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NEM PGE Application Questions

Now I installed the system and got a final singed off permit - single page describing the project with a single line - "22.5kw and 50 panels PV" along with the address and the signature of the inspector. Now I need to upload to "yourprojects-pge.com" a signed off final permit. Do I need to upload only this single page or also the solar plan that is another 11 pages describing the project along with this single page?
 
Georgie said:
Now I installed the system and got a final singed off permit - single page describing the project with a single line - "22.5kw and 50 panels PV" along with the address and the signature of the inspector. Now I need to upload to "yourprojects-pge.com" a signed off final permit. Do I need to upload only this single page or also the solar plan that is another 11 pages describing the project along with this single page?
Click to expand...

I uploaded the 3 pages Placer County "Building Permit", last page has solar signoff signature. I think signed page is good. Two hours later PGE sent email stating PTO is good and they are tracking solar generation.
 
A year ago I purchased solar panels which turned out to not be on the CEC approved list. Renesola 370watt. Renesola has changed its name aroudn this time and seems that this may have made them to not apply for CEC listing. lower wattage Renesola panels have been listed on CEC list. Anyhow, I wonder whether anyone knows whether such non CEC listed panels can be installed on pge grid solar. I am aware that in the online application they have a drop down menu with CEC approved panels.
 
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Georgie said:
A year ago I purchased solar panels which turned out to not be on the CEC approved list. Renesola 370watt. Renesola has changed its name aroudn this time and seems that this may have made them to not apply for CEC listing. lower wattage Renesola panels have been listed on CEC list. Anyhow, I wonder whether anyone knows whether such non CEC listed panels can be installed on pge grid solar. I am aware that in the online application they have a drop down menu with CEC approved panels.
Click to expand...

Just put a known CEC approved panel in the application, no one is going to go on the roof and pull a panel to confirm what is on the label.
 
I installed solar under NEM2. I would like to add some "off grid" solar to the house. So essentially would like to install an inverter with a zero export controller that will limit the backfeed from that particular inverter. I just wondered whether this is allowed by PGE, and whether an installation application is necessary. If this has been discussed somewhere else, I would appreciate a link. By zero export controller - I mean something like this:http://www.elgrispower.com/zero-exp...ZERO EXPORT combines a,feeding in to the grid.
 
I think when you install CT at the meter, it will drop your new "zero export" system to zero if you have any export from existing NEM2 system.

I think what you want is:

Meter
[main breaker, ideally here]
Tap for NEM2 --> breaker --> NEM2 inverter
CT for zero export
House panel (with loads and new "zero export" inverter)

That should allow "zero export" inverter to supply all it can or all house loads, whichever is less.
This will allow NEM2 inverter to export 100% of its production, or 100% of production less what it needs to supply to house.

I think a grid-interactive inverter requires utility permission to connect.
But since you already have permission for the system they are expected to see, and out of concern PG&E might not understand or agree with the nuances of this modified system, I would be inclined to install with a permit but say nothing to PG&E. They could of course observe a decrease in net consumption, increase in export during the day. Maybe a great time to install an energy saving appliance that PG&E gives a rebate for, like HPWH, etc.?
 
Hedges said:
I think when you install CT at the meter, it will drop your new "zero export" system to zero if you have any export from existing NEM2 system.

I think what you want is:

Meter
[main breaker, ideally here]
Tap for NEM2 --> breaker --> NEM2 inverter
CT for zero export
House panel (with loads and new "zero export" inverter)

That should allow "zero export" inverter to supply all it can or all house loads, whichever is less.
This will allow NEM2 inverter to export 100% of its production, or 100% of production less what it needs to supply to house.

I think a grid-interactive inverter requires utility permission to connect.
But since you already have permission for the system they are expected to see, and out of concern PG&E might not understand or agree with the nuances of this modified system, I would be inclined to install with a permit but say nothing to PG&E. They could of course observe a decrease in net consumption, increase in export during the day. Maybe a great time to install an energy saving appliance that PG&E gives a rebate for, like HPWH, etc.?
Click to expand...
Thank you, Hedges. I was thinking of doing it in a similar way. I am just wondering whether, PGE has expressed any opinion whether they consider such a setup to be "offgrid".
 
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I'm finding references to "Export" but not "zero export" on their web pages and "Green book"

If I was them, I would want to be informed of such a device, which operates in parallel, and make sure it is disconnected when disconnect switch is thrown. To know where there are "generators" that could malfunction.

Maybe have a friend inquire on your behalf.

I would try to operate under the radar of PG&E, but with permits in case a neighbor reports.
People with no utility agreement have the problem of spurious emissions, but you don't.
 
I'm doing something similar in Michigan. We have 8 kW of panels on a net metering agreement. Due to a hot tub and house enlargement our usage has more than doubled. So I've added another 20 kW system that's 0 export into a separate dedicated panel. It's been running since late December with no complaints yet from the utility.
 
Georgie said:
I installed solar under NEM2. I would like to add some "off grid" solar to the house. So essentially would like to install an inverter with a zero export controller that will limit the backfeed from that particular inverter. I just wondered whether this is allowed by PGE, and whether an installation application is necessary. If this has been discussed somewhere else, I would appreciate a link. By zero export controller - I mean something like this:http://www.elgrispower.com/zero-export-solar-controller/#:~:text=The ZERO EXPORT combines a,feeding in to the grid.
Click to expand...
It's not allowed by PG&E, Rule21 covers all equipment connected in parallel with grid. I've read the different options in detail in the original doc.

That is different from whether they can catch you. If you have grid-tie solar and it's during the day then it depends on if your usage changes. I think it's very unlikely for them to be able to detect unless someone flies a drone over to audit your solar panels, and I would strongly bet they don't have this data about property owners.

If you have battery and you run it in parallel with grid after hours, there is a good chance they will detect you in the near future as the smart meters and monitoring get upgraded. Since the zero export controller will have be leaking some transient power back to the grid.
 
Georgie said:
Thank you, Hedges. I was thinking of doing it in a similar way. I am just wondering whether, PGE has expressed any opinion whether they consider such a setup to be "offgrid".
Click to expand...
(missed the updates on this thread when I typed my post). It's equivalent to installing co-generation plant in factories and active standby backup generators/inverters that are always spun up & synchronized to grid. Which predates DER (solar). Rule21 covers those in the non NEM types of interconnection agreements (IE, the ones that cost $795 or so per facility)

I don't know if there's a zero export version covered by the $145 agreement.

While I was learning about this, I discovered that it is also covered in Modesto Irrigation District's Rule21 (simpler document, I don't live there, but it's great to read something 5 pages instead of 500) but IIRC they may be more lenient about it than PG&E.
 
Hedges said:
I would try to operate under the radar of PG&E, but with permits in case a neighbor reports.
Click to expand...
FWIW the permits will lock a public paper trail with a time & date when you installed the dubious system, since it will be covered in SLD and product choice.

Unless that is fudged which potentially "checkmates" you for other problems.
 
Hedges said:
I would be inclined to install with a permit but say nothing to PG&E.
Click to expand...
I completely agree and have done exactly what @Hedges has recommend and pulled a permit. I have not asked PG&E for permission..
zanydroid said:
It's not allowed by PG&E, Rule21 covers all equipment connected in parallel with grid.
Click to expand...
Rule 21 does not have the effect of a statute which would make it a crime. Worse case it is a contractual requirement of a NEM agreement. I have analyzed to risk and the benefits are far greater than the risk. To be clear, the worse case is I would lose NEM2 and be kicked into NEM3.
 
zanydroid said:
It's not allowed by PG&E, Rule21 covers all equipment connected in parallel with grid. I've read the different options in detail in the original doc.
Click to expand...

Then a way to be compliant might be add PV to a system which does not operate in parallel with the grid. An on-line UPS.

Set up a battery/PV hybrid (e.g. SolArk) to feed the house.
Connect grid to one or more ChargeVerter, keeping batteries from getting too low.
Keep existing NEM2 inverter on grid side.

This should let offgrid PV supply all loads it can, and charge battery.
NEM2 system usually exports 100%. It, and the grid, only supplement charge on battery feeding house as needed.
Possibly some smarter switching could reduce cycling, e.g. transfer switch house off SolArk, straight to grid, at night.
 
Hedges said:
Then a way to be compliant might be add PV to a system which does not operate in parallel with the grid. An on-line UPS.
Click to expand...
I am not surprised to find that PG&E has defined "operate in parallel" in a fairly comprehensive way. I have looked at alternate wiring topologies.However as I mentioned, Rule 21 is not a criminal statute either. Furthermore generating my own power is a property right like growing vegetables so that is my philosophy. Your mileage may vary.
 
Hedges said:
Then a way to be compliant might be add PV to a system which does not operate in parallel with the grid. An on-line UPS.

Set up a battery/PV hybrid (e.g. SolArk) to feed the house.
Connect grid to one or more ChargeVerter, keeping batteries from getting too low.
Keep existing NEM2 inverter on grid side.

This should let offgrid PV supply all loads it can, and charge battery.
NEM2 system usually exports 100%. It, and the grid, only supplement charge on battery feeding house as needed.
Possibly some smarter switching could reduce cycling, e.g. transfer switch house off SolArk, straight to grid, at night.
Click to expand...

That makes sense.

A large scale customer is supposed to tell PG&E if new local storage is planned well in advance of making such a large change in usage pattern, even if it doesn't run in parallel. I don't know if this is required for solar only or solar + storage.

But I don't see individual houses doing this as moving the needle in a meaningful way.

EDIT: also, plenty of people don't tell PG&E about big increases in residential consumption even though it helps their planning and maybe is officially required (I haven't bothered TBH b/c it wasn't obvious where to submit it, and I already did all my AHJ side stuff), so it seems unnecessary to do the opposite.
 
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