SMA sunny island settings for signature solar EG4ll batteries

BigPines said:

Since SMA is now discontinuing the Sunny Island line, this is now a dead end.

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Any links or references to that?

A newer model Sunny Island is sold in Europe. Do you know if that is also being discontinued, or if it will come to the US?
I noticed it had a different list of compatible 48V batteries.

We've heard Sunny Boy is being discontinued, replaced with Hybrid Smart Energy. But that isn't going to hold a candle to Sunny Island and all its split phase, 3 phase, multi-cluster capabilities.

But I can imagine them going to all HF designs, so much lighter and cheaper.

Sorry, I don't have any personal knowledge about SMA's plans for the Sunny Island. This is just what Current Connected told me. I don't even know if it is true or not - I actually hope it isn't true. These are amazing inverters. It would be a shame if they were to discontinue them and replace them with cheaper / lighter high frequency designs.

I've just completed an install with 2 SMA Sunny Island 6048's split phase using EG4-LL V2 batteries, using their closed loop option. It works. Mostly. Something weird is going on where the backup generator starts randomly. The inverters start and stop the generator based on SOC exclusively. So maybe this is a similar issue that SOK was having. So far I can't get support from Signature solar or EG4. I talked with SMA, they said it's the unsupported battery manufacturers issue and talk to them. A total cop out if you ask me. There's a lot missing from EG4 documentation. I also spoke to another SMA sales representative. No plans of discontinuing SI, but the Sunny boys are gone, which really sucks. I'll be doing a bit of reverse engineering if I get no answers from EG4. I plan to sniff the CAN bus and do some data logging. Will let everyone know if.i come up with a solution, because I service and maintain numerous SI inverters and would love a solid option.

Smart Energy should do everything Sunny Boy does, plus has battery input.
Maybe it will also work with ABU, as SBS does, to provide backup power.
Replacing Sunny Boy, I assume it will be priced similarly.

I expect it will ramp down power for frequency-watts. Would want it to ramp down invert from battery first, before it ramps down PV production. But what I'm really curious about is whether it would also ramp up battery charging at frequencies between those two. (I would like to used it on a Sunny Island system, keeping SI's lead-acid batteries at float while cycling Smart Energy or SBS lithium battery.)

Have you seen SI display SoC that matches the generator starting?

Can you use an external circuit to start generator when battery voltage dips to the lower knee? Or, does BMS offer any SoC based switching?

Of course, bad SoC data in SI also messes up load-shed.

Hedges said:

Smart Energy should do everything Sunny Boy does, plus has battery input.
Maybe it will also work with ABU, as SBS does, to provide backup power.
Replacing Sunny Boy, I assume it will be priced similarly.

I expect it will ramp down power for frequency-watts. Would want it to ramp down invert from battery first, before it ramps down PV production. But what I'm really curious about is whether it would also ramp up battery charging at frequencies between those two. (I would like to used it on a Sunny Island system, keeping SI's lead-acid batteries at float while cycling Smart Energy or SBS lithium battery.)

Have you seen SI display SoC that matches the generator starting?

Can you use an external circuit to start generator when battery voltage dips to the lower knee? Or, does BMS offer any SoC based switching?

Of course, bad SoC data in SI also messes up load-shed.

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According to my sales rep the Smart energy will cost nearly double the Sunny boys. However it will work with SI and can add more storage capacity to the microgrid.
I've seen the gen start when the SI and BMS both read 100% soc. It only runs for the minimum cycle (warmup and cool down) I have some ideas what might be happening. I can make a workaround for the gen control, but my concern is that there are other issues in the closed loop control that havent been revealed yet. It should just work, or EG4 should figure it out. They can't even write a decent user manual or answer emails, so my confidence is low.

rem_electric said:

According to my sales rep the Smart energy will cost nearly double the Sunny boys. However it will work with SI and can add more storage capacity to the microgrid.
I've seen the gen start when the SI and BMS both read 100% soc. It only runs for the minimum cycle (warmup and cool down) I have some ideas what might be happening. I can make a workaround for the gen control, but my concern is that there are other issues in the closed loop control that havent been revealed yet. It should just work, or EG4 should figure it out. They can't even write a decent user manual or answer emails, so my confidence is low.

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Shit. That isn’t good news. Guess it’s time to order as many Sunny Boys as I think I will ever need.

I wonder how/if REC BMS will function with Smart Energy. Or maybe they contain the battery? I really haven’t paid much attention to them as they looked like they were more of a grid back up system and not really positioned for off grid.

I suspect they aren’t discontinuing the Sunny Boys world wide as SMA was positioned as a whole village type of product when scaled. Shame they are doing away with at least the US version.

Something told me that this EG4 product would be half assed.

Might have to go with Schneider or Victron for my next setup. I don’t really want to though.

Double ?? Ouch! As in $5000? For something 1/4 the weight of Sunny Island?

SB was about $2500 list, $1800 street price. Bringing out a product that costs more isn't a way to win market share, but if for some reason it doesn't impact sales, then it could make sense.

Now if the 11.4kW model was double the 7.7kW, that would be OK. I'm not sure that SBS has any hardware costs SB doesn't have, and Smart Energy should just have a couple more inputs.

Great news if it works downstream of SI while managing its battery appropriately. Of course, as a GT PV inverter it is expected to; the question is how battery is managed. I didn't think people would be interested in a hierarchy of batteries, however. I just wanted that to keep SI's lead-acid at float.

REC BMS? That works for US model SI. European model SI has a different list of supported batteries. SBS has a list of HV batteries, and I haven't been able to find out what BMS that needs. REC of course supports up to 128s, although I don't know if that works with REC-SI BMS.


SB Secure Power provided 120V up to 2000W direct from PV panels.
SBS Secure Power provided 120V up to 2000W from battery.
Dumb Energy "Backup Insecure" provides 120V up to 1920W ... only while the sun shines??
... and let me guess, it won't recharge battery from PV, either, with grid down.
I sure hope it supports ABU. With 11.4kW, they could have something here.

Hedges said:

Double ?? Ouch! As in $5000? For something 1/4 the weight of Sunny Island?

SB was about $2500 list, $1800 street price. Bringing out a product that costs more isn't a way to win market share, but if for some reason it doesn't impact sales, then it could make sense.

Now if the 11.4kW model was double the 7.7kW, that would be OK. I'm not sure that SBS has any hardware costs SB doesn't have, and Smart Energy should just have a couple more inputs.

Great news if it works downstream of SI while managing its battery appropriately. Of course, as a GT PV inverter it is expected to; the question is how battery is managed. I didn't think people would be interested in a hierarchy of batteries, however. I just wanted that to keep SI's lead-acid at float.

REC BMS? That works for US model SI. European model SI has a different list of supported batteries. SBS has a list of HV batteries, and I haven't been able to find out what BMS that needs. REC of course supports up to 128s, although I don't know if that works with REC-SI BMS.

Discover the Sunny Boy Smart Energy | SMA America

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SB Secure Power provided 120V up to 2000W direct from PV panels.
SBS Secure Power provided 120V up to 2000W from battery.
Dumb Energy "Backup Insecure" provides 120V up to 1920W ... only while the sun shines??
... and let me guess, it won't recharge battery from PV, either, with grid down.
I sure hope it supports ABU. With 11.4kW, they could have something here.

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RECs work world wide. Not sure if the firmware is different. Toms is in Australia for example. And there’s a French based YouTube channel that uses REC and SMA (forget the name, blackberry farm or something, he’s not a pro YouTuber). Both him and Toms use bigger batteries than I do. 3p16s or 4p16s type of setups. Mine are simple 16s setups with a BMS each (plus a master) and then going to a combiner box

Af f$$$$&k! It seems Sunny Boys are out of stock everywhere except for a few that are selling at full list. Thanks for the warning SMA!

Yeah, next system will not be from them. Might as well install the Chinesium with six month long product windows at this rate.

I bet they are trying to bend over those that are buying Solar World trailers in this post Covid wave of auctions.

REC has a couple firmware versions, one to support SI.
Europe used to have SI similar to the US model (it was there first, of course). Now Europe has the 8.0H model.
Do you know which REC model works with that 8.0H?

I expect to use LiFePO4 with REC for SI one of these days. I could see moving my AGM bank to new NEM 2.0 reservation system and putting lithium on my older system when it gets bumped to NEM 3.0. Except, I don't know how to get SI to do the time shifting desired for gaming the time of use and export rates.

I would expect SBS and SB-SE to do what's needed to not get screwed over by NEM 3.0, so downstream of SI might be the thing to do.

So you have 2x REC-SI 16s, and those are combined in parallel with a master?
Do you know if that's the same master that would be used to make a 32s or longer string? I hadn't seen reference to use of a master for parallel string BMS.

SilverbackMP said:

Af f$$$$&k! It seems Sunny Boys are out of stock everywhere except for a few that are selling at full list. Thanks for the warning SMA!

Yeah, next system will not be from them. Might as well install the Chinesium with six month long product windows at this rate.

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Are you doing grid-tied systems with export, so you need the latest features?
I stocked up on 5000US, so I'm all set for off-grid systems. Or if I can figure out how to do zero-export (grid as generator?)

Of

Hedges said:

REC has a couple firmware versions, one to support SI.
Europe used to have SI similar to the US model (it was there first, of course). Now Europe has the 8.0H model.
Do you know which REC model works with that 8.0H?

I expect to use LiFePO4 with REC for SI one of these days. I could see moving my AGM bank to new NEM 2.0 reservation system and putting lithium on my older system when it gets bumped to NEM 3.0. Except, I don't know how to get SI to do the time shifting desired for gaming the time of use and export rates.

I would expect SBS and SB-SE to do what's needed to not get screwed over by NEM 3.0, so downstream of SI might be the thing to do.

So you have 2x REC-SI 16s, and those are combined in parallel with a master?
Do you know if that's the same master that would be used to make a 32s or longer string? I hadn't seen reference to use of a master for parallel string BMS.



Are you doing grid-tied systems with export, so you need the latest features?
I stocked up on 5000US, so I'm all set for off-grid systems. Or if I can figure out how to do zero-export (grid as generator?)

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Offgrid with 8x 16s (not all are installed in the photo below).


Feeding into a MidNite Solar 2000 amp combiner box using MidNite 250 amp DC breakers (also fused in the boxes with 300 amp blue sea fuses after the Rec Contactors).

And then to the SIs:

Side note : Two of my SIs were new ones and two were trailer takeoffs (not by me). It’s worth buying at least one new one as a master just so one doesn’t have to jack around with firmware updating. One less thing to worry about when commissioning.

I am beyond pissed and disappointed with SMA. Absolutely no warning. I do have that extra 7.7 mounted on the bottom there. But I was considering expanding with more panels. And the way I have the panels wired, I can’t use anything other than a 7.7 as I have a 280 foot run from the panels and packed the wires with as much voltage as I could. The wiring was still $2-3k not including paying folks to help me with the conduit install and pull.

Unless you want old firmware. So you can use Sunny Island Charger or Midnight Classic and have them talk to SI.

Haven't seen your inside pictures before, only the inverters.
Are those 100 Ah or 280 Ah batteries?

I suppose REC master requests reduced voltage and/or current to avoid runner cells in all batteries, slowing down charging so the worst balanced can equalize?

Conduit - are we supposed to have plastic bushings on all? Or some rounded enough they're not a problem, and only reamed pipe is sharp enough to be an issue? Often I have romex clamps which I don't worry about; that has jacket. But I also pull wires through conduit. And large gauge is more difficult to bend as desired so would bear on those edges.

Offgrid, keep your eye open for new old stock. There are both transformer type and transformerless with wattage spanning range above/below 7.7kW. Some are less flexible on MPPT range (I think the higher wattage ones didn't support lower voltage?)

I would think you might consider 3-phase and multi-cluster if off-grid and building new systems. Although Multi-cluster box costs a lot, and single cluster is only 18kW.

If rest of world models still available, might they work for you? Off-grid so US listings less important. Data sheet covers voltage and frequency you need. of course, firmware may not actually do what is expected. (I understand US model SI, set for 50 Hz, doesn't work as desired for 120V 50 Hz markets.)

Otherwise, there are used ones out there. Most recently I saw a 7.7kW -40 model on eBay. Now there is a -41 model "open box"

carlsonultimate said:

Hi,
I recently replaced my old lead acid batteries with new signature solar eg4ll batteries.

System specs
Two Sunny boys AC coupled with Two Sunny islands
10,000W PV running two the sunny boys
1 outback flexmax80 with 3000W PV
12 (48V) signature Solar EG4ll LFP Batteries (60KW)(1200AHr)
Propane backup geni

I went through the new battery set up on the SI and set to VLRA as suggested by tech support sense the BMS on the EG4's is not compatible with the the SI's.
set as
48 V
VLRA
1200AHr

System started up fine but the SOC on the SI has been significantly lower than what the EG4 read. Example; the SI read 1% and the EG4's read 78% at 53.3V. So this is my first problem I am not able to use the whole capacity of the batteries. The second problem is during charging the EG4's go into Over voltage protection around 54V. The specs for the BMS say that OV protection occurs at 60V so maybe I just haven't been there to observe it. I've lowered all of the charging values to 2.3V. Once the EG4's go into OV the SI will start to give a F201 Malfunction VBATMAX, this happens 3 times with the system turning off for about 30 seconds and coming back on until I get a F710 Failure autostrcnt which puts it in standby.

Can anyone recommend different settings? Any help would be greatly appreciated, I've talked to SMA tech support but there not much help, they just tell me that the EG4's are not a supported battery...

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I am assuming you have the EG4 V2s. If so there is a CAN protocol SMA you can select for close loop. This has been tested and works. If you have the lifepower batteries you will need the comms hub for the SMA protocol

Hedges said:

Unless you want old firmware. So you can use Sunny Island Charger or Midnight Classic and have them talk to SI.

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Yeah, have/had no plans to go with DC coupling and the SI might need to be in Lithium mode for the REC to communicate (??? not sure). IMHO DC coupling defeats the reason for going with SMA to start with. Might as well go with Outback, Victron, etc. Schneider can AC couple too, but the best choice here was Sunny Boy.

Haven't seen your inside pictures before, only the inverters.
Are those 100 Ah or 280 Ah batteries?

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230 AH Calb cells, EV grade from Current Connected. One thing to note here is that I don't think that a REC with M/S setup can use different sized AH cells in various batteries. There's only one setting for AH size (that I have found). I could be wrong, but one might want to pick their AH size well ahead of time if one wants to expand. I could probably use 230 AH Eve cells for additional batteries, but not 280 or 310, etc.

I suppose REC master requests reduced voltage and/or current to avoid runner cells in all batteries, slowing down charging so the worst balanced can equalize?

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From what I understand this is what it does. And controls the contactors in each of the batteries (it's kind of impressive when they all click on at once when turning on the system).

Conduit - are we supposed to have plastic bushings on all? Or some rounded enough they're not a problem, and only reamed pipe is sharp enough to be an issue? Often I have romex clamps which I don't worry about; that has jacket. But I also pull wires through conduit. And large gauge is more difficult to bend as desired so would bear on those edges.

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No idea. My electrician (this was kind of a collaborative effort between us) is a former US Army electrician (then reclassed to Infantry and was a Ranger Battalion bubba), then ran his own industrial electrical service, then owned an electrical supply house, then was a power plant administrator, now does some electrical work and excavation in his retirement. I said to conform to NEC as much as possible/made sense. The wiring is Ancor brand and has a super thick jacket (those Klein 4 in 1 cable strippers will not work, jacket is too thick). The combiner box is join to the battery cabinet using "asshole" connectors so it's basically attached. I have no inspectors and no duty to conform to NEC (I wouldn't want to argue this in civil court though).

Offgrid, keep your eye open for new old stock. There are both transformer type and transformerless with wattage spanning range above/below 7.7kW. Some are less flexible on MPPT range (I think the higher wattage ones didn't support lower voltage?)

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I suspect prices are going to rise - especially with these new rounds of trailer sales. There's no real replacement for these unlike the older Sunny Boys.

I would think you might consider 3-phase and multi-cluster if off-grid and building new systems. Although Multi-cluster box costs a lot, and single cluster is only 18kW.

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I thought about it. Even ran 3 phase wire between buildings. I need the extra capacity of the 4x SI for what there. The thing that keeps from installing the Multi-Cluster box is 1) figuring out the system. 2) space in the existing shed (12x12 with one side being a garage door but that could be framed up), and 3) most importantly, lightning. I think I'd rather have multiple discrete systems so you at least have something functional in the event of a direct strike. Ameren isn't going to come to fix it.

Otherwise, there are used ones out there. Most recently I saw a 7.7kW -40 model on eBay. Now there is a -41 model "open box"

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I think I'd better start buying ASAP. I was going to go with more panels elsewhere with locally located panels and SBs (i.e. on a future carport near my shop with the SB located in the shop).

My next system may not be SMA though. Which sucks as I was hoping to keep one type of system for spares.

The new in the box SI 6048-US I got due to DC Solar have a lithium BMS mode, and are dated a few years ago.
It was a 5048-US I set up with Sunny Island Charger.
Guess I need to try with the 6048, see if BMS and SIC both work.

I thought it was an even later revision firmware which broke Midnight's protocol conversion board. I've bought one of those and a Classic but not connected yet.

I thought there could be some benefit to a bit of DC coupling. I'd rather never have to do emergency charge. I do use load-shed to avoid that, but you never know when something might go wrong, so backup approach could be good.

You don't have any particular need for SB -40 or -41 vs. older models, do you?
My preference is older, where I can select negative or positive grounded PV array, to ensure no degradation from PID.
But I'm acquiring latest model for new NEM agreement.

More trailer sales, meaning DC solar trailers with SI? You figure that increases demand for SB? I would think a drop in the bucket compared to grid tied SB installs, but certainly more demand for used/liquidation Sunny Boys.

Another thing to consider with using old vs new Sunny Boys…is I am not sure if the old ones have Ethernet ports? I am assuming that I can see SBs over and through a VLAN network. I haven’t tried it as of yet. I know the newer ones are controlled completely off of frequency shift, but I would like all of that data to feed into the SMA Data Manager (I have the full version, not the M) and possibly to Home Assistant or Solar Assistant. I haven’t installed the Data Manager as of yet, so I don’t really know how it works.

Hedges said:

The new in the box SI 6048-US I got due to DC Solar have a lithium BMS mode, and are dated a few years ago.
It was a 5048-US I set up with Sunny Island Charger.
Guess I need to try with the 6048, see if BMS and SIC both work.

I thought it was an even later revision firmware which broke Midnight's protocol conversion board. I've bought one of those and a Classic but not connected yet.

I thought there could be some benefit to a bit of DC coupling. I'd rather never have to do emergency charge. I do use load-shed to avoid that, but you never know when something might go wrong, so backup approach could be good.

You don't have any particular need for SB -40 or -41 vs. older models, do you?
My preference is older, where I can select negative or positive grounded PV array, to ensure no degradation from PID.
But I'm acquiring latest model for new NEM agreement.

More trailer sales, meaning DC solar trailers with SI? You figure that increases demand for SB? I would think a drop in the bucket compared to grid tied SB installs, but certainly more demand for used/liquidation Sunny Boys.

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No particular need? No, othan the afore mentioned communication capability. I was going to keep the 7.7 size as a standard though and design any expansion around that in order to reduce the SKU counts of any backups.

SB 5000US has optional RS-485 piggyback and switches UL-1741 to island based on signal. Don't think it supports Speedwire.
SB 10000TL-US-12 accepts RS-485 and Speedwire piggybacks. Over RS-485 I couldn't talk to it from Sunny Boy Control. With Speedwire I configured it by Sunny Explorer.

SMA has some gateway that should get data from RS-485 linked inverters and transfer to Speedwire. I haven't tried that.

Sunny TriPower, I have RS-485 and Speedwire modules. I think I saw serial number but couldn't read or configure with RS-485 and Sunny WebBox so I used Speedwire and Sunny Explorer. But SMA support said they do use Sunny WebBox to communicate with it.

Sunny Island, I couldn't reach from Sunny Boy Control, but Sunny WebBox did. (RS-485.)

Data sheet for Data Manager M shows SMA Comm Gateway accessing RS-485 equipment.
Also, RS-485 from Data Manager M accessing them, without Gateway.


I assume you have your -40 or -41 inverters in Island, not Rule-21 mode?

Monitoring may vary, and some inverters might clip wattage, but functionality is mostly interchangeable. Minimum MPPT will impact some. Other models, seems like it might limit maximum power but not operation.

Looks like $2699 for the 11.4 if this is correct:
Which is isn't too bad. Figures, I panic bought 7x more SB 7.7s but at least I can quit for a while (I was looking for more lol). At least we know (or think we know) that SMA hasn't shit the bed on pricing.

Ahh, much better!
Compared to SB 7.7 -41, which I think had $2500 MSRP and $1800 or so street price, $2700 for 11.4 kW is quite decent.

I did my NEM 2.0 reservation for 2x 7.7 = 15.4 kW.
Maybe I should install 1x SB SE 11.4 and 1x SB 3.8
I already have a SB 7.0, don't know if PG&E will accept set for 4 kW or with only enough panels for that.
I would like to use a Smart Energy for time shifting and possible lithium storage in addition to AGM on SI (if it plays nice).

This thing really should work with ABU for split-phase backup. SMA's documentation doesn't mention backup but reseller links do.
It would be good for my sister's GT PV install with battery added later.

rem_electric said:

I've just completed an install with 2 SMA Sunny Island 6048's split phase using EG4-LL V2 batteries, using their closed loop option. It works. Mostly. Something weird is going on where the backup generator starts randomly. The inverters start and stop the generator based on SOC exclusively. So maybe this is a similar issue that SOK was having. So far I can't get support from Signature solar or EG4. I talked with SMA, they said it's the unsupported battery manufacturers issue and talk to them. A total cop out if you ask me. There's a lot missing from EG4 documentation. I also spoke to another SMA sales representative. No plans of discontinuing SI, but the Sunny boys are gone, which really sucks. I'll be doing a bit of reverse engineering if I get no answers from EG4. I plan to sniff the CAN bus and do some data logging. Will let everyone know if.i come up with a solution, because I service and maintain numerous SI inverters and would love a solid option.

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Thats awesome, your the first person I've heard getting closed loop to work with Eg4ll and SMA. mind telling me how you did it?

Markus_EG4 said:

I am assuming you have the EG4 V2s. If so there is a CAN protocol SMA you can select for close loop. This has been tested and works. If you have the lifepower batteries you will need the comms hub for the SMA protocol

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I have EG4ll 48V V1's... Is there any way to get the V1's to work closed loop?