend to build a daily commuter car for my 10-mile round-trip for work. It'll have dual 48-volt banks that get connected in series when the car is powered up. I'll charge it from my home battery bank and each will have a 16-S (32s) BMS. Given the voltage range of the cells, I don't see why I'd need to be concerned. My home solar can't exceed the safe voltage and the cells are good down to 1.5 volts. I believe that people are over-thinking. I'll be staying well within the voltage range and be able to charge my car without pre-heating the battery packs. If there is a legitimate concern that I'm overlooking, I'm very receptive to constructive criticism. If it's that I'm wasting the potential of the cells, this is not my concern.
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OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
Do you have an inverter in mind that will work with the wide voltage range of the sodium cells? Curious.
ie 16s @ 1.5 volt = 24v, if you series two packs = 48v at the low end, but at the top end 4v x 16 = 64v and series connected x 2 =128 volt,
How will you utilize 48 to 128 volt range?
Rednecktek
Solar Wizard
That voltage curve sure looks a lot like lead acids. What's the comparison there look like?
Xepshunall
New Member
Each BMS will be 32s. I intend to use two of the same BMS that I would use for a 48-volt LiFePo4 battery. My home battery system is Lead-Acid and, when either or both of the 48-volt banks is switched to the charging position, it will disable the ignition switch and each car battery bank will charge directly from my home batteries and from the off-grid inverter. I see no reason for the need of any inversion. I have enough DC electrical knowledge to wire this up. My only concern is finding the appropriate contactor. There is little need for more than 96 volts in my city car but I'm aware that the upper end of the battery voltage will hit 117.2 volts when all of the batteries are connected because my home system is charged at 58.6 volts. This 3.6625 volts per cell is well within the safe range of the Sodium Ion cells. Still, I know that I'm only human so it is possible that I haven't considered all factors. As for DC to DC for 12vdc accessories, that should be simple enough. If anyone thinks to warn that the charging characteristics of Lead-Acid could cause damage to my new cells, I've thought about this and have purchased a device explained in this video.
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OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
Interesting,
what motor do you have in mind for this project?
what motor do you have in mind for this project?
Xepshunall
New Member
15kw High Rpm Induction Motor For Electric Kit - Buy High Rpm Ac Gear Motor,15kw Plug In Hybrid Car Conversion,20hp 15kw Electric Motor Product on Alibaba.com
15kw High Rpm Induction Motor For Electric Kit - Buy High Rpm Ac Gear Motor,15kw Plug In Hybrid Car Conversion,20hp 15kw Electric Motor Product on Alibaba.com
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OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
I hope you post your build and how it performs, interested to see the result.I explained to the salesperson that I want to be able to reach and maintain 55 mph for as much as 7/10 of a mile 10 times per week without harming the drivetrain. This is the kit she suggested.15kw High Rpm Induction Motor For Electric Kit - Buy High Rpm Ac Gear Motor,15kw Plug In Hybrid Car Conversion,20hp 15kw Electric Motor Product on Alibaba.com
15kw High Rpm Induction Motor For Electric Kit - Buy High Rpm Ac Gear Motor,15kw Plug In Hybrid Car Conversion,20hp 15kw Electric Motor Product on Alibaba.comwww.alibaba.com
Xepshunall
New Member
The automotive industry should be interested too. They make city cars too complicated and expensive for their purpose and if anything can reduce a carbon footprint, this can. The cost for the drivetrain is $2800 not counting shipping.
OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
Long before Solar, I was/am a car buff.
Seeing these kits coming on line is very exciting. Part of the reason for my own interest in Sodium batteries - Canadian Winters. LOL.
I leaned from this forum and YouTube to build my own battery packs, and now have six 280/304's plus smaller 12 and 24 volt packs and more E-bike battery packs than I can count.
Building batteries was a stepping stone to learn what it might take to build a car battery from cells.
Seeing these kits coming on line is very exciting. Part of the reason for my own interest in Sodium batteries - Canadian Winters. LOL.
I leaned from this forum and YouTube to build my own battery packs, and now have six 280/304's plus smaller 12 and 24 volt packs and more E-bike battery packs than I can count.
Building batteries was a stepping stone to learn what it might take to build a car battery from cells.
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