Is it the beginning of the end for Solark?

[timselectric]

disagree, we have had this conversation a few times.. there is zero export with a Ct on each mains. This allows the user to get the most out of the sun/solar panels.
Also allows for a much smaller much cheaper system that only has to cover high constant loads rather than being sized for infrequent high loads and surges.
in my area all I needed was an inspection to backfeed into the grid. I don’t backfeed, I save my excess in batteries but I do supply all my main panels loads. If the installation is done correctly and there’s a grid connection to the home, there’s no reason not have it inspected and approved and possibly an agreement if necessary.
when my batteries get low I don’t need to have an expensive inverter capable of 200amp pass through. The grid simply takes over and supplies the main panel like the inverter isn’t installed. Batteries recharge and inverter resumes covering/powering all of my homes loads it can up to inverters max output and grid simultaneously supplies the excess power up to the amp capability of the main panel.
And none of those loads the inverter is covering (all loads in main panel) needed to be moved out of that panel to a sub panel. Yes a few critical loads (needed to get by) can be moved to a subpanel so the inverters AC output can power those offgrid during power outages. Power outages are very rare for most people and are usually a very short duration. A much cheaper/smaller battery bank can get the user enough days of autonomy because only a few loads are moved offgrid. But the inverter that’s grid tie zero export is still zeroing their electric bill all the time.
Yes there’s a monthly fee to have grid power. Most have a grid connection. It’s VERY costly to have an offgrid setup that will allow for complete disconnection from the grid. For most people grid tie zero export is the most reasonable option and isn’t going anywhere soon. Most homes use way to much power to be offgrid. Once more people understand what grid tie zero export can really do and how much more efficiently it can use the sun and how much cheaper it is, more will start having setups that can achieve that, like the SolArk can.

Yes, we do disagree on this.
Especially in the system cost.

 

[mvonw]

Lastly Sol-Arks just work, so making YouTube videos of a Sol-Ark system installation is not going to get a content provider all that many clicks.

My DIY Sol Ark is definitely in the very boring category. I haven't looked at in several months.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

Yes, we do disagree on this.
Especially in the system cost.

This isn’t the thread for this so I will try to keep it short.
my inverters were $300 each. i have 2 of them so $600
my panels were 30 cents a watt so right at $2k for 5.7kw solar
17kwh Lifepo4 batteries $2500
charge controller $500
offgrid inverter $500
thats $6400
thats zeroes out my electric bill and gives me unlimited days of autonomy for the essentials to survive offgrid.
much cheaper than any offgrid setup that has to power the entire house. If only $6400 spent for offgrid setup (not having grid tie zero export) only part of the homes loads could be powered offgrid.
Nowadays there’s true hybrid inverters like SolArk that can do what my inverters can do and also have the offgrid inverter and charge controller built in. Cheaper ones like Megarevo and the price goes up from there

 

[timselectric]

This isn’t the thread for this so I will try to keep it short.
my inverters were $300 each. i have 2 of them so $600
my panels were 30 cents a watt so right at $2k for 5.7kw solar
17kwh Lifepo4 batteries $2500
charge controller $500
offgrid inverter $500
thats $6400
thats zeroes out my electric bill and gives me unlimited days of autonomy for the essentials to survive.
much cheaper than any offgrid setup that has to power the entire house. for only $6400 and not having grid tie zero export, only part of the homes loads could be powered by an offgrid setup.
Nowadays there’s true hybrid inverters like SolArk that can do what my inverters can do and also have the offgrid inverter built in. Cheaper ones like Megarevo and the price goes up from there

Don't want to go off topic.
But what inverters?

 

[Cheap 4-life]

I use GTIL2 inverters. I got them many years ago before true hybrids (grid tie zero export hybrids) were readily available

 

[Hedges]

FWIW some utility scale systems use microinverters when you’d think strings are a pure win. And those have bean counters policing the designs.

Bean Counters are the last people I look to for financial advice.

 

[Ampster]

it’s not clear the POCO has grounds to sue you (damages) if they detect. Maybe they can threaten to snitch on you to your AHJ

I don't think they have grounds to sue you, ,especially if you pull a permit. If you are on a NEM agreement about the only thing they can do is revoke your PTO or bump you to the next NEM tier which in California is NEM 3.0

 

[timselectric]

I use GTIL2 inverters. I got them many years ago before true hybrids (grid tie zero export hybrids) were readily available

That's a very small system. (4kw)
But I can do the same with off grid. For the same price, or less.
AIO (5kw) $600
Autotransformer $300
Chargeverter $400
Solar and battery can be the same.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

That's a very small system. (4kw)
But I can do the same with off grid. For the same price, or less.
AIO (5kw) $600
Autotransformer $300
Chargeverter $400
Solar and battery can be the same.

But it’s far from the same as I tried to explain. Offgrid inverters require the loads to be moved to after the inverter. If the offgrid setup was only 4kw then all of the homes loads couldn’t be moved to after the inverter unless the offgrid inverter had a 200amp pass thru. Then if all the homes loads are moved offgrid after the inverter (which isn’t necessary with a grid tie zero export hybrid) all of those loads would need to be powered offgrid when there’s a power outage. Unless loads are manually turned off, which again isn’t necessary with a true hybrid.
if the offgrid inverter is only 4kw then most likely only 4kw max of loads would be moved to be powered by the inverter, or an amount of loads that stays under the inverters pass thru capability if it has that option. and if it has pass thru with grid assist maybe it can use the grid simultaneously to power loads above the 4kw the inverter is capable of, but then only up to the max amp passthru the inverter allows which isn’t much of a pass thru amp amount at all for a 4kw inverter. A lot of so called hybrids only allow the grid to assist by supplying the first X amount of power to the load then the inverter handles the rest. Which combined is limited to what the 4kw inverter allows which isn’t nowhere near what most homes main panels allow. Grid tie zero export hybrids use the main panels amp capability not the inverters pass thru amount.
A lot of people do not move heavy loads to be powered offgrid when using smallish (4kw) offgrid inverters. But when the loads that are being powered by the inverter are not using a lot (let’s say only 1500w) then the remaining amount of inverter capability / free sun or battery power (2500w) is not being used but there could be larger loads in the main panel that are using grid power at that same time that the user is paying for, when the inverter could have powered them for free. That would add up to a lot of wasted sun..
in an attempt to keep this conversation relevant to this thread. The Solark can do all of what I’m saying and is not being phased out or the beginning of its end

 

[timselectric]

Ok
Let's make it short and sweet.
If you can cover all of your loads with zero export.
Then, there is no difference from an off grid setup with grid backup.
If not, then we can't compare. Because it's apples to oranges.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

Ok
Let's make it short and sweet.
If you can cover all of your loads with zero export.
Then, there is no difference from an off grid setup with grid backup.
If not, then we can't compare. Because it's apples to oranges.

Unfortunately this is a hard issue to grasp without having a grid tie zero export setup.
there is differences. I explained them in the last few posts.

offgrid would only allow for a smaller amount of loads as I explained above. the main panel however can be looked at as having a free 200amp pass thru ability...
not as many loads to be moved around..
with a small offgrid inverter powering loads in an average home, theres wasted sun sitting there when it could be powering loads that had to be left in the main panel to not exceed a smaller offgrid inverters output and pass thru..
etc
etc

 

[Nobodybusiness]

This isn’t the thread for this so I will try to keep it short.
my inverters were $300 each. i have 2 of them so $600
my panels were 30 cents a watt so right at $2k for 5.7kw solar
17kwh Lifepo4 batteries $2500
charge controller $500
offgrid inverter $500
thats $6400
thats zeroes out my electric bill and gives me unlimited days of autonomy for the essentials to survive offgrid.
much cheaper than any offgrid setup that has to power the entire house. for only $6400 and not having grid tie zero export, only part of the homes loads could be powered by an offgrid setup.
Nowadays there’s true hybrid inverters like SolArk that can do what my inverters can do and also have the offgrid inverter and charge controller built in. Cheaper ones like Megarevo and the price goes up from there

You have complete autonomy on an all electric house with that setup?

 

[zanydroid]

The main cost savings of going with off grid hardware while retaining grid connection is avoiding regulatory capture and installing much cheaper equipment. Whether DIY batteries or stuff not listed to correct standard. So like SolArk 8K vs 6000XP, and lower price point than Power Pro. 75% lower cost of inverter and maybe 30% lower cost on batteries.

I doubt a UL9450 listed SolArk killer at 6000XP prices will make a difference. Look at heat pumps/HVAC. There is no equivalent regulatory capture checkmate like UL9540. System cost for turn key install in high COLA areas has gone UP despite Gree and Hisense coming in at all the price points.

Where are all the cut rate turnkey installers using that hardware at half the price? Non-existent in San Francisco area. You have to do owner builder and know who is willing to weekend warrior for you, or do it all yourself.

IOW there are way more structural things controlling the market than simply equipment options.

 

[Solar254]

Ok
Let's make it short and sweet.
If you can cover all of your loads with zero export.
Then, there is no difference from an off grid setup with grid backup.
If not, then we can't compare. Because it's apples to oranges.

Unfortunately this is a hard issue to grasp without having a grid tie zero export setup.
there is differences. I explained them in the last few posts.

offgrid would only allow for a smaller amount of loads as I explained above. the main panel however can be looked at as having a free 200amp pass thru ability...
not as many loads to be moved around..
with a small offgrid inverter powering loads in an average home, theres wasted sun sitting there when it could be powering loads that had to be left in the main panel to not exceed a smaller offgrid inverters output and pass thru..
etc
etc

This is well explained here:

 

[zanydroid]

Because it's apples to oranges.

IMO the end user cares about the properties of the solution - system cost, operating cost and savings, duration of autonomy, operational quality vs level of operational expertise (we should assume average customer knows next to nothing: IE can’t run their own networks or do their own oil changes, don’t understand how true up math works…

whether from brain too small or has to use brain for more important stuff than basic utilities. I have a ton of scientist and engineer friends and they won’t want to use their brains on this stuff).

 

[houseofancients]

Well SolArk and EG4 are probably both sub-$50M companies, so maybe.

Hoymiles is much smaller than SE or Enphase in US domestic footprint. In terms of international market cap, probably same class.

Maybe, don't forget that sol-ark is basically a reseller/rebadger .
Should they go down ( which I don't hope as their support seems fantastic) Deye will take over..
What I do see happening is that they will have an issue with the margins as they are extreme..
I think the playing field is levelling out a bit and do forsee sol-ark being forced to lower their margins by quite a bit
Also I have the feeling the are focussing more on installers, which scews the "social media" factor

 

[DIYrich]

"Zero export" and "net zero" are not the same, unless you never import from the grid (or use the grid only to charge batteries). That special case is also effectivly "off-grid".

sure it is cheaper to build Zero Export, but that is conceding a smaller system that imports from the grid to supplement. A larger system is Net Zero, and will cost more. Next step is an energency system during grid down (some loads not powered). Finally, a system capable of grid down / off grid (with loads managed, but all still operating) at the worst time of year is more still. Note: multi-day rainy days during grid down is easily taken care of with a cheap generator and chargeverter.

 

[DIYrich]

Those optimizers and microinverters are more evidence IMO that they're going heavy after installer market in their strategy. Different installers have different preferred flavors of gear.

I wouldn't be surprised if we start hearing stuff about how the micros don't work as natively as one might think, with their string inverters. That would be acceptable with the goal of diversifying their offerings to installers. Optimizers not working well with their string inverters would be inexcusable.

I wonder if micros that can be turned off without frequency shifting, would be a big enough market. Add to a system without having to parallel a second inverter. If a micro has shutdown functions, it isn't much more to be able to send a targeted shutdown signal.

I have a special case where max export to grid is 25Kw that is set by the utility. I can't parallel a 2nd 15k because the potential is there to exceed the limit. Having 10kW of ac solar would be helpful.

 

[Danke]

I wonder if micros that can be turned off without frequency shifting, would be a big enough market. Add to a system without having to parallel a second inverter. If a micro has shutdown functions, it isn't much more to be able to send a targeted shutdown signal.

I have a special case where max export to grid is 25Kw that is set by the utility. I can't parallel a 2nd 15k because the potential is there to exceed the limit. Having 10kW of ac solar would be helpful.

15k. Is that a Sol-Ark?

 

[timselectric]

Unfortunately this is a hard issue to grasp without having a grid tie zero export setup.
there is differences. I explained them in the last few posts.

offgrid would only allow for a smaller amount of loads as I explained above. the main panel however can be looked at as having a free 200amp pass thru ability...
not as many loads to be moved around..
with a small offgrid inverter powering loads in an average home, theres wasted sun sitting there when it could be powering loads that had to be left in the main panel to not exceed a smaller offgrid inverters output and pass thru..
etc
etc

Not hard to grasp, two very simple systems.
Like I said.
Apples to oranges.
We will just continue to agree to disagree.
Which is perfectly fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
I don't want to derail this thread any further.