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Help, Dc to dc charger Input fried?

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LifeIsADeam

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Mar 22, 2021
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Victron orion-tr smart non isolated 12-30 installed 2-3 years ago working fine until now. Stopped charging due to low voltage input showing around 6-10v. The voltage reads 13.8 at battery while running but low at the unit. Around 6-9v measuring the negative at bus bar and positive measured at unit. As soon as i remove the input cable from unit and check again it reads around 13v. So only when wire is put into units input socket does it then drop to that low volt. To the point where the unit sometimes doesn't register via blue tooth. The cables are 8g with 1. 5m run. I know had it under wired due to some voltage drop in the past but the cables hadn't gotten hot in past checks. When i was trouble shooting the issue i removed the unit and inspected the inputs and the in port jas certainly been cooking :/ not sure why maybe a short. Anyway im not sure what going on perhaps unit has fried or died? Any advice is appreciated.
 

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The most common causes of that is excessive heat due to failing to use high strand count wire and/or failing to properly tighten the terminal, i.e., installation error.

Picture of the wire?
 
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sunshine_eggo said:
The most common causes of that is excessive head due to failing to use high strand count wire and/or failing to properly tighten the terminal, i.e., installation error.

Picture of the wire?
Click to expand...
The wire is 8 gauge. Any idea about voltage issue?
 
LifeIsADeam said:
The wire is 8 gauge. Any idea about voltage issue?
Click to expand...

Yes. You indicated that already. Picture please. You are conveniently showing a damaged Orion, but you are not showing the other component involved.

The behavior of a unit that has likely been damaged is most likely attributable to the damage.

It sounds as though it's internally shorted, which begs the question why your fuse or breaker between the Orion and battery didn't blow/trip to protect the wire.
 
Hello Sunshine - what is the difference between the products with th -tr and the ones without?
 
sunshine_eggo said:
The most common causes of that is excessive head due to failing to use high strand count wire and/or failing to properly tighten the terminal, i.e., installation error.

Picture of the wire?
Click to expand...
Sorry to disagree but I don't know anyone who ever had a failure due to excessive head. Is there even such a thing? :)
 
robbob2112 said:
what is the difference between the products with th -tr and the ones without?
Click to expand...
I read where someone said that the “TR” indicates that it has screw-down input terminals that accept bare wiring with the sheathing stripped back (as opposed to ring lugs or spade connectors, etc).

I saw a video where the poster said the "TR" indicates that the terminals are those green terminal blocks with the screws

Correction: I now see that the above statements were made respecting MPPT chargers. So, I dunno about the Orions.
 
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sunshine_eggo said:
Yes. You indicated that already. Picture please. You are conveniently showing a damaged Orion, but you are not showing the other component involved.

The behavior of a unit that has likely been damaged is most likely attributable to the damage.

It sounds as though it's internally shorted, which begs the question why your fuse or breaker between the Orion and battery didn't blow/trip to protect the wire.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your time and reply. I will get some more pictures today. The wire was courser/stiffer brittle which could indicate over heating? The input wire was fused with an 60amp anl fuse at the starter battery. Could i have over sized the fuse?
 
robbob2112 said:
difference between the products with th -tr and the ones without
Click to expand...
The Orion tr start or Orion XS is for vehicle DC to DC charging, has programmable charge profile via Bluetooth, and has settings for voltage input level a activation/deactivation, ( thus knows when the alternator is charging).

The Orion DC to DC converter, ( as Orion, OrionTR, or Orion IP 67) just does that, convert input volts to a preset ( potentiometer) output volts, or with the IP 67 versions a fixed DC output. No Bluetooth, no charge profile.
 
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LifeIsADeam said:
Any advice is appreciated
Click to expand...
Overheating terminal, perhaps poor quality cable or loose clamp. 8 awg is indersized but the drop on a 1.5M run is not excessive.
Any reduction of input volts is going to increase input current as the unit needs 400 watts input to supply the charge power of 360 watts.

When testing for volt drops also check the negative path.
 
mikefitz said:
Overheating terminal, perhaps poor quality cable or loose clamp. 8 awg is indersized but the drop on a 1.5M run is not excessive.
Any reduction of input volts is going to increase input current as the unit needs 400 watts input to supply the charge power of 360 watts.

When testing for volt drops also check the negative path.
Click to expand...
Okay thanks. I have had to re tighten the screws a few times over the past couple of years being in a bumpy campervan. I think bare wire screw clamps are not adequate and the sizing is too small. Lug connectors would have been more stable. So my guess so far is the unit has internally shorted due to poor connection/wire. Apparently the unit has an internal fuse but its non replaceable. Dang. These units are not cheap.
 
mikefitz said:
Some early Orion Tr Smart were running very hot. Victron made a manufacturing change to reduce power with increasing internal temperature. The early units will be replaced FOC. This link discussed the issue, pic is serial numbers of effected units,

Orion DC-DC overheating - Victron Community

community.victronenergy.com community.victronenergy.com

View attachment 207519
Click to expand...
Dang thanks for that information mike. Im not sure how to read the serials year, does it appear i have an earlier model? Thanks again. 20240407_082617.jpg
 
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LifeIsADeam said:
Dang thanks for that information mike. Im not sure how to read the serials year, does it appear to have an earlier model? Thanks again. View attachment 207545
Click to expand...
Also when i install the replacement unit im going to install a fan behind the fins to assist with cooling. I have a 8.5 cm computer fan and a temp sesor relay. Is there a way to hook the fan so that it turns off when vehicle is off without hooking to ignition etc? Would using units input positive for fan positive work? Thanks for any advice
 
LifeIsADeam said:
Dang thanks for that information mike. Im not sure how to read the serials year, does it appear to have an earlier model? Thanks again. View attachment 207545
Click to expand...

If I am reading this right;

2020 & 7th week ?

So earlier than the ones detailed in post 14 by @mikefitz


IMG_1389.jpeg


IMG_6835.jpeg


From the absence of your wire photo, I’m assuming you might benefit from the above Victron page. Victron “wants what they want” for those screw connections.

I have a couple of Victron MPPT 100 | 50 & I supply #6 AWG marine cable to the screw connections. #6 AWG as that is the largest wire the screw terminals can take on the
MPPT 100 | 50 ,,, over kill for my applications ( voltage drop & current );

Thread 'Portable Solar Charger'
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/portable-solar-charger.79393/

IMG_1390.jpeg

I don’t think “The Healing Shelf” is gonna work on your Orion 😳 !!
 
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Thanks @RV8R for the details about the wiring requirements for the victron screw terminals.

It is interesting that typically midnight solar uses larger strands vs these require fine strands.

Not sure that I am impressed with putting fine stranded wire, right next to the terminal with an opposite polarity and then risking screwing down onto a fire strand wire and the break risk.

To be honest, if the strand count requirement to make it work is so tight - then IMHO, the terminal block design selection is not reliable, but what do I know.

For a mobile application and 50 amps, it seems like the terminals should be ring lugs. Even an ordinary, bluesea, 30 amp fuse block uses ring lugs and has a separator in between each wire connection point. This is not new technology to have a decent connector.

ST Blade Fuse Block - 12 Circuits with Negative Bus and Cover - Blue Sea Systems

Compact ATO® / ATC® fuse block consolidates branch circuits and eliminates the tangle of in-line fuses for electronics and other appliances.
www.bluesea.com www.bluesea.com
 
HarryN said:
Thanks @RV8R for the details about the wiring requirements for the victron screw terminals.

It is interesting that typically midnight solar uses larger strands vs these require fine strands.

Not sure that I am impressed with putting fine stranded wire, right next to the terminal with an opposite polarity and then risking screwing down onto a fire strand wire and the break risk.

To be honest, if the strand count requirement to make it work is so tight - then IMHO, the terminal block design selection is not reliable, but what do I know.

For a mobile application and 50 amps, it seems like the terminals should be ring lugs. Even an ordinary, bluesea, 30 amp fuse block uses ring lugs and has a separator in between each wire connection point. This is not new technology to have a decent connector.

ST Blade Fuse Block - 12 Circuits with Negative Bus and Cover - Blue Sea Systems

Compact ATO® / ATC® fuse block consolidates branch circuits and eliminates the tangle of in-line fuses for electronics and other appliances.
www.bluesea.com www.bluesea.com
Click to expand...

Thanks for that @HarryN !!

Ah, what we put up with for those pretty data graphs 😜;

I have to put on magnifying glasses to find the “Polarity Imposters” & that sheds some light on those Criminals 😁;

IMG_7682.jpeg

Not the easiest connections I have ever made.

That MPPT 100 | 50 can take max #6 AWG ,,, then it gets #6 AWG ,,, I’m not even considering anything less than the max.
 
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LifeIsADeam said:
Also when i install the replacement unit im going to install a fan behind the fins to assist with cooling. I have a 8.5 cm computer fan and a temp sesor relay. Is there a way to hook the fan so that it turns off when vehicle is off without hooking to ignition etc? Would using units input positive for fan positive work? Thanks for any advice
Click to expand...
I’ve been using a temperature relay. It’s amazing having a probe attached to this thing to see how fast it’s get blistering hot. So I have it set to turn the fans on at around 85-90. The disadvantage here is they the van can reach that temp on a hot day just sitting there, so I have to remember to switch it off (I added a toggle). The Victron reaches 90F within minutes, at which point the charge rate gets throttled. I know the guys here are commenting on your wire strands being too thick, but I put more blame on the poor engineering of this thing.

If I were you, I’d look in to the completely redesigned 12/50amp unit without the fins. I’m going to replace my Orion 12/30 as soon as the price comes down.

Here’s that temp relay. I placed the probe on the fin under a washer with the mounting screw. Digital LED Temperature... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H2ZDDF1?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
 
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