SF Bay Area Process add DIY Off-grid Solar besides current NEM 2 Grid Tied system

aarshad81 · Apr 9, 2024

Hi I am new and building/designing a DIY off grid system

I tried searching for this specific question, but what i find is mostly questions about permitting or not. I am more interested in doing this in a somewhat legal way regarding permitting

I have a current 12.24Kwh system with two tesla power-walls. I am still using lot of energy, as we bought a Tesla Car and AC we added last year.

I want to add a DIY Off-grid Solar system on rest of my roof/garage-roof with EG4 batteries totally separate from utility. Where i would tie in the pool pump and AC. I think i have enough space to add another 8Kw system.

I do want to pull permits but do i really need to involve PGE since i dont want to be kicked from my current NEM2.0. Also depending on who i speak at PGE i am getting conflicting rapports. One rep was even telling me NEM2.0 is based on address and if i have another system on the same address, there is a change in the total system or something which didnt make sense.

How would i best go about this. Also for the permitting process i dont need anything from PGE correct

BentleyJ · Apr 9, 2024

aarshad81 said:
I want to add a DIY Off-grid Solar system on rest of my roof/garage-roof with EG4 batteries totally separate from utility. Where i would tie in the pool pump and AC. I think i have enough space to add another 8Kw system.

If its going to be an off-grid system then it has to be totally separate system with its own, new breaker panel. (unless your house already has a split bus main panel) The A/C breaker and Pool Pump breaker would have to be moved to the new panel.

aarshad81 said:
I do want to pull permits but do i really need to involve PGE since i dont want to be kicked from my current NEM2.0. Also depending on who i speak at PGE i am getting conflicting rapports. One rep was even telling me NEM2.0 is based on address and if i have another system on the same address, there is a change in the total system or something which didnt make sense.

How would i best go about this. Also for the permitting process i dont need anything from PGE correct

The answer depends on interpretation. Theoretically electrical construction that doesn't interact with the utility is out of their jurisdiction and would only require electrical/building permits. That said, the Powers That Be rarely judge things in our favor. There could be an argument made that if you add a solar system that decreases your overall utility consumption then more power will be available to be fed back into the grid by your original system. Since the original system was approved based on its size relative to your average consumption, I can see where they could consider even an off-grid system as having the equivalent effect as an additional grid-tie system. Don't want to discourage you from pursuing the new system but as CA resident myself, the permitting process is just mind boggling and often illogical.

hwy17 · Apr 9, 2024

Separate systems dedicated to powering pools are ineligible for the federal tax credit FYI. It could be questionable whether adding one other appliance really qualifies the system as for "general residential use" or whatever the language is.

If you are thinking of using a hybrid with grid backup, that won't be viewed as separate, that's interconnected. PG&E has interconnected non-export options, but you're already on an interconnected export plan, so it would probably be interpreted as an expansion of your interconnection.

If you really want to make it a totally separate system without an AC grid input, then you can expect your building department to be confused and frustrating.

Ampster · Apr 9, 2024

aarshad81 said:
I do want to pull permits but do i really need to involve PGE since i dont want to be kicked from my current NEM2.0

I am on NEM 2.0 with a GT system. I just got a permit for a SolArk with 20kWh of UL listed batteries. I do not plan on asking PG&E for permission. Your situation with an already installed Powerwall which may be under a paired storage agreement. Read that document to see how much leeway you have. PG&E has fairly inclusive language that would seem to prohibit parallel operation of a different generating facility. However I found a PG&E document entitled, Backup Power Installation Guide, which I am using to justify installing my system and am referring to my system as a Backup Power and making sure I have the correct Break Before Make switch per the Guide. My SolArk system will be used to power essential loads during the 4-9 peak period, in addition to being a source of backup power. It is definitely a grey area. To be clear, there are circumstances where you can be allowed by PG&E to add storage without kicking you into NEM 3.0, but I did not want to bother with that and wanted the flexibility to use the system without PG&E oversight. For me it was a risk management decision where the upside was worth more than the risk of the downside.

Ampster · Apr 9, 2024

hwy17 said:
If you really want to make it a totally separate system without an AC grid input, then you can expect your building department to be confused and frustrating.

It may depend on the building department. The biggest hurdle in my permit application was location of the battery pack. I chose to limit it to 20kWhs and locate it outside to avoid Fire Marshall scrutiny. My plans clearly show my SolArk connected to the grid and part of the reason is my previously approved GT system is AC coupled so that it can be used in a backup scenerio. I honestly do not think the typical building department cares about the grid interconnection process from my experience. They do care about UL listings and compliance with Rule 21. I do agree that if asked, PG&E would say my opinion is wrong, but that is why I am not asking.
EDIT: I should clarify that when you apply for a NEM agreement with PG&E they do want to see an approved building permit and before you get your PTO they want to see that permit finaled. It was my responsibility to submit that to PG&E and the building department had no interest in whether I applied to PG&E for a NEM agreement.

aarshad81 · Apr 9, 2024

Thanks guys, in my document i see the following:

A. Applicability
This Agreement applies to Electric Schedule NEM2 Customer-Generators (Customer) who interconnect a solar and/or
wind turbine electric Generating Facility, or a hybrid system of both, with an aggregate capacity of 30 kilowatts or less
that is located on Customer’s premises and that operates in parallel with PG&E’s Distribution System.
B. Permission to Operate
Customer may not operate their generator while interconnected to the PG&E system until receiving written permission
from PG&E. Unauthorized Parallel Operation could result in injury to persons and/or damage to equipment and/or
property for which the Customer may be liable.

--------------
Does this mean i cant have like a parallel system ? I wonder if i would get a permit without involving PGE. And the idea is indeed to have a complete separate system/own panel with the loads only connected to that panel.

Ampster · Apr 9, 2024

aarshad81 said:
Does this mean i cant have like a parallel system ?

Yes, that is the language that I referred to earlier.

aarshad81 said:
I wonder if i would get a permit without involving PGE.

The building permit process does not involve PG&E unless you are doing a main service panel changeout, then all PG&E needs in that situation is inspection from building department so PG&E can turn power back on. That does not apply to your situation or my situation which I described above.

400bird · Apr 9, 2024

Ampster said:
However I found a PG&E document entitled, Backup Power Installation Guide,

Here's an interesting couple lines from that document (bold emphasis mine):

"Interconnection to PG&E’s grid is governed by both federal and state
regulations for safety and reliability. All solar and renewable backup power systems must connect to the PG&E
grid."
I've never seen anything like that before.

This is the very next line, I find it funny that PGE says you can't throw a panel and battery on a night light, but that you only might need to notify them about it.
"Customers may need to notify PG&E or work with their qualified electrician or contractor to complete PG&E’s
Interconnection Application."

plympton · Apr 9, 2024

hwy17 said:
Separate systems dedicated to powering pools are ineligible for the federal tax credit FYI. It could be questionable whether adding one other appliance really qualifies the system as for "general residential use" or whatever the language is.

If you are thinking of using a hybrid with grid backup, that won't be viewed as separate, that's interconnected. PG&E has interconnected non-export options, but you're already on an interconnected export plan, so it would probably be interpreted as an expansion of your interconnection.

If you really want to make it a totally separate system without an AC grid input, then you can expect your building department to be confused and frustrating.

Do you need a permit for a portable panel, hooked to a battery that powers a pool heater? What if the battery is in the garage and the wires are buried? What if you screwed that portable panel to the garage roof? That's where I get confused. Where's the line?

plympton · Apr 9, 2024

400bird said:
Here's an interesting couple lines from that document (bold emphasis mine):

"Interconnection to PG&E’s grid is governed by both federal and state
regulations for safety and reliability. All solar and renewable backup power systems must connect to the PG&E
grid."
I've never seen anything like that before.

This is the very next line, I find it funny that PGE says you can't throw a panel and battery on a night light, but that you only might need to notify them about it.
"Customers may need to notify PG&E or work with their qualified electrician or contractor to complete PG&E’s
Interconnection Application."

Is PG&E a business? As in, are these rules just terms of service? As in, if you don't comply, we can disconnect you? Is it even... illegal? Like, what is the crime for putting up solar panels and not getting a permit?

From here: Get a plan, I read this:

For hooking up your structure to electricity, sewage, waste or any other city system, you will need a permit for that. But if you live off the grid, then permits won’t be necessary.

再生可能 エネルギー · Apr 10, 2024

Ampster said:
The biggest hurdle in my permit application was location of the battery pack.
I chose to limit it to 20kWhs and locate it outside to avoid Fire Marshall scrutiny.

Do you have any document describing the limitation to 20 kWh battery
and the requirement to install the batteries outside?

One issue when installing the batteries outside, for a DIY perspective,
is that you need to have a kind of waterproof enclosure for the batteries.

I wonder if you think that keeping the SCCs and the Inverters inside, so they don't get exposed
to the environment, and only having the batteries outside and use a passthrough for the batterie cables,
and also having an RSD outside, could be an acceptable solution?

Ampster · Apr 10, 2024

plympton said:
Like, what is the crime for putting up solar panels and not getting a permit?

Getting a permit and getting PG&E's permission are separate issues. Merging them in our minds gives too much authority to the monopolies. I believe it is a crime or a violation of a city or county ordinance to not have a building permit for improvements.. Not complying with PG&E's rules could be a contractual breach and they could deny you service. As a practical matter they could force a generating facility into an unfavorable NEM agreement like currently exists with NEM 3.0.

再生可能 エネルギー · Apr 10, 2024

Ampster said:
I honestly do not think the typical building department cares about the grid interconnection process from my experience.
They do care about UL listings and compliance with Rule 21.

The issue with Rule 21 is to find UL certified inverters, which might be an issue in particular if you have a Victron system.

Ampster · Apr 10, 2024

再生可能エネルギー said:
Do you have any document describing the limitation to 20 kWh battery
and the requirement to install the batteries outside?

No, it was the Fire Marshall rules in my County that my Engineer who drew up my plans was responding to. It may vary by city or county. My plan checklist clearly did not have to go through Fire Code review. Yes my enclosure was rated for external use and the batteries are heated. It is not just my AHJ where Fire Code issues can be a problem.

Ampster · Apr 10, 2024

400bird said:
I've never seen anything like that before

And later in the document table it says no interconnection agreement is necessary if you have a backup system with a manual switch. As with most things with regulated monopolies, there is some ambiguity.

Ampster · Apr 10, 2024

再生可能エネルギー said:
The issue with Rule 21 is to find UL certified inverters,

Yes, and since that and UL listing is a requirement of most building departments some products can't be used in many applications. In California the state publishes a list so it is not hard to find certified inverters. Some other states use the California list. There are names on that list I have never heard of. Indeed some of those are hard to find. The usual names such as, Enphase, SolarEdge, Schneider, Outback, SMA, SolArk and many others are readily available online or at local suppliers at least in my suburban region in California.

hwy17 · Apr 10, 2024

plympton said:
Is it even... illegal? Like, what is the crime for putting up solar panels and not getting a permit?

Red tags, fines, forced sales, eviction.

Ampster · Apr 10, 2024

hwy17 said:
Red tags, fines, forced sales, eviction.

Yes that is the power the AHJ has because it is a public entity which can enact laws. The Investor Owned Utilities do not have that power but Municipal Utilities run by cities or districts do have more power. Even then the public entity can only condemn and declare a dwelling uninhabitable and fine a homeowner. I do not think they can force a sale or evict a tenant directly. Indirectly that action by an AHJ can indirectly cause the mortgage holder to force a sale.

timselectric · Apr 10, 2024

plympton said:
Do you need a permit for a portable panel, hooked to a battery that powers a pool heater? What if the battery is in the garage and the wires are buried? What if you screwed that portable panel to the garage roof? That's where I get confused. Where's the line?

Portable appliances do not require a permit or inspection.
The difference between Portable and permanent is whether it is mounted to a structure.
Basically, if it can be relocated without the use of tools, it's Portable.

plympton · Apr 10, 2024

timselectric said:
Portable appliances do not require a permit or inspection.
The difference between Portable and permanent is whether it is mounted to a structure.
Basically, if it can be relocated without the use of tools, it's Portable.

So you're saying that if my panels were held on to my garage roof via clips...

With these questions, I'm not trying to stir things up - just genuinely curious. I do most of my own work, and generally don't ask for permission before starting. I buy good UL listed gear, the right size cables and connectors, make it safe. However, I also make sure the vast majority of things won't impede the resale of my house down the line - I could remove or disable my solar install in less than a day if necessary.

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